Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#226 Post by DragoonHP » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:52 am

DragoonHP wrote:But you did, and you wouldn't be the first to do it. Games are generally geared at males. That is why people are saying men have the benefit in this aspect. It's also very hard to change because people sometimes don't see a problem where others do. Read this, I really mean it. These are the attitudes against females having a part in games, and is generally what we are talking about. It's not reprsentatory of all men, or all gamers, but it does exist. Once you read a couple of the posts you can probably get an idea of what is going on against female game development. All I am asking for is a little understanding of the situation as a whole (talking purely about games).
I apologise again; it might seem something like I am just throwing these apologies out of the blue, but I mean them. It's just that from where I started reading (1,2 then 8 and onwards) most of the talk has steered away from the gaming industry, only some snippets of pointing towards them. And that, unfortunately, had formed my views about the discussion that had been going on in these threads.
And I agree; stereotype had formed in every industry about almost everything and female portrayal is unfortunately one of them.
Mink wrote:@DragoonHP: ...You're really missing the point. We're talking about women here because that is the TOPIC. If you want to start a topic about men how hard it is to be a man, or problems men face, fine, go ahead. That is not the topic here.
Call me an idiot, but posting anything sensible here that opposes the women makes it out-of-topic. Do you think you can have a sensible discussion without someone providing you arguments you can actually think on.
Or is this supposed to be some kind of one-sided discussion where you either agree or don't post. If this is indeed that type of thread, I don't know what to say.

And I never intended to talk about how hard it is for men, because it is err... stupid, foolish, waste of time. Everyone have some hardships they need to go through, let it be male or female. But making an issue out of it is a problem.
Mink wrote: But yes, disregard the entire post because of that one line; I'm sure next I'll get something along the lines of the 'tone' argument, and how I should be nice or polite, even though up to this point I've had the patience of a saint.
The thing is, I didn't bother reading past that; humans have a weird habit of making assumptions and I made my assumptions after reading the first line.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#227 Post by Mink » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:23 am

DragoonHP wrote:
Mink wrote:@DragoonHP: ...You're really missing the point. We're talking about women here because that is the TOPIC. If you want to start a topic about men how hard it is to be a man, or problems men face, fine, go ahead. That is not the topic here.
Call me an idiot, but posting anything sensible here that opposes the women makes it out-of-topic. Do you think you can have a sensible discussion without someone providing you arguments you can actually think on.
Or is this supposed to be some kind of one-sided discussion where you either agree or don't post. If this is indeed that type of thread, I don't know what to say.

And I never intended to talk about how hard it is for men, because it is err... stupid, foolish, waste of time. Everyone have some hardships they need to go through, let it be male or female. But making an issue out of it is a problem.
Okay, let me put it this way: your post came off like you were saying, "But men have it bad too! Here's why, with these links about what's wrong with feminism." Or: turning it to be about men, and how men are oppressed. That's derailing. One of the links I had even mentioned derailing arguments people make. (And see my second response below)

And okay, fine, you did say you didn't intend to do that, but while I could get into intentions, I won't. I'll leave it at that. Besides, maybe Auro put it more eloquently.
The thing is, I didn't bother reading past that; humans have a weird habit of making assumptions and I made my assumptions after reading the first line.
Then it's your problem for making assumptions in the first place. I didn't even pick YOU out in particular with that, and farther down I even say how discussions about women tend to turn into, "But what about men?" I could have clarified, if it wasn't clear to you to begin with, but you instead jumped to making assumptions.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#228 Post by DragoonHP » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:50 am

Mink wrote:Okay, let me put it this way: your post came off like you were saying, "But men have it bad too! Here's why, with these links about what's wrong with feminism." Or: turning it to be about men, and how men are oppressed. That's derailing. One of the links I had even mentioned derailing arguments people make. (And see my second response below)

And okay, fine, you did say you didn't intend to do that, but while I could get into intentions, I won't. I'll leave it at that. Besides, maybe Auro put it more eloquently.
Actually, the thread has gone through major phases of derailment and had just recently steered on it;s supposed path, but let's just not talk about that.

