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Keilis wrote:How's sexually harassing a woman considered sexism? That just means a) you dig women and b) you're fucked in the head.

It's a symptom of sexism, is what I said, and it perpetuates it. The "b" in your analysis is where the sexism comes in, thinking that it's okay to harass women, because they either like it, should like it, or you don't care what they think because they're there for your pleasure or simply lesser human beings. There are those that are mentally unstable, yes, but lots of rapists don't even realize what they did was rape, and lots of harassers don't realize what they're doing is wrong, and they're otherwise "normal" people. It's not just "something wrong with their head" people that do this stuff, and "digging women" is not the opposite of sexism, mind you. Objectification is not hate, but love - for the lack of their humanity.

AxemRed wrote:And do you, or do you not, agree with the statement: "it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer"?

And what if one of us disagreed with that statement? What magically happens? You have a clear conscious and don't have to consider a female perspective in future games you make? Why would any of us give you that opportunity? Or is it because you absolutely need to discount a feminist for something she said? Or am I just not rereading your posts enough to miss that you're actually being helpful and supportive by demanding an answer to a question you already know the answer to? I realize those are grand conjectures, so feel free to prove me wrong by stating your actual motive.

For the record, minor inconveniences, when repeated over and over, and when justified by the community because your inconveniences don't matter because of your gender, will absolutely ruin an entire game at the drop of a hat. Not only is it hard finding a game to like as a women, but as a gamer in general. Liking things is not inherent from us playing them, and loving them is reserved only for those that give us a wonderful experience. Yes, it is hard to find a game to like as a female gamer, because the games don't like us back.

J. Datie wrote:Sounds like we're getting into what Extra Credits calls "lazy design." They talk about it in the episode about propaganda games. I recommend giving it a watch.

Laziness is basically the definition of sexism (thinking about other people is hard), and if it's not, it certainly is the proud parent of it. Anyway, that's a good episode that I recommend.

@AxemRed. Yes, it's hard finding games to fully enjoy as a female gamer, I said it in my previous post. Happy now? I do not disagree with this statement. Being able to play other games is a looooooooong way off actually being able to enjoy them and feel recognised as part of the audience. Females SHOULD NOT have to make do with what is made for guys and be happy with it.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have an analogy:

Men don't shop as much as women, they don't don't by as many clothes. Therefore they are a smaller market. They only really have a choice between cheap outlets or expensive outlets. There is no reasonably affordable alternative, while women have a great deal of options.

Now lets say the situation got worse. The powers that be decided that women were a much better market, they spent more money. So they cut back on the male clothes and replaced them with more female clothes, despite the fact women already had so many options. Lets say the ratio of female clothes to male clothes was the same as the ration of games that saw females as a part of the audience to those that don't. Suddenly men have very little choice, and they all have to buy the exact same clothes.

Lets say you are one of the guys that would like more options. None of these clothes suit you and it sucks you and your friends all have to wear the same thing. You realise that quite a few people feel the same. You decide to be more vocal about what you wanted, to prove you were a market.

Now... How would you feel if you were meet with this from the girls:

"Well, you have to spend money. Who cares that there aren't any options for you to buy from, money talks. You have to prove you are a market!"

"Wear girls clothes. Who cares that they weren't made for you, it's all the same material, right? Here. this extra large boob tube will fit."

"Make your own clothes. That will prove there is a market. Oh, or spend tens of thousands setting up your own shop, you have to prove there is a market."

"Lol, nice clothes aren't for guys, deal with it."

How would you feel?

@Aleema I'm not justifying it. I'm pointing out the problem that hadn't seemed to be pointed at yet: It's the person that does awful things, not the game. The solution is to make sure more people can separate reality from fantasy and not penalize those who are mature enough.
I'll post what I said again:

If they let their fandom define their life and believe real life should be like in their entertainment they will most likey not act appropriately. That is the person's problem, not the game's problem. It's bad parenting in most cases- parents let the TV do the parenting, so the child takes cues from the entertainment.

No one was there to suggest "Son, this stuff isn't real. It's just for fun, nothing like that happens in real life. Real people are not like this." ect. Feel free to disagree, but I've noticed people who have more attentive (yet not overly sheltering) parents seem to be able to separate fantasy from reality.


If a person keeps setting things on fire, it's not the matches they've used's fault. Keep them away from matches, but don't ban matches, because there are plenty of sane people who know how to use them properly.


I agree with what AxemRed is trying to get across- No one is denying there is a problem, but we don't see that it's so severe that it calls for these kinds of reactions. Crying sexism and blaming people for the problems you see (that most people don't care as much for) just makes you look irrationally angry; not to mention people don't like being defined as bad guys for something they find harmless.

If you want a change, take the middle path, be assertive but patient to make changes. As you can see there are many of us here that don't find your problems to be so horrible, you're not going to convince people like us that something more should be done by pointing fingers at a large group of people (most of whom may be innocent) who share different opinions here.

Not to mention, this is nothing compared to horrible things that have happened in the past and even today. No one's being truly oppressed- we should be thankful that most of us live in places where women are even ALLOWED to play games, let alone play games with female leads or feminine themes.


