Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

[Aleema]

@PyTom: I remember a recent call-to-arms to fix a minority of BxG games in this forum, and all of the arguments being argued here can be easily applied to that movement, which should help show you how absurd those arguments are.

@HigurashiKira: are you ... what? where did you ... I am so confused right now. Was that ugly/unappealing comment an actual response to me saying "sexy women are okay"? Or do you believe that what I secretly meant was "all women should wear burqas"? Help me out here.

In regards to Bayonetta, the Strong Female Character is mistaken as female empowerment often. Bayonetta specifically is a bit complicated, but in general, she's just this. Women should definitely get the chance to be strong, but only doing so if she's sexed up is problematic.

[PyTom]

I remember a recent call-to-arms to fix a minority of BxG games in this forum, and all of the arguments being argued here can be easily applied to that movement, which should help show you how absurd those arguments are.

I don't know about that. If you look at how I reacted to that - the solutions I proposed, and so on - they were always of the "more things are better" approach. Opening, for example, a BxG forum is spending my resources to promote things I like. The eventual solution - increasing the number of threads displayed in the forum overview - also helped by expanding the idea-market so more things could thrive.

I think that's the equivalent to opening a new shop, in this scenario.

BTW, stepping back from my own views and putting the admin hat on for a moment, let me just say that this has been a really good thread. It's given me a lot of things to think about, and we've been able to keep it civil. So that's a great thing that we should be proud of.

[Aleema]

You're right, it's not a perfect analogy because you are in power (and have created Ren'Py to help the games you like already). As you said, you are spending your resources for the games you like, however, you need to pretend that you are not in power, and that only women who enjoyed GxB are, that that was always true, and then you should have your answers. For example, you would be told that the structure of the system would not have to change at all to accommodate you, because you should go off and make your own forum to prove that your games need to exist. And borrowing other's arguments, that you shouldn't complain about the lack of BxG because Katawa Shojo exists, or for that matter, Tetris (yes, that's my favorite). And also that the correct way to voice dissatisfaction is not to do so. Okay, I ran with the analogy instead of letting you explore it on your own. The situations are still not equatable, but if we can reverse perspectives for a moment, we might be able to understand each other a bit better.

[Ramidel]

The idea that gamers of any stripe "should" be able to communicate with the larger companies is, unfortunately, somewhat idealistic. In the modern gaming world, the objective is usually not to make a game that gamers want, but a game that Marketing thinks it can sell. Fanbases are notoriously unpleasable; math, marketing trends, and focus groups are seen as a more reliable source of bang for buck than trying to collate the opinions of the fans. Thus, female cheesecake is a reliable way of getting quick sales (why do you think that Evony has so many players shelling out cash to get ahead?). That's what works, so that's what's done. Pretty boys and beefcake are both far more unreliable.

What I think females can do, honestly, is encourage and support JRPGs and JRPG artwork*. In my experience, by and large, the majority of characters in JRPGs, male or female, can be sexualized or not, so long as there's at least one fanservice female (sigh); even then, FFVII got away without anything more than Tifa and Sephiroth. Between JRPGs and Bioware (I don't think we need to say much more about Bioware's sterling track record on the subject, even if, yes, we get more female ass than male), the RPG genre might be able to cut out the tradition of female-as-sex-object.

* On the other hand, companies may not want female players. I know that on TV, a show that's getting high viewing figures from the wrong demographic is in serious trouble, but I don't know if this extends to the gaming industry.

[Aleema]

Pretty boys and beefcake are both far more unreliable.

Nope. I'm not even sure why you would say this, as there is absolutely no proof of this. Have you seen the popularity of Twilight and Justin Bieber? Even though they both receive large amounts of hate, the market for them is still extremely strong. As for video games specifically, Jack Norton actually has proof otherwise. Winter Wolves's games now includes both male and female perspectives, to his advantage, and his highest selling games are otome, and has several plans set in motion to make more. (He even goes so far as to say that his male-centric games are the most pirated.) Moral of the story? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that no one else does.

Bioware (I don't think we need to say much more about Bioware's sterling track record on the subject, even if, yes, we get more female ass than male)

It's not sterling, as you just conceded. Beyond inside the game itself, the marketing decisions and company decisions have been markedly discriminatory as well. FemShep wasn't even acknowledged as a possibility until enough people shouted at them to put her in advertising, even the game box. (Who says complaining gets you no where?) And now she is ... except, they put the canon FemShep into a beauty pageant to be reduced right back down to eye candy only. They didn't do that with MaleShep. Dragon Age? They stopped producing DLC after the female love interests were dealt with, despite previously saying they would continue. No Alistair or Zevran content. Kinda a slap in the face. So it's more than just butt shots. It's more than just Bioware, even. It's the narrow-minded thinking that women don't have marketable interests.

