Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

[DragoonHP]

I mean the former (reducing a woman to nothing more than her parts, making her nothing more than a walking blow-up doll, you get the idea), but the latter can very easily devolve into that. As I stated before, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeting men as an audience: it's generally the way it's done I have issues with.

The similar thing can be said about female-oriented games... because they present in males in such a way that many will find unreasonable...

[PyTom]

I mean the former (reducing a woman to nothing more than her parts, making her nothing more than a walking blow-up doll, you get the idea), but the latter can very easily devolve into that. As I stated before, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeting men as an audience: it's generally the way it's done I have issues with.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I mean, I think we mostly agree that real sex-discrimination is bad. I suspect most of us would agree that games that say things like "all girls belong in the kitchen" are probably bad - especially if they portray that sort of thing in a sympathetic light. (We sometimes go too far in this, and ignore differences between sexes entirely.)

I don't think portraying an airhead character is particularly close to sex discrimination. There are people like that - and they're fine to depict. World of Warcraft tends to go with the "chainmail bikini" type of outfit - but also has female characters that are overly strong.

There seems to be a sort of assumption behind this that men are just walking piles of prejudice - that even a little bit of sex-targeting will turn us into misogynists. I believe that's wrong, and that - outside of the worst bits of the internet - most people are decent human beings. And so a lot of this concern about games targeted to men is misplaced, and that (to return to the original topic) the right way to find games that female gamers like is to make them.

The similar thing can be said about female-oriented games... because they present in males in such a way that many will find unreasonable...

I'm not sure there are enough female-oriented games to generalize like that, yet. But from what I hear, Twilight is like that - portraying men in an unrealistic manner. And that's fine. We're not going to ban Twilight, and we're not going to ban games either.

[Fawn]

@Fawn... so men are allowed to have fantasies of power including women with gravity defying breasts and bikini armour and girls can't because... it's unrealistic and not physically possible?

@Auro: Where did I state that women CAN'T have unrealistic fantasies? I never said women CAN'T have unrealistic fantasies. Where did I ever say that? I was explaining why it's understandable that people find a toothpick model to beating up bad guys easily unrealistic. (though as B E A N stated, there are definitely exceptions)

I never mentioned once that women can't fantasize about unrealistic men. You twisted my words, that's not okay.


Back to the point:
Women fantasize about unrealistic men all the time and it's widely accepted- look at romance novels. The biggest fantasy I've seen is what I like to call the Not-Gay Gay Boyfriend- basically a man who's a lot like a woman, but is still attracted to women, not men. There's also the knight in shining armor, too... The perfect pretty boy that has been mentioned before.

These are just as offensive as the sexy blonde bimbo in a string bikini to me. It hurts to be expected to be a shining prince that will be interested in women's things, have a perfect body and hair just as much as it hurts to be expected to be a promiscuous big-boobed goddess with no brain. Men have insecurity too, but unfortunately society doesn't find it acceptable to show it as much as women can.

[HigurashiKira]

These are just as offensive as the sexy blonde bimbo in a string bikini to me. It hurts to be expected to be a shining prince that will be interested in women's things, have a perfect body and hair just as much as it hurts to be expected to be a promiscuous big-boobed goddess with no brain. Men have insecurity too, but unfortunately society doesn't find it acceptable to show it as much as women can.

Society also frowns upon the male physique. From a young age a guy is told to be ashamed of showing his body, it's one of the reasons why you don't see many shirtless guys running around in games (Unless it's a fighting game) This is even prominent in films as well. A naked woman can walk around in a PG-13 film for a short scene, but have a guy do the same thing and you're promised to have that movie get bumped up to an R or NC-17 rating.

[Aleema]

Now that I've stopped seeing double from that awful "harems are good for women" trash, I'll get my feet wet again.

Since someone was asking, the male gaze is what defines a game "for men," not the gameplay. The fact that the women are naked and the men are not, or the women are vapid play dolls, and the men are not, it's that the women pose is awkward demeaning ways, and the men do not. Etc. That's clearly targeted towards men, even though there was no reason for that particular game to be targeted only to men. Strip that sexism out of it, and you have an otherwise fine game. Make all the women in Skyrim objectified and stupid, and it's suddenly a game for men that offends women. It's this active "I assume you're a dude and you like your women big breasted and docile," attitude in games that's offensive. It's not rocket science. Can you make those characters? Sure. Should you make ALL your characters like that? No. Should you contribute to a horrible stereotype, even just once? We would all really like you to please not.

I totally agree with you Kara. I think many game developers have just brought up a female stereotype. I'm so sick of that cutesy princess girl or that voluptuous woman. I like the games with the kick ass girls in it, Robin from 'Rockin Robbin' f.e--- did I spell that right?
I hope that developers consider this.