And as you have read in my reply to Auro-Cyanide, I agree with that.
Mink wrote:Then it's your problem for making assumptions in the first place. I didn't even pick YOU out in particular with that, and farther down I even say how discussions about women tend to turn into, "But what about men?" I could have clarified, if it wasn't clear to you to begin with, but you instead jumped to making assumptions.
I know that I was at fault for making assumptions, but it was like screaming, "YOU ARE THE KILLER... ... only if you have the knife." (Not a good analogy, but I hope it did get my point across.)
I was bound to react when faced with such harsh comments, keeping in mind that reply came right after my post.

And considering your second point, I wouldn't have bothered asking "But what about men?" because the first line of your that post would have made it crystal clear for me.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#229 Post by B E A N » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:09 am

Okay, I have to say something to this. Even though this entire discussion has been quite a bit of tl;dr for me. Even though I think that both sides have a bit of a valid point.

Me, I'm a man. I think male thoughts and I do manly stuff. I enjoy things that were created to be enjoyed by men, and I have a hard time enjoying things that were created to be enjoyed by women. (Though there are a few slight exceptions for certain shoujo manga... but I digress.)

Even worse, I, myself, create things that are meant to be enjoyed by men. I write porn.

I've been writing porn for over ten years now. I've published a bit in small indie magazines in my home country (where these indie magazines are a rather natural part of our red-light society), I've published some in adult-content oriented forums, you'll find some of my stories in erotica fiction archives (though under a different name, and no, I'm not giving it away; a few of these stories I'm not proud of). Most of the porn I write, I write for myself - I sometimes download free porn pictures from porn promo sites and invent stories that revolve around these pictures. I don't publish these, they are for my private entertainment only. However, I do publish erotic short fiction in forums.

Imagine my surprise when I found out one day that I had a few female fans. Not many, mind you, but I was getting enthusiastic comments from some women who felt that even male-oriented pornography gave them something they liked. (Might have been because most of my stories actually revolve around female protagonists which would make them "otome" in the language of this forum, wouldn't it?) I didn't expect it at all, of course, but it taught me an important lesson:

People will often not care what something was created for as long as they can personally enjoy it.

So there are many games for men, and there are not that many games for women. Why is that a problem the people who make games should worry about? Isn't it a problem of the people who play them? If YOU can't enjoy one of my stories, why should I write different stories. You don't like it, and that's okay; I don't force you to read it. But don't come complaining to be because "I don't write anything you find enjoyable to read".

Sheesh. Why do we even have a feminism debate here? Male game-makers aren't oppressing the female gamers here, or somehow pushing female-oriented games out of the market. What do you expect us men to change with this debate?

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#230 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:37 am

@DragoonHP. Thank you for understanding. I know you meant no harm with it (and frankly some male issues are of serious concern to me when things have gone wildly tangent of their intentions) so there is no problem. This thread had been derailed badly at a number of points, which happens often with these types of discussions, so I don't blame you for getting the wrong end of the stick. It's mostly because people aren't looking at the same thing the same way and so we all end up talking about different things. I, ah, actually meant to link a post within my comment as I was not referring to this thread, but it weirdly made sense anyway. This is what I was referring to http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mens- ... s-now.html . It's not that they are saying these things, because that is a part of free speech, but the common thread that lies in all these arguments that highlights deeper social issues (that female empowerment is 'alarming' and 'unrealistic'). I think these issues need to be understood so that they can be addressed as game development moves forward. I said before that I don't want to fight males every step of the way or have female perspective segregated away to its own games. I think through understanding the issue more and spreading that knowledge around, hopefully things can move in a more positive direction.

@B E A N, you really should read the thread when you get the chance, since what you think we are saying isn't what we said at all. You are making assumptions. No where have we asked for male content to end. All we have advocated is to be treated with some respect and for people to maybe understand our perspective a little. Greater understanding can go a long way when people are trying to sell games to us, since our money is as good as anyone else's. Also, please see the link above that I gave to DragoonHP. Those attitudes are the specific ones that we want to challenge, the one's who claim 'girls don't play games'. I would like people to try and understand what our point is and why we think we should be catered towards as a market and why we think the inclusion of female perspective will help enrich gaming culture.