On the other hand, companies may not want female players.

That's called sexism.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Yes, it's been a pretty good thread ^_^ Despite how frustrating the issue can be for pretty much everyone, it's nice to be able to talk about it without it reducing to trolling and all sorts of nastiness. Even if we are bickering, at least it's civilised bickering.

I think it's important to remember women aren't asking for an end to all the stuff guys enjoy. We understand what guys like and why. We have our own tastes that make guys cringe after all, it would be hypocritical to demand an end to everything. It's more about options and variation, as well as a little more mindfulness in the implications of the messages they might be exclusively sending as a large group. It's not the fact that eye candy women exist, it's the fact that they almost exclusively exist. It's not that guys enjoy looking at that stuff, it's that there are no options for other people and that the messages can be a little dangerous sometimes (such as the slut shaming quest in Skyrim. The fact it existed wasn't what worried people, it was the lack of choice involved). It's really a lot more complicated than this is for guys and this is for girls. It's a reflection of our society and so nothing is ever going to be easy when it comes to that. Humans can be painfully difficult.

And sexy women are awesome, just get her boobs right and give her a personality and we are off to a good start.

[DaFool]

I don't know if I should be disclosing about this, but one of the groups I'm working with expressed some reservations about the state of the VN market even despite planning to set up shop

this coming year, despite the relative popularity of their debut freeware title. Note that they specialize in male-centric titles (BxG, GxG).

I think the reason why Shira-Oka did well was it's Tokimeki Memorial approach was very female-friendly so it captured a lot of the player base that purchased RPG Maker games. It was the

top seller on Impulse despite being panned in all the hardcore Japanophile sites (mainly due to its 'outdated' graphics). The issue was not if it's BxG or GxB... it's if it's the sort of

BxG (or male-oriented GxG, etc.) that would be appealing to girls or not.

I remember reading a comment on VNDB regarding Fading Hearts, that it's not for "us" (the "us" of course being the hardcore, usually male, JVN demographic) and that is partly why EVNs are

more often than not featured on casual sites (Jayisgames, female demographic), while it's always the translated JVNs featured on hardcore sites(Siliconera,Tigsource). Papillon also

mentioned getting something like zero sales of the all-ages Mangagamer titles she affiliates. So clearly there are multiple market bases at work here, and they intersect much less than I

originally thought.

It's kinda worrisome for me because I know for a fact Elspeth's Garden has among the best-written, non-pandering female characters around (and there are plenty of them). But since I

started the project as my own personal grid-based battle replacement for Valkyria Chronicles ever since that franchise started going downhill -- remember it was mentioned VC1 had like 95%

male player base. Similarly, EG has a very strong militaristic theme which I know will turn off a good portion of potential female players who would have considered it to begin with (then

again, I haven't yet exactly started plastering pics of the bishounen characters so who knows?)

I think it's kinda telling that I, -- who never really set out to specifically make GxB or 'Otome' games -- am musing such projects in the far future (after our magnum opuses or games we

really wanted to make ever since a long time ago are done). Just as there are BxG which are more 'approachable' to the female demographic, I know exactly what kind of GxB (or even just

basic non-fanservice female protagonist game) will be approachable for the male demographic. Something like Sharnoth, for instance, but with a less shoujo-style heroine. The potential for

supportive "Yay!" kinda posts is actually quite attractive. It's one thing to make a game and be bludgeoned by critics -- at least they're playing the game... but it's another thing

entirely to make a game you know is genuinely good and receive deathly silence (especially if it's free so comments is all you're living off). Because right now the hardcore JVN BxG

demographic seems like the 'deathly silent' crowd. Thinking about that market makes you not want to release publicly and instead hold the game hostage with "Ask me if you want a copy."

[Ramidel]

That's called sexism.

Well, there's your problem then. But if sexism is the root of the problem, I'm curious how you think that females proving that they can be a market too will change that. At best, VNs might seriously break across the Atlantic, and I'm skeptical on that score; the gaming industry is dominated by companies like Activision Blizzard, Ubisoft and Bethesda, and possibly more importantly, by retailers like Wal-Mart.

Do you really think that indie games catering to women will be able to damage the big boys' sales? I think that actually hurting the existing gaming industry is necessary to change the market. Otherwise, the entry point for gamers, men and women alike, will always be games like Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft and Assassin's Creed, and those games (by men and for men) will continue to inform the expectations of gamers and trigger threads like this one.

[Taosym]

On the other hand, companies may not want female players.

That's called sexism.

Possibly, or the game might not be aimed at women. Have you ever stood up and looked at something like Sex And The City, Glee or Twilight and proclaimed "This is wrong! This is sexist, there's nothing here for guys!". That's because you, naturally can only perceive what you as a person, or you as a female player might think. You can't perceive what a male player might think. There are shows and games where women are the target demographic. There are stores and clothing where the women are the target demographic. Is that sexist?