I'm going to be honest here and say that every man (four out of four) who has worked on RockRobin with me has immediately told me that Robin is a "bitch" and that I need to "fix that." They also call her a slut, not including the other defamation by men not working on the project. It's so ingrained in our culture, that it frightens me, because I have to exist in it personally. I want that culture to change, and it can start anywhere, and the media that affects me the most, video games, is where I'm choosing to start.

I probably mentioned this before, but... Why is there still a discussion? Obviously people are just talking and talking... It's getting no where... We get it. You want equality. It's understandable. But, if you want change, actions are louder than words.

This is the very definition of offensive, and the least helpful thing you could have said, and everyone was told this several times already. Silencing a discussion sends the message that the problem isn't a problem at all, and allows the problem to perpetuate. Want the complaints to go away? Solve the problem, not the complaints. And your double-standard, and others in this thread, is staggering. When BxG was on the line, you and others were pretty vocal.

Not all feminists are evil and hate men. On the other hand, there percentage is quite low but they are the most vocal and unfortunately their views get portrayed out as the views of all of them.

This is the exact problematic thinking that was mentioned. It's not that ALL feminists are bad, just MOST of them? It's the same thing. You're using unfounded statistics as an excuse to dismiss or hate an entire group of people who just want women to have equality. Being against feminists means being against feminism, which means being against women having equality - which just boggles my mind why you wouldn't want that. Except, I do understand, and that's why I get so angry.

Want to see nerd culture through the eyes of a women just briefly? Look at these series of photos. It goes to an absurd level to point out every instance of "bewbs" and "no pants" that the photographer came across at GenCon. They may seem like small, background noise to you, and unfortunately to many women, but there are those who are tired of being exposed to this 12319823 times a day, when the male characters get clothes and empowering, meaningful poses. Think it's stupid to point that stuff out on those photos, because it's harmless or not even offensive at all? That's because nerd culture has normalized it, and even I'm like, "c'mon, her figure is too small to be offensive -" and I catch myself and realize I'm justifying it. You can't honestly say that a women walking down in that atmosphere doesn't get affected by that.

Lastly, I’ll end with this little girl. This was a corset booth, and that is a booth employee help this little girl try on a corset. Since it may not be clear, since I blurred out the little girl’s face, SHE’S ABOUT 9.

I can’t even articulate how incredibly angry this makes me. I can’t say that I’m surprised that female geek children would seek to emulate the incredibly unrealistic depictions of women that are part of the hobby. Still, it makes me sad and angry that this is something that is just “to be expected” for girl-children who are getting into gaming.

More than anything else in this post, this photo makes me really sad about the state of female depictions in gaming. I want so very badly to tell this little girl that she can look however she wants and still be valued by the gaming community as a whole, but I’m afraid that as things stand right now the “as a whole” bit would probably be a lie.

My father also took to dressing me up in "floozy" clothes when I was a child, because that's how women should look, or something. Thankfully, he finally buckled to my desire to dress up as Peter Pan for halloween instead.

There seems to be a sort of assumption behind this that men are just walking piles of prejudice - that even a little bit of sex-targeting will turn us into misogynists.

No, there isn't. Saying things like this is the biggest problem here - feminism comes up, it's about hating men. Puh-lease. Stop thinking that way. It's not true, and it's definitely not helpful or insightful in any way. You obviously don't want us to think you hate women because you like sexy little girls in your video games, why are you turning around and doing the same thing? Hating the patriarchy is not hating men, and it's not hating you. Unless you want to rabidly support and defend it. In which case, go to hell.

The problem is that video games IN GENERAL are targeted towards men. That is sexist and wrong. Games that aren't even supposed to be targeted towards men, when their male gaze is pointed out, then suddenly become for men, because it's the "last place men can go to escape from women." (an actual quote)

Remember when this thread started in the beginning, and several people didn't even see a problem at all? That games were for both genders, and what could silly wiminz possibly want? We told you. Now that it's clear that games target men and fail to simply not offend women? Now you're doing the justification LALALA! dance. First, you're willing to listen to concerns and investigate the problem, and then when you find out that the problem might involve making your video games less like porn, you back peddle and shut the door and claim you have the right to. What I see is a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears while victim-blaming; because it's MY fault that the state of the gaming industry is the way it is. I didn't "take action" enough (in the midst of being told to shut up.)

And, for the fortieth time, dating sims are mostly exempt from this, because they're specifically designed to be exploitative. Like porn. Speaking of ...

romance novels.

Also like otome, which is like porn. Are we going to start bringing up porn now? Have any of us brought up about how you should be ashamed to look at hentai or hardcore porn? No, because it's a personal pleasure exploitation fantasy that you seek out on your own. "Exploitation" is the key word here, because it specifically uses people (characters) for the pleasure of someone else. If you let that exploitation seep into everything, even non-porn, that's not okay. Video games are usually not porn, right? Then why does it feel that way constantly? Because the female characters, or their femininity, are exploited.

