Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

[DragoonHP]

People keeping telling me that strong female characters are 'unrealistic' which is nonsense.

I think a lot of the time when people say "strong female characters are unrealistic", they mean they can't see how a teeny tiny model chick can kick a bunch of bad guys' asses on her own (without magical powers, of course). There's been quite a few movies lately where a pencil thin woman is somehow able to overpower people that are much stronger than her physically.

That's just physics... I stand at 5'3 inches (160cm), and even if I bodybuilt and got advanced combat training it would be very easy for a big man to overpower me and break my neck.

This wouldn't be the case for a non-pencil-thin model woman with large muscles that could easily punch in a guy's face with one fist... But, those aren't "attractive" to the main stream unfortunately,main characters always need to be attractive. Same goes for Tom Cruise really... I think if he was really a spy he'd most likely be easy to kill due to his stature...


I probably mentioned this before, but... Why is there still a discussion? Obviously people are just talking and talking... It's getting no where... We get it. You want equality. It's understandable. But, if you want change, actions are louder than words. Many of you are already taking action through making games.

People like myself will most likely not agree with a lot of your opinions no matter how many times you say them. Instead of wasting time on us, spend time working on the problem with action. It's obvious GxB and other girl-oriented games have been dominating the forum for awhile now... Is this not progress towards your goal?

+::like
(I know this is a worthless post, but I wanted to show my agreement...)

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Auro-Cynaide: I am not; i just don't like the way it is being said,
Never in the discussion I had said that I am against female targeted towards female, but what I am against is this game of accusations that is going on here.
No matter how much co-operation one is showing, it is not enough until we completely agree.
Not to mention the fact that every second poster is trying to derail the thread by bringing up women issues in the thread.

Female issues aren't really a derailment because the two are related. The reasons the issue exists and the way it manifests are direct conclusions of social issues in regards to women. Talking about Middle Eastern rape law would be derailment, but talking about Western social views of women and femininity is on track since if those issues didn't exist then we wouldn't have this problem in games at all.

As for accusation... people are close to this issue on both sides, tempers get heated. Many of the arguments brought against why game developers shouldn't make female content go around a lot and often revolve around the very reasons why women want change in the first place. Eg, Why can't you just play the games, they are fine. I like the female character that way. You aren't a market, you don't play games. The male characters are cool therefore they must be appealing to girls. Including girls will make the games worse for guys. So yeah, I would advocate people try not to take it too personally or point fingers, we are talking about a very big issue that effects everyone. To me, it's a social problem that happens to pop up in games as well as else were. Change will require a change in society and the way people think.

Again, it's a cultural problem. A cultural problem. Humans have not always thought this way, it is not a natural state and it is possible to change (not that we should take it as far as the Celts, they had no mercy in that story). Talking about it is a form of expression. There is nothing wrong with it. And I feel like it.

@Fawn... so men are allowed to have fantasies of power including women with gravity defying breasts and bikini armour and girls can't because... it's unrealistic and not physically possible?

[DragoonHP]

Female issues aren't really a derailment because the two are related. The reasons the issue exists and the way it manifests are direct conclusions of social issues in regards to women. Talking about Middle Eastern rape law would be derailment, but talking about Western social views of women and femininity is on track since if those issues didn't exist then we wouldn't have this problem in games at all.

It is derailment if the post say nothing about games and all about how women are being marginalised, oppressed , ignored or whatever you like to call it.
As you have said yourself, this is a discussion about games and if including these social issues is fine, then you shouldn't have pointed me out of posting those links, because it felt like I was talking about male oppression. Through those links, I was trying to tell that the social views of women aren't as many here are so adamantly trying to portray.

So yeah, I would advocate people try not to take it too personally or point fingers, we are talking about a very big issue that effects everyone. To me, it's a social problem that happens to pop up in games as well as else were. Change will require a change in society and the way people think.

Again, it's a cultural problem. A cultural problem. Humans have not always thought this way, it is not a natural state and it is possible to change. Talking about it is a form of expression. There is nothing wrong with it.