If you are looking into commercial VN development you might start caring what females think because of their population here and (according to Jack Norton) they are less likely to pirate your game.

And if you think women don't like porn, you are severely mistaken. I think you'll find written erotica is extremely popular with females. Why is there an assumption that girls lack libido?

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#231 Post by DragoonHP » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:20 am

Read through the entire thread (okay, almost entire, skipped some posts) and it did bring up some valid arguments for both sides.
And I strongly support Games Development for female audience (some of my favourite OELVNs are games targeted towards women) but I think most of these backlashes happen because of the way that point is presented.

Newton's third law of motion also apply in real life, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," and what I am trying to say is the backlash from male gamers and developer come because the way this particular point is presented. Instead of putting it out nicely, the supporters just start throwing arguments, which come-off almost as accusations (more than once reading through these posts, I felt the same) and then the backlash comes because the other side feels enraged.

And a little off-topic post regarding your bracketed comment "that female empowerment is 'alarming' and 'unrealistic'"
In entirety this comment is not true; while I agree that female empowerment might be seemed as alarming and unrealistic in some cases, it's not a case that is universally applicable in today's world. It is something that feminist (extremist) had almost made their catch-phrase (I'm supposing for getting sympathy or something like that) and something that perhaps most of anti-feminist despise because it makes the male demographic look like the villain and they also do a good job of shadowing the problems that males has to suffer, exaggerating the burden's a woman has to face.
There is a remarkable difference between what feminist (extremist) consider equality and what equality actually is.

But as it is pointed out to me, this is neither the time nor the place to discuss this topic.

PS: Mind me if some sentences sound weird (than usual); for some reasons my mind seemed to be devoid of err... my vocabulary.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#232 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:37 am

DragoonHP wrote:And a little off-topic post regarding your bracketed comment "that female empowerment is 'alarming' and 'unrealistic'"
In entirety this comment is not true; while I agree that female empowerment might be seemed as alarming and unrealistic in some cases, it's not a case that is universally applicable in today's world. It is something that feminist (extremist) had almost made their catch-phrase (I'm supposing for getting sympathy or something like that) and something that perhaps most of anti-feminist despise because it makes the male demographic look like the villain and they also do a good job of shadowing the problems that males has to suffer, exaggerating the burden's a woman has to face.
There is a remarkable difference between what feminist (extremist) consider equality and what equality actually is.
I wasn't making those up, those are actual words that guys have used in that thread. For example:
I think the trend in movies is more alarming. I went to the cinema the other week, nearly every trailer had some good looking, ninja/martial artist/gi jane-esc character. Or even worse a cropped hair dyke feminist. I went to see tower heist, the introduction of the female lead was tea leoni clotheslining ben stiller off his feet and asking him where are his balls? Keep up the good work Hollywood.
It would be hilarious to portray the female characters realistically. If you chose the female character in your FPS she would have to move very slowly, dragging the gun around. You could build in some extra shake to the crosshairs to represent hopeless accuracy. Every time you needed to reload your gun, instead of just pressing a button, you'd have to find a male character and go through some flirting dialogue options to persuade him to do it for you. One out of every four missions the game would tell you that you were sitting out this one due to 'women's issues'.
Many dweebs who play video games, being passive followers, see themselves as women, and therefore unconsciously identify with symbols of female power. This phenomenon has its source in *geeks* who haven't developed a masculine identity, not feminazis.
a game where a woman skulks in the shadows before slitting the throats of men, or alternately stabbing them in the heart or in the back? finally, some realism
I think the real reason women object to it is because it's a form of competition that real women can never stand up to, a man's fantasy of a woman is always more pleasant than the real thing (men are the ones with the greatest and most powerful imaginations as well as a greater capacity for rational AND abstract thought)
Seriously, we aren't making up these attitudes and this is coming from stuff that has been in established games, not about what women have or haven't said.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#233 Post by DragoonHP » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:52 am

I wasn't trying to criticise you or something. And reading it again, I can see why it sounded like that.