[DragoonHP]

Since someone was asking, the male gaze is what defines a game "for men," not the gameplay. The fact that the women are naked and the men are not, or the women are vapid play dolls, and the men are not, it's that the women pose is awkward demeaning ways, and the men do not. Etc. That's clearly targeted towards men, even though there was no reason for that particular game to be targeted only to men.

First commenting on the photo; did you ever saw that the female portrayed in the image is not of a human and the second fact being that she (the game character) might have need to hold that pose for a fraction of second, while the real humans were trying to hold that pose for longer.

So you are saying that there should be no game targeted towards male, but having a game targeted towards female is fine. The irony of it.

This is the very definition of offensive, and the least helpful thing you could have said, and everyone was told this several times already. Silencing a discussion sends the message that the problem isn't a problem at all, and allows the problem to perpetuate. Want the complaints to go away? Solve the problem, not the complaints. And your double-standard, and others in this thread, is staggering. When BxG was on the line, you and others were pretty vocal.

Who said anything about silencing anyway? Misinterpreting words and saying them don't make your opinion correct.
You say solve the problem; do you think a magic spell exists for it which will just clear off the problem in a snap.
And i remember you were quite vocal about it, trying to defend the notion of "no separate BxG sub-forum".

This is the exact problematic thinking that was mentioned. It's not that ALL feminists are bad, just MOST of them? It's the same thing. You're using unfounded statistics as an excuse to dismiss or hate an entire group of people who just want women to have equality. Being against feminists means being against feminism, which means being against women having equality - which just boggles my mind why you wouldn't want that. Except, I do understand, and that's why I get so angry.

I said... only some of them are "evil and hate men". How well you misinterpret my words.
So being against feminist make me a woman-hater. Such lovely thinking.

Equality according to a feminist; Women be treated as superior creatures, getting privileges such as reduced tax, reservations and stuff, not to mention leaving all the physical straining jobs to man... to point out a few.
How is this "equality"? From what I see it is anything but equality.
And if you ever need proof from me to back up my arguments, you just have to say; you will find enough proof from my side then you will ever be able to read.

And ever heard of BitingBeaver; I am pretty sure you would have. She wished that she had aborted his son because she caught him watching porn. She mentally abused the kid, trying to drum in him how women are superior creature.

And I am in favour of equality, but if you think you can keep the goodies to yourself and still wish to be called equal, then I can't see it happening any time soon.

And modern man understand what feminist are in reality and that's why they oppose it.

Want to see nerd culture through the eyes of a women just briefly? Look at these series of photos. It goes to an absurd level to point out every instance of "bewbs" and "no pants" that the photographer came across at GenCon. They may seem like small, background noise to you, and unfortunately to many women, but there are those who are tired of being exposed to this 12319823 times a day, when the male characters get clothes and empowering, meaningful poses. Think it's stupid to point that stuff out on those photos, because it's harmless or not even offensive at all? That's because nerd culture has normalized it, and even I'm like, "c'mon, her figure is too small to be offensive -" and I catch myself and realize I'm justifying it. You can't honestly say that a women walking down in that atmosphere doesn't get affected by that.

How is this nerd culture through women eyes? To me it looks like a teenager who was quite high on his hormones.
Male character get clothes and empowering, meaningful poses?
You got to be joking. Just because a male flaunting his bare body in games is not such a big issue doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Lastly, I’ll end with this little girl. This was a corset booth, and that is a booth employee help this little girl try on a corset. Since it may not be clear, since I blurred out the little girl’s face, SHE’S ABOUT 9.

I can’t even articulate how incredibly angry this makes me. I can’t say that I’m surprised that female geek children would seek to emulate the incredibly unrealistic depictions of women that are part of the hobby. Still, it makes me sad and angry that this is something that is just “to be expected” for girl-children who are getting into gaming.

More than anything else in this post, this photo makes me really sad about the state of female depictions in gaming. I want so very badly to tell this little girl that she can look however she wants and still be valued by the gaming community as a whole, but I’m afraid that as things stand right now the “as a whole” bit would probably be a lie.

"that is just “to be expected” for girl-children who are getting into gaming."
False... that is something you have made yourself believe in. To me see seems like a child model and she is not exclusive, a boy has to go through the same too, but you know what, he is a boy, so it of course don't matter. After all he doesn't belong to XX chromosome category.

And I will end with a boy called Brandon who was mind abused (probably physically abused too) by her feminist mother who think that just because his son had the equipment (more or less citing her) made him a future rapist.
You may find this offending, but this is the truth.
You go in such pain to prove your points, but did you ever think of looking over the other side; maybe the grass isn't as greener as you think on the other side of the river.

And just to point something out, that's a girl who is helping her in dressing. Now you can drone about how it is a male-dominated field and all that... and feel free...

My father also took to dressing me up in "floozy" clothes when I was a child, because that's how women should look, or something. Thankfully, he finally buckled to my desire to dress up as Peter Pan for halloween instead.