Changes are required, but is this the right way to pursue them.
As PyTom, Fawn and many others have said, "Action speaks louder than words." but that seems to be ignored by others.
They want other to do things for you, but history has showed in more than one case that things don't happen that way; if you want something you have to do it yourself. Making a issue about it will only infuriate the other party and less willing to change their mindset.

Many of these so called posters have showed a remarkable amount of obliviousness when certain facts were presented and for telling what they want, they hadn't even thought once before twisting the words of the original poster.

And as I have said earlier, women, particularly feminist, have formed that mindset and until and unless each and every one of their demands are fulfilled, they will continue to pop up this argument.

@Fawn... so men are allowed to have fantasies of power including women with gravity defying breasts and bikini armour and girls can't because... it's unrealistic and not physically possible? Plis, have you seen images of the women I mentioned? Some of them were hot.

Who said women don't fantasise. Just take a look at the female orientated games. Have you seen the male-characters in them?
They defy every possible rule. As someone who works out, I know it is impossible to maintain that kind of physique so easily. Or bishies.
Saying that women are not allowed to fantasise is outright wrong.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Female issues aren't really a derailment because the two are related. The reasons the issue exists and the way it manifests are direct conclusions of social issues in regards to women. Talking about Middle Eastern rape law would be derailment, but talking about Western social views of women and femininity is on track since if those issues didn't exist then we wouldn't have this problem in games at all.

It is derailment if the post say nothing about games and all about how women are being marginalised, oppressed , ignored or whatever you like to call it.
As you have said yourself, this is a discussion about games and if including these social issues is fine, then you shouldn't have pointed me out of posting those links, because it felt like I was talking about male oppression. Through those links, I was trying to tell that the social views of women aren't as many here are so adamantly trying to portray.

It's a discussion on how it is hard to find games as a female gamer, which is related to social issues to do with females. Understanding those issues will help people understand why things in games right now are not that female friendly. Issues of male kind, such as child custody, do not have any relation to girls finding games. I'm not sure why you would say it would.

So yeah, I would advocate people try not to take it too personally or point fingers, we are talking about a very big issue that effects everyone. To me, it's a social problem that happens to pop up in games as well as else were. Change will require a change in society and the way people think.

Again, it's a cultural problem. A cultural problem. Humans have not always thought this way, it is not a natural state and it is possible to change. Talking about it is a form of expression. There is nothing wrong with it.

Changes are required, but is this the right way to pursue them.
As PyTom, Fawn and many others have said, "Action speaks louder than words." but that seems to be ignored by others.
They want other to do things for you, but history has showed in more than one case that things don't happen that way; if you want something you have to do it yourself. Making a issue about it will only infuriate the other party and less willing to change their mindset.

Many of these so called posters have showed a remarkable amount of obliviousness when certain facts were presented and for telling what they want, they hadn't even thought once before twisting the words of the original poster.

And as I have said earlier, women, particularly feminist, have formed that mindset and until and unless each and every one of their demands are fulfilled, they will continue to pop up this argument.

Most of us here are making our own games and we also participate as consumers. What is wrong with us wishing to discuss other issues related to it? If you wish to participate and argue, feel free, but don't be offended when people argue back. It is a discussion, and as it is a matter close to many girl gamers, as well as a frustrating one, we have things we want to say about it, even if it might directly not change anything. We are not harming anyone by doing so.

@Fawn... so men are allowed to have fantasies of power including women with gravity defying breasts and bikini armour and girls can't because... it's unrealistic and not physically possible? Plis, have you seen images of the women I mentioned? Some of them were hot.

Who said women don't fantasise. Just take a look at the female orientated games. Have you seen the male-characters in them?
They defy every possible rule. As someone who works out, I know it is impossible to maintain that kind of physique so easily. Or bishies.
Saying that women are not allowed to fantasise is outright wrong.

In mainstream games, male characters designed for females are very rare. Any concept of female power fantasy is also taken as being 'unrealistic'. It's a fantasy. Why does it count for female power, but not for female eye candy? I sense double standards in that argument. Female orientated games, for instance VNs, only make up a tiny fraction of the market, it does not form a rule.