And as I said I did read that thread what I said, it was meant for extremist (that's why I bracketed it after feminist), not someone who just supports women rights.

And regarding to the quotes, there will always be someone who won't agree; some people still believe in racism and stuff, but those people do not represent today's world. Instead most of us had learnt to ignore them because not everyone changes with time and it's like hitting your head against a wall if you try to make them see errors in their way of thinking.

Again I will say that comment was not for regular female supporters (couldn't think of a better word), because many of them are quite reasonable in their way of thinking. It was for extremist whose mind had been set in stone.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#234 Post by B E A N » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:55 am

Auro-Cyanide wrote:@B E A N, you really should read the thread when you get the chance, since what you think we are saying isn't what we said at all. You are making assumptions. No where have we asked for male content to end. All we have advocated is to be treated with some respect and for people to maybe understand our perspective a little. Greater understanding can go a long way when people are trying to sell games to us, since our money is as good as anyone else's. Also, please see the link above that I gave to DragoonHP. Those attitudes are the specific ones that we want to challenge, the one's who claim 'girls don't play games'. I would like people to try and understand what our point is and why we think we should be catered towards as a market and why we think the inclusion of female perspective will help enrich gaming culture.

If you are looking into commercial VN development you might start caring what females think because of their population here and (according to Jack Norton) they are less likely to pirate your game.
The article you linked to here sounds to me as though some people believe that

a) in many newer games, players are forced to take a female perspective, and if they don't then
b) female characters are pictured as just as strong/capable/heroic as male ones where they "naturally" shouldn't be.

Is THAT a mainstream opinion? I don't think so. That's a bunch of 16-year-old assholes whining because they feel insecure and thus believe they must assure themselves of their own superiority over women.

If you want to tell me what your point is, then tell me what your point is. Is it the continuing existence of assholes like the ones posting in that article? Sorry, can't do anything about that. But I believe it's something different you want. What can I, as someone who writes and wants to make games, do for you?
And if you think women don't like porn, you are severely mistaken. I think you'll find written erotica is extremely popular with females. Why is there an assumption that girls lack libido?
Oh, I am certain women like porn. They just aren't usually very vocal about it. (At least not in the other forums I know. If you people here are different, I've come to the right place *g*.)

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#235 Post by Mink » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:17 am

While you may be actually talking to Auro, here's what you can do for me: don't make what you're writing actively offensive to half the human species (i.e. women), regardless of whether or not it's for them. Women can be sexy without being objectified.

Also, I imagine women not being very vocal about liking porn may have something to do with slut-shaming, but that's just speculation on my part.

@DragoonHP: Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree that the way to deal with racism or sexism is to ignore it, any more than ignoring a bully means they'll leave you alone.
Auro-Cyanide wrote:
I think the real reason women object to it is because it's a form of competition that real women can never stand up to, a man's fantasy of a woman is always more pleasant than the real thing (men are the ones with the greatest and most powerful imaginations as well as a greater capacity for rational AND abstract thought)
I know *I* get upset at the idea that strange/random men may not find me attractive, especially when compared to what society's standard of beauty is! Oh horrors!
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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#236 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:32 am