Yup and my Father didn't let my sisters do any thing that will require use of physical strength, instead I was chosen to do it because I am a man; this is my duty.

No, there isn't. Saying things like this is the biggest problem here - feminism comes up, it's about hating men. Puh-lease. Stop thinking that way. It's not true, and it's definitely not helpful or insightful in any way. You obviously don't want us to think you hate women because you like sexy little girls in your video games, why are you turning around and doing the same thing? Hating the patriarchy is not hating men, and it's not hating you. Unless you want to rabidly support and defend it. In which case, go to hell.

I say the same thing; just opposite.
You obviously think that any man who don't bow in front of your views is a woman-hater.
And yes, feminism as a whole is about hating men. Feminist obviously don't want us to think that they hate men because that will slow down their progress.

The problem is that video games IN GENERAL are targeted towards men. That is sexist and wrong. Games that aren't even supposed to be targeted towards men, when their male gaze is pointed out, then suddenly become for men, because it's the "last place men can go to escape from women." (an actual quote)

So you will rather have games targeted towards Female in general?

Remember when this thread started in the beginning, and several people didn't even see a problem at all? That games were for both genders, and what could silly wiminz possibly want? We told you. Now that it's clear that games target men and fail to simply not offend women? Now you're doing the justification LALALA! dance. First, you're willing to listen to concerns and investigate the problem, and then when you find out that the problem might involve making your video games less like porn, you back peddle and shut the door and claim you have the right to. What I see is a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears while victim-blaming; because it's MY fault that the state of the gaming industry is the way it is. I didn't "take action" enough (in the midst of being told to shut up.)

Oh... so games targeted towards male audience is like porn, so what will you call games targeted towards females? Please tell me.
And do you think that as soon as the problem is presented, a fairy will come down from heaven (or whatever) and solve the problems. Everyone is trying, but behaving like a spoiled child about it won't solve it. If no one was interested in "silly wiminz" problems, these thread had been dead already.
Everyone is trying. But no, it isn't enough. No they want instant result.
Well reality to you; real life is not your instant pizza delivery.

"What I see is a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears while victim-blaming;" exactly my thoughts.

If you let that exploitation seep into everything, even non-porn, that's not okay. Video games are usually not porn, right? Then why does it feel that way constantly? Because the female characters, or their femininity, are exploited.

I hope you remember the rapelay incident?
Wait, I can bet my life you do. Feminist made an uproar out of it but where were these feminist when a rape BL (forgot the name) game was released?
Probably playing it, if I am allowed to hazard a guess.

And you seem to ignore the fact that in female-oriented games, males are exploited.

EDIT: Deleted the extra quote and added the missing quote.

[J. Datie]

At first:

I said... only some of them are "evil and hate men". How well you misinterpret my words.

But then!

And yes, feminism as a whole is about hating men. Feminist obviously don't want us to think that they hate men because that will slow down their progress.

It can't be both!

And modern man understand what feminist are in reality and that's why they oppose it.

My understanding of feminism comes from witnessing a certain self-proclaimed feminist on this forum decrying sexism against both men and women. Or am I just not considered modern?

And the existence of sexism against men doesn't make sexism against women OK at all. I don't see why it seems to be considered weird to hate both. I just want some friggin games where the people that aren't part of the target market are treated as nicely as the people that are.

[DragoonHP]

At first:

I said... only some of them are "evil and hate men". How well you misinterpret my words.

But then!

And yes, feminism as a whole is about hating men. Feminist obviously don't want us to think that they hate men because that will slow down their progress.

It can't be both!

And modern man understand what feminist are in reality and that's why they oppose it.

My understanding of feminism comes from witnessing a certain self-proclaimed feminist on this forum decrying sexism against both men and women. Or am I just not considered modern?

And the existence of sexism against men doesn't make sexism against women OK at all. I don't see why it seems to be considered weird to hate both. I just want some friggin games where the people that aren't part of the target market are treated as nicely as the people that are.

Hmm... perhaps.
But then again it can be considering the radical nature of the feminist.
As one of my link will tell, many people who support feminist don't even know what it really is now.
And the keyword here is now.

Some links for reading... feel free to disregard these content as male yapping... because I have a feeling it will be going to be regarded as that...
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 855AAK9Y10
http://alettertothetimes.wordpress.com/ ... -feminism/

[Camille]

Wanting equality and more representation for women in games =/= wanting there to be absolutely no games targeted towards men ever. BioWare seems to be doing a fairly good job of making games for both genders (their games still have some problems, but overall a great step in the right direction). But "games for guys" will always exist and I don't really see a problem with that except that some of these games perpetuate some stereotypes about women that make me somewhat uncomfortable. But I agree that some otome games and whatnot do the same thing to guys, so to each their own, I suppose. Doctor Nerdlove wrote up a great follow-up article about nerds and male privilege that I think everyone should read, by the way.

