Experienced Ren'ai Game & Dating Sim Players?

[Sai]

You win the girl's heart, good ending.

Yeah, almost always this is the main aim. It's all about getting a resolution/conclusion (whatever it may be). But that really is the basis of all plotlines I think. A massive amount of movies/books/games are all about "beat the bad guy/organisation, good ending". But how exactly the bad guy is defeated and what this means for the characters involved isn't always the same. Usually once you get one good ending in a movie/book things really can't go further than than that. Except in a game you get to go back and change that 1 ending to result in more varied resolutions. And of course the paths towards getting there is always different.
But I realise that this is all stuff you may only realise once actually`delving into a given genre.

But you know interestingly enough I have thought about a similar thing once except with an adventure game. I think it'd be cool if after you 'save the world' you could get to randomnly wander and see how saving the world affected each of the people in each town that you met before when everything was in danger

Thing is, people with relationships will find this samey after a game or two. There are no problem solving issues, no games focused on sustaining rather than just getting a relationship.

I'd think if someone is in a relationship and happens to play such games, it'd be all the better because you can identify with the characters all the more in their predicament of 'finding love', even if they've 'been there' done that'. Unlike perhaps someone who isn't in one and doesn't care for relationships or romance. But naturally this isn't always going to be the case.
But I think once you 'pursue' one character's path you get to do 'problem solving' and 'sustaining'. Not after the fact usually no although no doubt, in the vast world of Japanese renai games, there are probably games that explore that option (like the Memories Off example).

So, in short when I play the games she feels real, the story feels real, but not my relationship with her. It's always a romantic relationship, never a loving one.

When I play an RPG I am stepping into another characters shoes and with bishoujo games I actually take the same stance and perceive it as playing a different character. So in such an instance I guess its not an issue.

I can see your point though and generalisations will happen. "All generalisations are wrong" (get the joke? ). But seriously, you're right that from an outside perspective it is easy to make a mistake when assessing things. Just like some people assume that all anime is "adult porn" whilst others assume it's all "kids stuff". These statements refer to the same thing but contradict each other.
But of course those who actually watch a variety of anime can experience that there *is* variety and be more informed as a result. For renai games I think that the possibilities are endless and whilst the bare skeleton bones of a renai game may be similar from one to the next, as is common in media that fits under a genre label, the depth at which such games can go to build upon that is interesting and if people assume they're the sum of one part then it's in their interest to be informed of their other options (liken on this panel? ...), which they can take or leave.

In fact I have played several English titles that were very good porn games. Instant action, lots of girls and variations, it's actually very much the point of a sex game. And I don't find that if someone enjoys a non-plot sex game it automatically makes him a brainwashed idiot. It especially doesn't mean that a Horny Bunnies is a bad game, because it doesn't meet literary standards.

Simply - it fits the purpose it sets out to do. Therefore its a successful game in its individual aim. And people that enjoy them aren't 'idiots' (sorry if it appeared as if I was saying that) because thats simply what their purpose are for and they are personally happy with that purpose. If a game set out to be a philosophical account of some deep meaning and didn't deliver then it would probably be considered "bad". But not when it aims to be a game that has a sexual focus and delivers upon that. It's just when people assume that other games within the same genre which do not have the same focus are unsuccessful it is problematic in my opinion for those who would rather have the option to play such games. Because then they are limited to the perceptions of the majority who have the power of greater cash flow But I think this is simply a fact of the genre as it seems a perception that is even in Japan. As I heard Clannad, which apparently was a bold move for Key to remove any sex, wasn't as successful as their previous games due to this decision. But still there is a wide variety of games out there in this genre so there are those that strike a balance. And it'd be nice if people were made more aware of the fact that there is a variety of options out there so that they can be more informed and make a decision as to what they personally want from such games.

There's certainly no blame to be laid because the players are just going off what they see available and the importers are just going off what the players seem to buy (it is a business after all).

Anyway interesting points Sorry if any of this sounds off, in a bit of a rush!

EDIT: Nevermind. I was gonna try and do a video thingy but then realised how useless I am at video editing

[papillon]

Figures of Happiness *sort of* has you dealing with an existing relationship rather than just finding and winning girls...

First Date = Happy Ending does give me twitches for realism problems. Since Kishi Kawaii is *not* a dating sim, I don't want to really drag out and add lots of choices to the few relationships you can actually have inside the game (as opposed to the description of marriage-in-the-future you get with normal endings). But at the same time, it feels really strange to have a proposal of marriage leading to a special ending on the very first date. My compromise is to require a lot of interaction before that date happens, so at least it's not TOO out of the blue that they want to spend their lives with you...

[Piroshiki]

It's always a romantic relationship, never a loving one.

Again, it depends on what the story is about. I don't really play many sims (only TokiMemo, in fact), but I'd expect most of them to follow the "building up romance -> first date/kiss/sex/whatever -> happy ending" formula. On the other hands, a fairly high number of visual novel-type games go for the "build up romance -> first date/kiss/sex/whatever -> drama -> solve drama -> happy ending" formula. Taking Akane's scenario in One as an example...