B E A N wrote:Is THAT a mainstream opinion? I don't think so. That's a bunch of 16-year-old assholes whining because they feel insecure and thus believe they must assure themselves of their own superiority over women.
Unfortunately it isn't a one off kind of event and those attitudes have been expressed on most gaming sites. I would also wager a large portion of those guys are well over 20 and can't blame it on adolescent stupidity. It's not a whole representation at all, not even close (thank god), but they are very vocal and it's probably guys with similar attitudes that sexually harass women who dare step into the realm of online FPS. These attitudes pop up whenever change is mentioned to say why things are as they are and why they shouldn't change at all. I'm not protesting their right to say stuff, but I am concerned for the reasons for doing so.
B E A N wrote:If you want to tell me what your point is, then tell me what your point is. Is it the continuing existence of assholes like the ones posting in that article? Sorry, can't do anything about that. But I believe it's something different you want. What can I, as someone who writes and wants to make games, do for you?
You don't have to do anything of course. If you want to make games that will mostly appeal to guys, go for it. It would be nice if you considered the choices you make and how that represented women, but that is a personal choice type thing (As Mink said, not actively offensive is a step in the right direction). However, if you want me to care about your work and to buy your games, you will have to address me as part of your audience. It's as simple as that. I want respect as a market and that means acknowledgement. I am not happy buying stuff and play stuff that doesn't even think I exist and thinks I should just like what males like. Games that address my perspective make me very happy and I will buy them gladly (Bioware pretty much owns my soul at this point, especially if they keep making steps in the right direction).
B E A N wrote:Oh, I am certain women like porn. They just aren't usually very vocal about it. (At least not in the other forums I know. If you people here are different, I've come to the right place *g*.)
The older ones? Yes, of course. We tend to be vocal about pretty much everything if you hadn't noticed :D But like Mink said, society tends to see it as shameful for women to like anything sexual *excuse me while I roll my eyes* Females will generally (with many exceptions of course) have different tastes though, and girls represented in porn are often... very annoying. The men sometimes more so. If you browse through this thread you can probably gauge the different opinions that exist, which might help you http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 30&t=12884

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#237 Post by B E A N » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:50 am

Auro-Cyanide wrote:Unfortunately it isn't a one off kind of event and those attitudes have been expressed on most gaming sites. I would also wager a large portion of those guys are well over 20 and can't blame it on adolescent stupidity.
These guys may be in their twenties by birth. Mentally, they're still in their teens. This is a problem with many young adult men today: they somehow remain stuck in "dumb teen mode" and never really grow up. Not that a grown-up attitude isn't that desirable by itself, because with it can come conservatism, lack of tolerance and lack of "being able to enjoy yourself". But these guys: I wouldn't take them too seriously. Besides, they're gamers, not game-makers. They're better at destroying things than at making them, or they would be playing Minecraft instead *g*
The older ones? Yes, of course. We tend to be vocal about pretty much everything if you hadn't noticed :D But like Mink said, society tends to see it as shameful for women to like anything sexual *excuse me while I roll my eyes* Females will generally (with many exceptions of course) have different tastes though, and girls represented in porn are often... very annoying. The men sometimes more so. If you browse through this thread you can probably gauge the different opinions that exist, which might help you http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 30&t=12884
If that latter link leads to an example of a game that boys and girls in these forums universally like, then I'm VERY confident that the sort of stuff I'm planning to write will be to your liking. It's not that far from my usual style of erotic writing - female protagonist and all. (Though the main criticism mentioned in the thread is correct... cake inside any bodily orifice that isn't the mouth is icky.)

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#238 Post by Silvere » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:55 am

Auro-Cyanide wrote:I am not happy buying stuff and play stuff that doesn't even think I exist and thinks I should just like what males like. Games that address my perspective make me very happy and I will buy them gladly (Bioware pretty much owns my soul at this point, especially if they keep making steps in the right direction).
Yea, uhm, what great difference is there in what males/females like ?

In a sexual perspective you want some sexy guys, we want some sexy girls.

In a story driven game, you ... what? We... what? What do we want?

I actually DO NOT know what females wish for (Except of there being no possibility of choosing a female char in some games).

Clothing up the chars? Well, not every game is designed for something like that. And it would be stupid to want something like that from every game.

A game is a game - You like it or not.
I wouldn't know anything about what female players would want more if not going after all prejudices about 'em 0___0
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[This isn't meant in a bad way, I just don't know why games are made for men? What's the number one thing when going for guys? A sexy girl. And that was is except some explosions - Or am I missing something BIG here? 0.0]

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#239 Post by B E A N » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:13 am

@Auro-Cyanide and the link she posted (gamers complaining about female characters in videogames):
http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-b ... the-planet
Kotaku has found the same forum thread and called it what it is: a congregation of sexists.

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Re: Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female g

#240 Post by Skye » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:15 am

I totally agree with you Kara. I think many game developers have just brought up a female stereotype. I'm so sick of that cutesy princess girl or that voluptuous woman. I like the games with the kick ass girls in it, Robin from 'Rockin Robbin' f.e--- did I spell that right?
I hope that developers consider this.

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