As women, we are used to most everything being male-oriented. We're not saying we'd like all of that to stop, but would more accurate representation for us really be that bad? (apparently it would be, according to most of the replies in this thread!) That's the thing. As women, we're used to compromising and giving up freedoms so that men feel comfortable. It's happened throughout human history and still happens most of the time today. But ask men to compromise a little so that we can be more comfortable and feel more safe in fandom? Suddenly we're evil man-hating femmenazis. Growing up, I was used to playing games with ONLY male protagonists and what few female protagonists existed were generally scantily clad and lacked personality or depth. When I was little, I didn't realize this was a problem. I thought that was just "the way things were". Now that I'm older, I understand that it IS a problem. Do I still enjoy games with male protagonists? Sure! But I still think it'd be nice to be able to play games where the female characters aren't simply there as sex objects. Even in otome games, which are supposed to be "for women", the female characters--particularly the main character--are still treated like sex objects. You can tell a lot of Japanese otome games are made by teams of men who think they know what women want.

And I really don't like the whole mentality that "all feminists are man-haters". We just want some more equality. There is no way you can look at the world today and tell me that it IS equal, because it's not.

[B E A N]

I'm going to be honest here and say that every man (four out of four) who has worked on RockRobin with me has immediately told me that Robin is a "bitch" and that I need to "fix that." They also call her a slut, not including the other defamation by men not working on the project. It's so ingrained in our culture, that it frightens me, because I have to exist in it personally. I want that culture to change, and it can start anywhere, and the media that affects me the most, video games, is where I'm choosing to start.

Sheesh, what sort of people do you work with? If it's people you normally trust, maybe you have, in fact, accidentally created a "bitch stereotype" character? If it's people you don't normally trust, what do other women say about the character? I invented quite a few assholes and bastards in my lifetime, some intentionally, others unintentionally. I wouldn't find the notion unrealistic that other people should create bitch characters.

This is the very definition of offensive, and the least helpful thing you could have said, and everyone was told this several times already. Silencing a discussion sends the message that the problem isn't a problem at all, and allows the problem to perpetuate. Want the complaints to go away? Solve the problem, not the complaints. And your double-standard, and others in this thread, is staggering. When BxG was on the line, you and others were pretty vocal.

You sound like someone I could ask the same question I asked Auro-Cyanide a little earlier: What can I, as a writer and an aspiring game-maker, do to solve the problem?

This is the exact problematic thinking that was mentioned. It's not that ALL feminists are bad, just MOST of them? It's the same thing. You're using unfounded statistics as an excuse to dismiss or hate an entire group of people who just want women to have equality. Being against feminists means being against feminism, which means being against women having equality - which just boggles my mind why you wouldn't want that. Except, I do understand, and that's why I get so angry.

So it's equality in game targeting you want, is it that?

Want to see nerd culture through the eyes of a women just briefly?

Yup, that's the nerd culture. It's fantasy stereotype, MALE fantasy stereotype, you're perfectly right about that. And you know what? We KNOW it's stereotypical. We know that this unrealistic, sexist depiction is normal in the context of entertainment. Mind you, not just games. Movies too. These pictures are wish fulfillment. And anyone able to judge Larry Elmore's talent as an artist by pointing out that the women he draws have breasts... I think I can go without the judgement of that person.

I believe that it's an entirely different think to objectify ficticious people for the sake of entertainment and to objectify real people in real life. To say that both are synonymous is the same bullshit as people claiming that watching pornography is a factor for inflicting sexual violence on other people. Statistics suggests that it's the other way around: countries in which large amounts of porn are legal have a lower number of sexual offenders than countries that largely restrict porn.

Lastly, I’ll end with this little girl. This was a corset booth, and that is a booth employee help this little girl try on a corset. Since it may not be clear, since I blurred out the little girl’s face, SHE’S ABOUT 9.

Yup, that's sick. Just like beauty pageants for children are sick. Real people don't deserve to be presented like that. And they can't make a conscious choice to present themselves like that yet.

The problem is that video games IN GENERAL are targeted towards men. That is sexist and wrong. Games that aren't even supposed to be targeted towards men, when their male gaze is pointed out, then suddenly become for men, because it's the "last place men can go to escape from women." (an actual quote)

Many are, yes. Some aren't. A few are geared at women specifically. Again, large parts of the entertainment industry is like this. This isn't about games alone.

First, you're willing to listen to concerns and investigate the problem, and then when you find out that the problem might involve making your video games less like porn, you back peddle and shut the door and claim you have the right to.

Sorry, I do have the right, and I intend to write porn. Because I don't think porn is bad.

Have any of us brought up about how you should be ashamed to look at hentai or hardcore porn? No, because it's a personal pleasure exploitation fantasy that you seek out on your own. "Exploitation" is the key word here, because it specifically uses people (characters) for the pleasure of someone else. If you let that exploitation seep into everything, even non-porn, that's not okay. Video games are usually not porn, right? Then why does it feel that way constantly? Because the female characters, or their femininity, are exploited.