[DragoonHP]

It's a discussion on how it is hard to find games as a female gamer, which is related to social issues to do with females. Understanding those issues will help people understand why things in games right now are not that female friendly. Issues of male kind, such as child custody, do not have any relation to girls finding games. I'm not sure why you would say it would.

I think I am confusing you here.
What I was trying to say was things aren't the same as many here are trying to portray. One member here posted a comic strip here, which was anything but true. It is one of many things that stuck in mind.

Most of us here are making our own games and we also participate as consumers. What is wrong with us wishing to discuss other issues related to it? If you wish to participate and argue, feel free, but don't be offended when people argue back. It is a discussion, and as it is a matter close to many girl gamers, as well as a frustrating one, we have things we want to say about it, even if it might directly not change anything. We are not harming anyone by doing so.

I am not offended and I wonder what would make you think so. If anything I am quite interested in knowing other views about this subject because in the end I am gaining something from participating in this discussion.

And there's no harm in discussing it, but is it the right way to discuss?
As you said, it's a sensitive matter and people get a little emotional and aggressive about these things, but there's a difference between discussing and blaming / accusing others.
But (don't feel offended) this a common human trait, they seldom see their own way of things, instead they nitpick others way of doing stuff because it is easy.

Yes, you are not harming anyone by doing so, but relentless chants of "We want games, we want games" in a forum which already has a good number of female-oriented games made by people like you won't do anyone any good.

In mainstream games, male characters designed for females are very rare. Any concept of female power fantasy is also taken as being 'unrealistic'. It's a fantasy. Why does it count for female power, but not for female eye candy? I sense double standards in that argument. Female orientated games, for instance VNs, only make up a tiny fraction of the market, it does not form a rule.

Agreed... but saying women aren't allowed to fantasise is wrong. As Fawn had stated in her post, there is a difference between reasonable female power fantasy and unbelievable female fantasy.
I don't know how or why you sensed double standards in that argument.

But that shows that change is happening; something most of the posters here have managed to ignore.
And trying to speed up that change by shoving unreasonable and unneeded facts down our throat is not going to speed it up, if anything it will cause it to slow down.

Discussing about these topics is good and very needed, but arguing like lives are on the line isn't.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@DragoonHP, cause you sound kind of angry? You feel like people are trying to shove their opinions down your throat, as you put it. The majority of people in thread have been reasonably civil, and while some of the opinions are strongly put, they often have a point. Like I said, people here feel like they have to rationalise why they want their perspective acknowledge because people aren't understanding where they are coming from. I was asked repeatedly in the beginning why I couldn't just play games as they are, and then turned around to be told female elements would make games less enjoyable for males. You can probably see how these arguments can get hard to deal with when you are told that it should be okay for girls to play games aimed directly at males, but guys can't play a game with female elements. What many girls want in games are things I can relate to at least, even if I might not personally want them. But you get meet with a lot of hostility for mentioning those changes (not necessarily here, but it's common enough to have entire articles written about it). This isn't the first time people have talked about this.

What would be the right way to discuss it then, in your opinion?

Who gets to decide what is a reasonable power fantasy or what isn't? I sense double standards because if a women says she think the big breasted, bikini armour clad character is silly, she is told that it is okay because it isn't real, it's a 'male fantasy'. If a women says she would like to be able to play as a female warrior in an RPG she is told that is 'unrealistic' because women wouldn't be strong enough. That is a double standard.

We aren't ignoring the changes. Bioware is regarded pretty well because of the changes it has made for instance (I really wish I had more companies to point to, but Bioware is the strongest in this regard). However, it has been meet with opposition. And Bioware does get it wrong sometimes, such as it's female beauty pageant thingy. So this change is far from a smooth transition.

Really, I'm not that concerned about games, they are games. I love them dearly, but they are games. However I am very concerned about the opinions raised in opposition that have been mentioned in numerous posts, to the point of denial that there is a problem at all. That is not a game, that is real life. I am concerned when people in real life think such things. It is something worth taking seriously.