I recently listened to a podcast of a panel at Gencon last year about women in video games. The panel was all women. The overwhelming response to a character like Bayonetta was, she owns her sexuality. She's sexy because she wants to be. She kicks ass, she's powerful and she's sexy. If that is not the ultimate female empowerment, what is? It just so happens that men find powerful women sexy. So is powerful women sexist too? Where is the line drawn?

[Counter Arts]

One thing that I've heard nearly consistently in almost every social science university course was the hidden messages that the "media" send. (sexuality, family therapy, feminism, etc...) Forget children... adults are still susceptible somewhat to the media messages that is sent. Especially people who are trying to learn an unfamiliar culture they are now swimming in.

Even though I didn't think much about those "messages" at first, I started to be really conscious of the really subtle messages I sent when making Fading Hearts.

I can't remember all the subtle messages I left behind in Fading Hearts saying things like "Girls are strong", "Girls are smart", and "Some girls hide their strength to be more attractive". I know it sounds like giving the opposite unsubstantiated messages than what the mass media gives you. I just find out stuff and combine it with what I observe.

"Girls are smart" comes from 61% of university grads are women in 2007 for Canada. Current or recent students may want to check the honour roll listings. Kinda influenced in Fading Hearts by Ryou having a lower average than Claire and Rina.

"Girls are strong" comes being in a high school known for their female athletes, especially the rugby and wrestling team. Nearly all of them were extremely attractive as well. This comes out as at least 3 cute girls in Fading Hearts being overwhelmingly strong should they decide to show it.

"Some girls hide their strength to be more attractive" comes from hearing stories about guys being unable to deal with things like their girlfriend/wife making more money than they do. Also a rant from a girl I talked to in a social science university course. One can make a theory from the socialization of "Guys should be the breadwinner" about why this is so. I can name at least 3 girls that does this in Fading Hearts though it is spoiler territory. One girl does it VERY actively.

The points I'm making here are intended as examples of what could come out as messages in these kinds of games. Yes... they are feminist-ally aligned (interestingly second-wave and not third-wave which I would be more of) but that's not the point. It's more to help everyone to become more aware of the messages they send when making games.

Oh man... now I have a sudden urge to try and make an otome game that is marketable to guys as well. I kinda done the opposite already.

[Aleema]

Otherwise, the entry point for gamers, men and women alike, will always be games like Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft and Assassin's Creed, and those games (by men and for men) will continue to inform the expectations of gamers and trigger threads like this one.

You're right. My first game love was Warcraft. One. The RTS. I didn't even own a computer, but I had the game disc, so I snuck onto the computers at school and my friends' houses. Their parents were like "you really like that game, don't you?" Hell yeah, I'm a fucking Warcraft fangirl. And I played the hell out of Starcraft, too! I just got Assasins' Creed: Revelations for Christmas and I almost teared up from how perfect an Xmas gift it was. Being told that none of those games wanted me as a player, makes me want to punch things, and lets me know how absolutely wrong that is. I'm pretty sure they'll take my money as much as yours.

For your indie vs AAA games, indie games are an excellent example of how the gaming industry could be if the guys in charge stopped being selfish and narrow-minded. It may or may not be a catalyst (I'm betting it will) to great change, but it is a direct reflection of what could be. Had Bioware actually made the Alistair DLC, they would have seen sales through the goddamned roof.

Possibly, or the game might not be aimed at women. Have you ever stood up and looked at something like Sex And The City, Glee or Twilight and proclaimed "This is wrong! This is sexist, there's nothing here for guys!".

Yes, I do. Know why? Because I am constantly told so. Thanks, internet, but what happens if someone mentions that something might be sexist towards women? Basically, this. (Also, I'm not even sure why you mentioned Glee as being sexist towards men. I don't watch the show, but I know enough to be confused here.) The space for men to air out their grievances about things they might find sexist is plentiful and supported, but if someone says "that might be sexist towards women," then a wave comes in explaining to us why it's not, and if it is, it's okay. Not cool.

In this thread, you will find many sentiments that say (even on this very page): having things aimed at guys is okay. Having ALL things aimed at guys is not okay. If you make a game aimed at men, don't expect women to share the same game experience, and don't, for the love of god, passive-aggressively not believe them when they say so. Dating sims are all about sexuality, so they're not particularly what this discussion is about. We are talking about games in general. Video games aren't just for men, and neither should any general media or genre be. If you want to defend that they are, then that's what I'm calling shenanigans on.