I'm not ashamed to look at porn, and I reject the idea that I should be ashamed. Porn is wish fulfillment, video games are wish fulfillment, a whole cartload of entertainment is wish fulfillment. And yup, characters are exploited in both porn and video games. And that's okay because they're characters. They're fictional. They're not real people. And if they are - if they are porn stars, for examples - a large majority of them are doing it by their own decision. They are adults responsible for their own actions, they do it because it earns them money, sometimes even good money, and if I, by watching them, exploit them, then because these fine women exploited themselves before that. Not that they would think of it as exploitation; if they did, they wouldn't do porn. (Unless they were somehow forced to do it, in which case we're not just talking about porn, we're talking about slavery, which is a different issue altogether.)

I believe this discussion is making a mountain out of a molehill, and that it shouldn't.

[Aleema]

@DragoonHP: So, the crux of your response is that I just totally misinterpreted your POV about feminists, yet you go ahead and then shit on feminists?

First commenting on the photo; did you ever saw that the female portrayed in the image is not of a human and the second fact being that she (the game character) might have need to hold that pose for a fraction of second, while the real humans were trying to hold that pose for longer.

I'm having difficulty understanding you. Is your question, "Did you ever think for a moment that the woman in that image is not human (so she doesn't have to conform to human anatomy) and that she might have a reason to be in that pose, or that that pose only lasted for a fraction of a second?" Yes, sure, I did. For the first 10,000 times I saw it. Then I realized the real reason. Because she's being sexualized, and that gets covered up by justifications. Just admit that this pose was drawn to showcase the woman's breasts and butt - everyone else has. Any other reason is only lies and convenient excuses.

So you are saying that there should be no game targeted towards male, but having a game targeted towards female is fine. The irony of it.

So you will rather have games targeted towards Female in general?

Nope. Not what I'm saying. Next question?

Who said anything about silencing anyway?

Fawn, which was why I quoted her. Also, PyTom. Also, everyone who seeks to derail the topic, which includes you.

And i remember you were quite vocal about it, trying to defend the notion of "no separate BxG sub-forum".

Who's putting words in someone's mouth now? Please show me a quote of me saying this. And I will happily defend everything I've said in that thread, and just as easily admit to any faults. I am against favoring any genre over another, and my objections were to that. There were MANY concepts flying around in that thread, and the "shove GxB into its own area" was still alive and well when I expressed objection - yet it somehow came off as being anti-BxG subforum as well. I am against both, just FYI, because the intent is the same.

So being against feminist make me a woman-hater.

In a round-about way, yes. It's okay to have issues with a specific feminist, which you can talk about in another topic. Bringing it up here is derailing.

Equality according to a feminist; Women be treated as superior creatures

Whoa. Wrong. Stop right there. No. You have it completely wrong. Wow. Where's your proof of this? WHY did you come to think that? That is so wrong, and, again, exactly the problematic thinking that was brought up. You claimed I was misinterpreting your words, and then went right ahead and validated everything I said.

I don't think I can read and respond the rest of your post. It's so incredibly wrong. It physically makes me ill. At least your true feelings have come to light. At least everyone can see what you wrote, because you say it as plain as day.

---

Sheesh, what sort of people do you work with? If it's people you normally trust, maybe you have, in fact, accidentally created a "bitch stereotype" character? If it's people you don't normally trust, what do other women say about the character? I invented quite a few assholes and bastards in my lifetime, some intentionally, others unintentionally. I wouldn't find the notion unrealistic that other people should create bitch characters.

The thing is, the very word "bitch" is sexist. It's not okay to use it as a matter-of-fact description of women. And yes, the people I've worked with range from extremely trusting, "normal" boys who I liked, to slight-undertones-of-chauvinist. But they basically all said the same thing. If you're wondering, yes, women find Robin to be empowering or "kick ass", and when she comes off as too aggressive in scenes, they will tell me, and it's usually as easy as better explaining WHY she's angry, whereas, when I asked these men what I could do to help make her less offensive, they simply could not tell me. Honest to goodness, they didn't know. She was "just a bitch." Which leads me to believe that her personality in general was unattractive to them, which is something I'm not interested in changing completely, for many reasons. She's a punk rocker, and she's put in an awful position in the beginning of the story. I'm not going to apologize.

What can I, as a writer and an aspiring game-maker, do to solve the problem?

Have a woman look over your story, art, characters, something. Get women involved in your development. I completely understand that it's easy to see how certain tropes aren't offensive to certain people, so getting other perspectives (that don't just mirror your own) will help in turning those tropes into characters. Further, when someone says that it is offensive, don't just spurn them. Either say nothing at all, or, I dunno, listen to them. Your thoughts on the matter aren't going to make it less offensive, honestly.

So it's equality in game targeting you want, is it that?