[DragoonHP]

@Auro-Cyanide: Umm... that's one of my fault; I always end up using stronger language then I intended to use. While it maybe a little too much to ask, please keep in mind that I am neither offended nor angry. I was in the start after reading all, but since I have taken part in the discussion, I am not.

I won't say they are being civil per-say, but yes it could have been much more worse.
Yup I understand where you are coming from; old gamers have a tendency to say those things because they don't like these changes. But you will have to understand that changes are happening, and it isn't that time any more. Time has changed; the unstopping wheel of change is still revolving and it had brought several changes. Clinging to those past notions is ridiculous.

And it won't be the last time people will talk about it, but presentation matters. Take an example,
You are in a restaurant and you have ordered food. The waiter comes back with the food. Now there may be two cases;
--> He smiles at you politely and put the food on your table;
--> He scowls at you and slams the plate on the table;

Now the basic objective is fulfilled in both the cases, you get the food, but put yourself in the customer place; which one will you prefer.

And now let's do some role swapping (there are some contradictions, but please ignore them for this example); You (I mean the entire group) are the waiter, the food is your ideas and the customer are the main demographic of developers / players.

What is happening here is the second case, because people had started to vent out their "Male are Superiors, Females are oppressed" anger here (which is not entirely true but a growth of their own insecure minds).
But what we would like to have seen is the first case; it is a common human trait to defend their action when they are put in the spotlight. No matter how wrong or right they may be, they will defend it.

And here you are asking for more space (games), from the people who have their mind set at a single point (games targeted towards male). And people in power don't like to be told what they need to do; that is another common trait, let it be man or woman.
If you have put it nicely and in a civil manner and without shoving other issues down our throat, the thread would already have ended because the issue in itself is not such a big one, but some people had taken upon themselves to shove every issue even remotely related to women in this one because they feel like it is their duty, because their insecure mind makes them paranoid.

And do you know what that had achieved?
Nothing.
Sorry... it had achieved something, a big wall of text which if someone tl;dr-ed, will be summarised in three or four short paragraphs.

Now... you seem to have misinterpreted my sentence.
Big-breasted women while being rare, are seen (sorry I couldn't think of a better word) but extremely thin girls beating the pulp out of 10 or more demon sized man. Do you see what I am trying to say.
If a women has huge muscles, then I it might be possible, but those RPG women aren't portrayed like this. They are as thin as a zero-fiigure model and still manage to yield demonic strength.
While the first case can be possible in real life, as rare as it may be, the second case is impossible. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I beg to disagree, because you are disregarding changes.
Changes don't happen in matter of second, it takes quite a while for changes to happen.
But being impatient about it does not help, it only annoy.

And while we are talking about gaming company getting it wrong about character portrayal; do you think that the man they portray in the game are real?
If no, then why to talk about it if the games they make have slightly wrong portrayal of female.
If you answered with a nod, then how. I mean some games have portrayed real man, but they are like 0.5 or 1%.

Yes it is worth talking seriously, but the question is, can we talk about these things without harbouring ill will towards the opposition?
I agree sometimes during reading the older posts, I have thought ill of the poster and I believe anyone who had read or posted in this thread will be fooling themselves if they deny.
Because the way the arguments are presented, it automatically makes your blood boil. From silly and petty blaming to outright insults to mockery, anyone to everyone will find something to be angry on this thread.
As someone who support female equality, I hate being told that I am an women-hater (or something like that) just because I don't agree with the feminist views of equality.
Because their views are severally flawed and many instances have proven that.

And the denial is factor is seen in both sides.
I may be biased, but I think the other side has shown more denial than this side. But then again it may be because only PyTom had posted here, who I have to say, have shown a remarkable impartiality against some really pesky and insulting posts.

I am concerned about that, concerned about many things. But this post has started to get quite long, so I will stop right about here.

[B E A N]

Whoa, dude, take a chill pill. If we wanted realistic games, we'd all be playing Microsoft Flight Simulator now.

Really, I find it hard to believe that the majority of people, both men and women, can't handle a little lack of realism and logic if it comes for the sake of entertainment. So that female fighter is a bimbo in a chainmail bikini? Okay, that's just as realistic as the very existence of that horde of goblins she is currently slaughtering. Li'l Asian-looking chick wielding massive heavy machine gun and committing feats of strength John Rambo would be proud of? Actually a massive turn-on for me; I love both strong characters and small slim women; why not combine both for the sake of fantasy and wish-fulfillment?