In the beginning, Kouhei (your character) and Akane don't know each other at all. So you spend the first part of the game getting her events until Christmas, like you would for any other girl. If you got it right, you'll officially enter Akane's scenario. Eventually, Kouhei asks Akane on a date, which she refuses (it's actually a pretty funny scene). She shows up anyway, and that's when they first kiss and officially start going out (if you can call that going out...). Later in the scenario, the two of them go buy waffles and eat them at Kouhei's place - in the adult version, that's when Akane's sex scene takes place. And then, the drama part kicks in; you learn more about Kouhei and go on a last date with Akane. You can still get a bad ending there, mind you. If you play it right, *then* you'll get the happy ending.

Though I'll give it to you that the relationship kind of takes a backseat during the drama part to leave room for the story to progress...

In School Days, the game really begins after the first chapter, once your friend has hooked you up with a girl from next class and then kisses you. Depending on the path you take from there, you can get an ending ranging from a harem one to rather interesting bad endings such as

getting stabbed to death by your friend while she's pregnant from you.

Anyway, just pointing out that saying "every game ends after first date/first sex" isn't exactly right...

[mikey]

You convinced me. No really, I do admit that was a generalization and as Sai pointed out they are all wrong ^_^. There are good stories, I actually looked up several of the synopses for the mentioned titles and so on - and surely that statement about ending with a date (just as any other statement) isn't all black and white if you look closely.

There will still have to be a game that has to personally prove this to me though (it will have to be English), because I can't understand Japanese. Tough luck.

[PyTom]

There will still have to be a game that has to personally prove this to me though (it will have to be English), because I can't understand Japanese. Tough luck.

Hm... What about the true ending to Heart de Roomate, which IIRC takes place a year or so after the rest of the game. Just one that came to mind offhand.

I think it's just easier to tell interesting stories about the start (or end) of relationships then the (hopefully) long part in the middle. Moments of transition are in general more interesting than moments of continuity.

[mikey]

I'd also say Tsukushite Agechau 4 had this, a kind of a very (very) extended epilogue. And I will agree on the continuity=boring part. It made me realize that it's more or less the point I wanted to bring across (thanks for the impulse), as there are very good and interesting ways to make the transition moments enjoyable, while the times of continuity feel largely uneventful. Perhaps the VN/DS gameplay doesn't work well with those, because as has been proven they're not entirely absent, but somehow they never play the dominant role.

[Sai]

It's a good point really. Like I said about that adventure game, as with many games and stories in any media it all ends when you've saved the world and you don't really get to explore how this big change you made to the world affected each of the people you met during the course of the game. But as a friend pointed out to me this would take a lot of extra programming for something just as a fun bonus 'after the fact' so to speak. It would end up like an on-going "Sims" or "Fable" type thing for it to not appear stale and boring after 5 minutes with no aims or going round in circles. In real life we want the 'mundane' happiness but in fiction we want something more challenging and "Mr Samson was happy and ate pie" doesn't make sales but conflicts do. So with a renai game that goes on after the "happy ending" it might take a lot of extra programming for something without a real aim, goal or definite conclusion. In other words, where would it end? Sure you would get to have good times with him/her maybe and talk and mess up and have to make up and all that, but that all happens whilst getting to know each other anyway over the course of the game and if you're just continually picking up the relationship to 'sustain it', it might turn out like more of a continual "Raising Simulation" theme then. Which is good if someone can program it so it is adaptive enough to not become reptitive and if it's going to be utilised enough to make sales (if they plan to sell it).
But you probably just mean in terms of fleshing out the "happy ending".

[papillon]

(Does the moderator have powers to move this discussion into its own thread? It's interesting but getting off-topic from the original question... if the original poster cares about that. )

A game purely about sustaining a relationship (as opposed to just making things last a bit longer after the first date) would probably need other goals as well. After all, it's not that hard to keep a relationship going in the real world if you can devote 100% of your attention to that relationship. But you can't - you've got to deal with work and school and household chores and budget balancing and screaming children and...

You could make a game about being a superhero with a secret identity - your wife doesn't know what you do in your spare time! So you've got to keep the secret, keep the city safe, maintain your civilian persona, AND try to make your wife happy. Keep track of what excuses you've used so far this month! Bring her treats from Paris while you fly around the world! Don't let the female supervillain rip your clothes off!

(No, I'm not planning on doing this.)

[Sai]

You could make a game about being a superhero with a secret identity - your wife doesn't know what you do in your spare time! So you've got to keep the secret, keep the city safe, maintain your civilian persona, AND try to make your wife happy. Keep track of what excuses you've used so far this month! Bring her treats from Paris while you fly around the world! Don't let the female supervillain rip your clothes off!

(No, I'm not planning on doing this.)

Reminds me of the TV sitcom "My Hero" except in that the wife does know the secret identity of her partner. But the fact he has to rush off and save the world still proves to be a problem sometimes when trying to have a relationship, plus volcano stains just won't seem to come out when doing laundry which is surely a bigger issue than saving a village (kidding).

And erm yes, "topic"!? Oh yeah....