What I want is when a topic like this comes up, that exactly what happened wouldn't happen anymore. Saying that games aren't sexist, that sexism is okay, etc ... that really hurts me, more than the video game ever did. It's true, video games do less damage than these discussions. Because then I get to hear people's awful opinions about women and their right to have them, and it really makes me feel like less of a person.

To the matter at hand, what I would like to see is more catering to women. I know I'm not going to get the 0% fanservice for men, and I wouldn't even want it like that, because that would mean that *I* wouldn't get any fanservice. I'm human and I have a labido just like anyone else. I want to see attractive men, and more female-centric stories (about non-sexed-up women). Women characters that aren't just like every other female trope (preferably, ones with spine that don't completely depend on a man).

I believe that it's an entirely different think to objectify ficticious people for the sake of entertainment and to objectify real people in real life.

We have touched upon this in this thread before, and it's not that the material makes you sexist, is that sexist people are more prone to like it. Further, I am a woman, and this DOES affect me, because of discussions like this, as I've said above. I feel like complete and utter shit just reading things like Dragoon's post. Defending these stereotypes pushes away women and tells them that their input doesn't matter, which is what's truly sexist here.

A few are geared at women specifically.

Hmm, I'd like to know what you're referring to ... Barbie Pony Adventures, or something? Don't you see how that might be a little sexist to assume that's what girls want, like Lego's goddamned pink bricks?

Sorry, I do have the right, and I intend to write porn. Because I don't think porn is bad.

Not what I meant, sorry. You can make porn. That is very much your right. But know when it is porn, and when it is not. Know that your general audience game is not a suitable place to have porn. That's all.

I believe this discussion is making a mountain out of a molehill, and that it shouldn't.

As the discussion goes along, it self-proves that it wasn't a molehill after all. You basically said as much earlier in your post, where you admit that it's part and parcel with nerd culture, and women, who WANT to be nerds, would like it not to be.

Also, BEAN, I found your response to me very pleasant. I can't explain it too well, but I felt you were engaging in a dialogue with me, which was nice.

[PyTom]

Speaking as an admin, for a moment:

This topic does not have some sort of pre-defined conclusion. Trying to stifle discussion by bringing up "derailing" - as if the discussion was somehow on rails - is not conducive to debate. You're not required to address any point - but trying to avoid addressing them by bringing up "derailing" is uncivil.

Similarly, people may bring up any evidence they want, to discuss the basic topic of sexism in games and society. Please don't try to limit the discussion to anything narrower than that, as a way of trying to get a particular point across. Address points, rather than trying to claim that they are not legitimately discussed in this thread.

Finally, realize that this forum does have a topic. If there's something we - as developers of visual novels and similar story-based games - should be doing, that's on topic. Discussion of society as a whole is only useful insofar as it helps support determine how to develop visual novels.

I think this discussion has been good because we've addressed each other's points - and kept it mostly civil, and addressed each other. Let's keep that up.

[B E A N]

The thing is, the very word "bitch" is sexist. It's not okay to use it as a matter-of-fact description of women. And yes, the people I've worked with range from extremely trusting, "normal" boys who I liked, to slight-undertones-of-chauvinist. But they basically all said the same thing. If you're wondering, yes, women find Robin to be empowering or "kick ass", and when she comes off as too aggressive in scenes, they will tell me, and it's usually as easy as better explaining WHY she's angry, whereas, when I asked these men what I could do to help make her less offensive, they simply could not tell me. Honest to goodness, they didn't know. She was "just a bitch." Which leads me to believe that her personality in general was unattractive to them, which is something I'm not interested in changing completely, for many reasons. She's a punk rocker, and she's put in an awful position in the beginning of the story. I'm not going to apologize.

"Bitch" is a stereotype, very much like "bimbo" is a stereotype, and again, it's wish fulfillment, type male. "If I can't get a woman, obviously that has nothing to do with me but the fact that this woman is a bitch." Wish: I am not responsible. Fulfillment: the bitch is.

Actually, punk rocker women are pretty badass in my book. How far are you with your game? It sounds like something I'd like to play.

Have a woman look over your story, art, characters, something. Get women involved in your development. I completely understand that it's easy to see how certain tropes aren't offensive to certain people, so getting other perspectives (that don't just mirror your own) will help in turning those tropes into characters. Further, when someone says that it is offensive, don't just spurn them. Either say nothing at all, or, I dunno, listen to them. Your thoughts on the matter aren't going to make it less offensive, honestly.

If you don't mind, I can give you access to the script for my current production. However, it's porn, so if you don't mind reading that and if you don't mind signing an NDA beforehand, I'll gladly have you read over it. So far, our voice actress is the only female who read it, and she got paid for acting it out, so I think her opinion might have been a little skewed.

To the matter at hand, what I would like to see is more catering to women. I know I'm not going to get the 0% fanservice for men, and I wouldn't even want it like that, because that would mean that *I* wouldn't get any fanservice. I'm human and I have a labido just like anyone else. I want to see attractive men, and more female-centric stories (about non-sexed-up women). Women characters that aren't just like every other female trope (preferably, ones with spine that don't completely depend on a man).