Or take your typical shounen-ai manga. Men whose bodies are both delicate, slim and with defined muscles all at the same time, and they are sweet passionate lovers too! Of course this is a popular fantasy! Is it realistic? Hell no! Am I, as a normal everyday guy who sits too much i front of his computer to develop a sixpack, somehow offended by the way these people are portrayed? Of course not!

Oh: and as for small, light people being unable to kick butt: For my 25th birthday, my then-GF thought it was a good idea to give me ten free judo lessons. Basically because she did judo herself and wanted us to have another hobby to share. I'm a 6'0" guy. I don't do any sports, but I'm reasonably healthy and of average strength for my size, which is strong enough for pretty much all everyday tasks and then a little more. My judo instructor was a really really tiny five-foot-five Asian guy (Vietnamese, I think), and he didn't look like much, but his body must have been nothing but muscle because he was able to throw me around like nothing, and he knew how to twist my arms and legs in a way that it hurt like hell. Long story short: judo wasn't for me, and my respect of really small, scrawny people has increased immensely. No idea if they have weight classes in judo the way they have in boxing, but I don't think they'd need them.

[Mink]

Whoa, dude, take a chill pill. If we wanted realistic games, we'd all be playing Microsoft Flight Simulator now.

Really, I find it hard to believe that the majority of people, both men and women, can't handle a little lack of realism and logic if it comes for the sake of entertainment. So that female fighter is a bimbo in a chainmail bikini? Okay, that's just as realistic as the very existence of that horde of goblins she is currently slaughtering. Li'l Asian-looking chick wielding massive heavy machine gun and committing feats of strength John Rambo would be proud of? Actually a massive turn-on for me; I love both strong characters and small slim women; why not combine both for the sake of fantasy and wish-fulfillment?

The issue for me in that scenario is when the men have actual ARMOR, while the women get battle bikinis. Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans. I'd have less of an issue if there were men also running around in ridiculous clothes, but those seem to be few and far between.

[papillon]

Well obviously no one's ever going to entirely agree, and it's quite difficult to tell what percentage of people ACTUALLY believe anything. But you can look at end results. You can look at skewed statistics, you can look at companies outright refusing to make things that cater to women, and you can say 'there's something not quite right here'.

Assuming "oh well, it'll never change" is a road to despair.

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

It's not "outright refusal". You're implying that companies would rather ruin games for women, then to get more money.

Remember the articles and quotes posted earlier. On some companies behalf it is indeed outright refusal.

Of course they have reasons for it, of course they think they're doing it for money, that doesn't make it not a refusal.

The reason why the male demographic is catered to, and the female demographic is underrepresented. Is because the women who will buy the game is a very, very small amount compared to the men who will.

Except the existing proportions of people buying games IS NOT 99% male.


---

(different post)

Big-breasted women while being rare, are seen (sorry I couldn't think of a better word) but extremely thin girls beating the pulp out of 10 or more demon sized man. Do you see what I am trying to say.
If a women has huge muscles, then I it might be possible, but those RPG women aren't portrayed like this. They are as thin as a zero-fiigure model and still manage to yield demonic strength.
While the first case can be possible in real life, as rare as it may be, the second case is impossible. Please correct me if I am wrong.

A tiny girl beating the pulp out of demons isn't something you see in reality.

YOU ALSO DON'T SEE DEMONS IN REALITY.

The weaponry carried and wielded by male characters in video games is often physically impossible, even before we get into the magical attacks.

Now obviously, there is sexism involved in making all the female leads small and pretty even in roles where they should realistically be more muscular (and always killing off any woman who looks a bit tough, see VasquezAlwaysDies). But the way people fixate on "lol girls can't possibly fight" while ignoring every other unrealistic aspect of a game is quite disturbing.