And since you want to say that, as a woman, I cannot see from a male point of view, I give you with this quote:

Because of the way cultural dominance/privilege works, marginalized people are, by necessity and unavoidability, more knowledgeable about the lives of privileged people than the other way around.

It means that, I have grown up in a male-centric society where I am forced to look at everything from a male POV, and often rarely my own. A woman will often know more about men than a man may know about women. It's not fair to anyone, really.


@Everyone:
By the way, that came from Feminism 101, and I urge all to read it when you can. And actually reading what others are saying in this thread (and this one, too, since it's actually discussing that very podcast Taosym is referring to), instead of jumping to conclusions. It saves us all some typing.

P.S.: If you want to discuss sexism against men, you're allowed to start your own thread - bringing a discussion about a marginalized demographic constantly back to another, not marginalized one is very insensitive, but not unexpected, unfortunately. Still, it's called derailing, to silence discussion on an issue, and it would be awesome if people would stop doing that.

P.P.S: Referring to women primarily as "females" is kinda creepy ...

[KimiYoriBaka]

@aleema: I think you're overreacting taosym's post. As far as I can tell, the point was that the reasoning for a specific opinion or desire can have multiple possibilities. More specifically, that not all discrimination is actually intended as such.

also,

A woman will often know more about men than a man may know about women.

This reasoning is incredibly flawed. the initial premise of one demographic knowing the thinking of another has the problem that it generalizes the entire demographic. It doesn't address the fact that each person is a combination of several demographics and that any one person can be a drastic exception. I don't mean to take the slippery slope argument, but this type of reasoning has the same root as the sexism you're complaining about.

oh and since I'm posting anyway, on the topic of other media and their statistic, I don't think the argument of movies and even indie games showing what mainstream games could be works with regard to the thinking of the major gaming companies. The audience they want to focus on is the people who their games. Specifically, they most often want to target the hardcore gamers who they feel will keep dishing out the cash over and over again. The growing majority of female gamers isn't as trustworthy to a marketing guy trying to hold on to his long-standing conventions. They need to be shown that those gamers they aren't attending to will be willing to keep on buying their games.

[Aleema]

@KimiYoriBaka: Please don't take this personally, but:
Anything You Can Do
But I'm Not Like That - Stop Stereotying!
You're As Bad As They Are!
You're Just Oversensitive
Just pointing out that focusing on how I say things, instead of what I'm saying, dismisses anything I might have had to say.

You're right, saying "all women ___" and "all men ___" is sexist, and I didn't say that, but that's neither here nor there. Pointing out that a patriarchy exists is not sexist - justifying it, is. Because, as Fem101 says, "Either we stand to be marginalized by privilege or stand to benefit from it."

Also, I hope you're not saying that movies, in general, are for men? Or video games, for that matter? If we want to throw down the "missed the point" card, then allow me to whip it out right here. If I play their games, and am a hardcore gamer, then what you said directly applies to me, doesn't it? Saying females (ugh, women) aren't trustworthy investments is exactly the problem I am speaking of. It's kinda sorta totally completely utterly wrong.

Edit: I will apologize that the majority of what I said seems to be aimed at Taosym, and it's not. I am responding to the posters in this thread in general, so I'm sorry, Taosym, if it seems like I was ganging up on you.

[KimiYoriBaka]

It's kinda sorta totally completely utterly wrong.

Yes. I know. I'm saying that the only way to convince the major companies of that is to make it clear that the female gaming population won't ever go away.

Also, I pointed out that flaw because I felt that it carried over to your argument against taosym's point about automatically assuming the problem is sexism. Yes, it is bad that so many game companies feel the need to exclude female audience, but it does make a difference whether that problem is because of genuine views against women or just them being silly people. If it's the latter, then the market should naturally shift towards equality just with how things are. If it's the former, then there needs to first be a change in personel, which means it'll take longer as the companies that do address the female audience will need to beat the rest financially.

[Aleema]

I know what you're saying, and I've been in your shoes before. (I've been called misogynistic before.) However, what you are doing is playing the Devil's Advocate, whether you realize it right now or not ... Feminists, therefore women in general, have enough actual devils fighting against them that they don't need anymore people finding some way to undercut them or their message. Saying that a feminist is getting their message across the wrong way, as if there was an actually wrong way to do that (outside of long chains of name-calling) is totally unhelpful and can be misconstrued as being against the movement completely, especially if the proposed "right" way is being passive and not drawing any attention to yourself.

I just retweeted this, but I think it's appropriate to link this now (warning: very graphic language), before I take a break from this thread. Though, I am not calling anyone here misogynistic or sexist, not even game developers. There is sexism in the industry, but I'm not going to put labels on the people. You can put whatever hat you want on it: call it lazy, call it silly, call them mentally retarded, it's still the same, offensive thing. The correct way to get change is still: any way you can.