Different to do. I really don't understand women. I'm a man, and unfortunately, that is a stereotype that is true for me: I don't get women. And I think many men don't.

We have touched upon this in this thread before, and it's not that the material makes you sexist, is that sexist people are more prone to like it. Further, I am a woman, and this DOES affect me, because of discussions like this, as I've said above. I feel like complete and utter shit just reading things like Dragoon's post. Defending these stereotypes pushes away women and tells them that their input doesn't matter, which is what's truly sexist here.

Don't get me wrong here, but that sounds as though your problem isn't really with sexist games or sexist depiction of women in the media, but with people who cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality. If people (read: men) were able to accept women as women and not as targets of wish-fulfillment and objectification, you would have less of a problem with the depiction of fictional females, right?

Hmm, I'd like to know what you're referring to ... Barbie Pony Adventures, or something? Don't you see how that might be a little sexist to assume that's what girls want, like Lego's goddamned pink bricks?

Uhm, Barbie Pony Adventures is for girls, not for women. However, quite a few women I know like stuff like SingStar and other casual games you can play together with others. Games with social components, if you know what I mean. Not necessarily action games with strong female leads. (Metroid comes to mind, and even Metroid caught some fire because one of the newer installments dared depict Samus Aran, a kickass warrior in my book, as a woman with feelings who looks up to a man.)

Not what I meant, sorry. You can make porn. That is very much your right. But know when it is porn, and when it is not. Know that your general audience game is not a suitable place to have porn. That's all.

Gotcha.

Also, BEAN, I found your response to me very pleasant. I can't explain it too well, but I felt you were engaging in a dialogue with me, which was nice.

Thanks. For a person some here seem to consider some sort of radical man-hater, you sound rather reasonable.

[Arcanum]

Uhm, Barbie Pony Adventures is for girls, not for women. However, quite a few women I know like stuff like SingStar and other casual games you can play together with others. Games with social components, if you know what I mean. Not necessarily action games with strong female leads.

I think the point here is not limiting women to those type of games, or assuming that they're unable to enjoy anything but… well, what's usually aimed at girls. I mean, I'm one of those girls who love casual games, but that doesn't detract from the fact that I like - as many other girls do - other type of games (and would love if the leads in said games happened to be strong females now and then). Some of those women who enjoy casual gaming and don't touch action/adventure/rpg games might even give them a try if they found out they could play as a female character - and one that doesn't wear boob plate at that. Why should all the fun of a RPG, or a FPS, be limited to a male viewpoint?

If people (read: men) were able to accept women as women and not as targets of wish-fulfillment and objectification, you would have less of a problem with the depiction of fictional females, right?

I realize this was aimed at Aleema, but that brings up a necessary point that women aren't affected only because men view them as targets of wish-fulfillment, but because women view themselves as such because of the images of "what a woman is supposed to be". As women, we're constantly bombarded by images that we're supposed to be thin, pretty, sexy, or else we have no value at all, and games enforce these stereotypes when, say, a kickass female appears on screen, but all positive attention is paid to the fact that she's underdressed and has double D cups that bounce at every step she gives. Even in our damn entertainment we're told how we're supposed to be. Women who aren't white, thin, able bodied, hot, etc, aren't wanted - that's what those games say to us, that's why we feel bad when confronted with said games.

[Dollywitch]

The issue for me in that scenario is when the men have actual ARMOR, while the women get battle bikinis. Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans. I'd have less of an issue if there were men also running around in ridiculous clothes, but those seem to be few and far between.

Played any JRPGs lately?

Armor?

Not ridiculous? And that one's a front line fighter!

Most modern JRPGs put the main characters into something resembling a Japanese visual kei band on stage. The image of the female fighter in revealing clothes, on the other hand, goes back to the 1920s and the early "barbarian adventure" novels. It has since been picked up by fantasy writers time and again, and it is a typical (admittedly sexist) staple in fantasy literature. Video games reflect it whenever they go for a comparable setting, yes. But that's nothing more than a stereotype hardly anyone would take seriously.

Replies like this are very much the bread and butter of how not to reply to a feminist/women's issues thread.

You can't defeat such an argument with a few isolated examples when we're talking about trends. Obviously, picking a few rare examples of good female characters doesn't prove there isn't a problem with female representation, just as under-equipped male characters don't either. Also, they're often under-equipped for *different reasons*. With men, it may be sexual to some degree, but it's also about power - while they lack armour, they're often showing off a strong or sleek physique that gives the impression they're capable. JRPGs can be strange due to their feminised leads, but Japan does often have different standards for these things.

I feel people are being vastly intellectually dishonest when they make replies like this, or just clueless. You can't not have noticed that, on average, female characters tend to have less appropriate designs.