(Speaking of weird desires to make tough girls look 'prettier', apparently some international boxing organisation is trying to pass regulations forcing female boxers to wear skirts. )

[DragoonHP]

A tiny girl beating the pulp out of demons isn't something you see in reality.

YOU ALSO DON'T SEE DEMONS IN REALITY.

The weaponry carried and wielded by male characters in video games is often physically impossible, even before we get into the magical attacks.

Now obviously, there is sexism involved in making all the female leads small and pretty even in roles where they should realistically be more muscular (and always killing off any woman who looks a bit tough, see VasquezAlwaysDies). But the way people fixate on "lol girls can't possibly fight" while ignoring every other unrealistic aspect of a game is quite disturbing.

<span>(Speaking of weird desires to make tough girls look 'prettier', apparently some international boxing organisation is trying to pass regulations [url=<a href="http://www.change.org/petitions/tell">h ... ear-skirts]forcing female boxers to wear skirts[/url]. )</span>

I understand your point ^.^ and I agree with most of it except the part, "But the way people fixate on "lol girls can't possibly fight" while ignoring every other unrealistic aspect of a game is quite disturbing." is something i can't find myself agreeing with.
Take Lara Croft games for example (please ignore the stereotype in that game for this post).
They had been a huge hit and while there may have been some people who would have bickered about it (can't say for sure since I don't know), the game as in general was widely accepted.

And about people don't having issues with male stereotype is perhaps to a certain extent our history. Everyone would have heard at least one tale about some Hero who had managed to defy even the darkest of evil and so when they play the game, to some extent they can associate with it.

[B E A N]

The issue for me in that scenario is when the men have actual ARMOR, while the women get battle bikinis. Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans. I'd have less of an issue if there were men also running around in ridiculous clothes, but those seem to be few and far between.

Played any JRPGs lately?

Armor?

Not ridiculous? And that one's a front line fighter!

Most modern JRPGs put the main characters into something resembling a Japanese visual kei band on stage. The image of the female fighter in revealing clothes, on the other hand, goes back to the 1920s and the early "barbarian adventure" novels. It has since been picked up by fantasy writers time and again, and it is a typical (admittedly sexist) staple in fantasy literature. Video games reflect it whenever they go for a comparable setting, yes. But that's nothing more than a stereotype hardly anyone would take seriously.

[Mink]

It's not like I said "they don't exist anywhere ever".

And...are you implying that using sexist depictions or stereotypes is okay because 'they're not taken seriously', as if people don't, you know, buy into stereotypes? Really, I'm asking. That's kind of what it sounds like and I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Semi-related: Zero Suit Master Chief.

[PyTom]

Remember the articles and quotes posted earlier. On some companies behalf it is indeed outright refusal.

Of course they have reasons for it, of course they think they're doing it for money, that doesn't make it not a refusal.

The question is - is that refusal wrong? Either a creator is doing something that violates someone else's rights - or else they're not, and we're just arguing over taste.

The reason why the male demographic is catered to, and the female demographic is underrepresented. Is because the women who will buy the game is a very, very small amount compared to the men who will.

Except the existing proportions of people buying games IS NOT 99% male.

It's pretty close, though. Console gamers skew 77% male - those are the sorts of games we're talking about here, aren't we? (From what I understand, the AAA PC games skew the same way, with casual games catering to very different demographics.) Of the 23% of women who play these games, it isn't absurd to think that at least some of them like the current lineups.

The important thing is equality of opportunity. If Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are preventing games targeted at women from being published - that's sexual discrimination, and needs to be stamped out. (It's also a really good argument against DRM, BTW.) Ditto for Steam and their store.

But as long as there's equality of opportunity, changing things is up to those who want them changed.

And...are you implying that using sexist depictions or stereotypes is okay because 'they're not taken seriously', as if people don't, you know, buy into stereotypes?

Are you using sexist to mean sex-discrimination or sex-targeting? The latter is often okay - it's when it degenerates into the former that it becomes harmful.

[Mink]

I mean the former (reducing a woman to nothing more than her parts, making her nothing more than a walking blow-up doll, you get the idea), but the latter can very easily devolve into that. As I stated before, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeting men as an audience: it's generally the way it's done I have issues with.