I have one thing I agree on, though: Women should never be labeled as weak. Everyone is strong in their own way, female, male, gay, trans... Unfortunately in most cultures it's more acceptable for a woman to show weakness than a man, so, they get labeled that way... Their hard work goes unnoticed: Everyone should always remember that some women went through a lot of hell to give us life. Pregnancy and birth are never completely pleasant, neither is taking care of a fussy infant. A mother-to-be's belly is just as powerful as a man's biceps!

A match is a tool, a video game is a representation of ourselves. A game was made by people, the same people who reside in the community that refuses to acknowledge its hostility towards demographics. Addressing the community is addressing the developers, which addresses the games, since they don't just make themselves. The point of this thread is that games are not fun for us or acknowledge we even exist, not just that the gaming community is in a terrible state, but it doesn't help. Because frankly, repeatedly saying "citation needed" or "I don't see it" or "you're being irrationally angry" after hearing such is pretty much denial.

Also, your post warrants this link.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:How would you feel?

That would suck a lot, but considering most males really don't care much about clothes....</missingthepoint>

Looking over this thread, it seems like both sides can't (or won't) listen to what the other is arguing. The guys refuse to believe that the situation really is bad for females and the girls refuse to believe that anything that showcases females is anything less than sexism.

For the women:
Not every game with a scandly clad female is about them being simple eyecandy. Take Bayonetta for example, while she may be a bit...revieling...she's still a powerful woman who takes charge of the situation. There's also Gears of War 3's Anya (fully armored BTW). While in the first 2 games she was more or less just the mission giver, in the 3rd game she really gets in the thick of the fighting like the other men.

For the men:
Yes, it really is as bad as everyone is saying. You can't play a game without having a sexy woman appear on screen (war games notwithstanding) Again with the Bayonetta example: she's sexy for the sake of the guys. Had she been an average kind of woman, chances are you wouldn't have ever heard of the game. Then there's Ivy from Soul Calibur; almost 50 years old and she wears almost nothing.

As for the L.A. Noir thing: it's no fair to judge it when those specific cases were based on a very famous cold case.

(I'm not going to argue much about this. What I posted is just my observation, I'm not taking sides here.)

HigurashiKira wrote:and the girls refuse to believe that anything that showcases females is anything less than sexism.

Something tells me you didn't read this thread at all. I hope papillon's head doesn't explode reading this. You've completely missed her point, and the point of the thread Auro linked to: sexy women ARE OKAY.

Also, you contradicted yourself by saying Bayonetta shouldn't be offensive to the girls, and then telling the boys that she is.

Also, it's completely fair to judge LA Noire however I want. I was uncomfortable with it, and that's legitimate. I didn't pick up the game with that knowledge, and learning it, I put it down. Others are still free to enjoy the game how they please, but I personally will not continue to.

The main problem with this issue is that any attempt to discuss it quickly devolves into senseless bickering :V

Games a) can't be taken in consideration alone, because they're a reflection of what other forms of entertainment portrait of women daily (and how many people who play games don't indulge in another media?) and b)affect even the most sane, realistic type of people. It's not just a case of bad parenting, of mindless fanboys thinking women are their sex object. It's about women themselves getting an idea that if they're not thin, white, straight and able-bodied, who do not dress/behave as the entertainment industry portraits them to be, they're somehow less deserving of respect as a woman, or are less female or feminine - shit, even a lesser human being because of that. Games in themselves are only a part of the bigger picture that includes comics, movies, magazines, tv shows and books that are constantly sending the message of what consists to be a woman to women - but they are a part of it (and here goes the "games geared toward females", which you can easily pick from the crowd because they're pink or pastel or cute and casual - because girls are casual gamers, amrite? and they can't possibly like gore and "normal" games, yeah?). The number of women who don't feel personally victimized by that do not exclude in any way how many women develop serious issues because the female characters they see portrayed everywhere are thin white gals photoshopped/modeled/created into perfection.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:"Make your own clothes. That will prove there is a market. Oh, or spend tens of thousands setting up your own shop, you have to prove there is a market."

This one is legitimate, I think.

You can't force someone who doesn't want to take a risk to take it, just because you want them to, if you're not willing to take the risk yourself. And at the same time, if you do identify a market opportunity that noone else is addressing, you'll be able to corner that market and charge whatever it will bear.

The modern world of computer games - where anyone can buy any game over the internet with a few clicks and a credit card - is probably about as close to an ideal market that one will get. While it takes money to get started - that's money that _someone_ needs to put down, and you're the one promoting a position. Once the game is made, anyone who wants to can go and buy it.

Aleema wrote:

AxemRed wrote:And do you, or do you not, agree with the statement: "it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer"?

And what if one of us disagreed with that statement? What magically happens? You have a clear conscious and don't have to consider a female perspective in future games you make? Why would any of us give you that opportunity? Or is it because you absolutely need to discount a feminist for something she said? Or am I just not rereading your posts enough to miss that you're actually being helpful and supportive by demanding an answer to a question you already know the answer to? I realize those are grand conjectures, so feel free to prove me wrong by stating your actual motive.

I don't agree with the statement, so I'm curious about someone with an opposing view (and their reasoning). If no one agrees with the statement, that's also interesting.

>Or is it because you absolutely need to discount a feminist for something she said?
That's not a question, that's an accusation. I'm also not sure where you got that idea.

>an answer to a question you already know the answer to?
I'm no mind reader, I don't -know-. I can make an educated guess, but it might be wrong.

Aleema wrote:For the record, minor inconveniences, when repeated over and over, and when justified by the community because your inconveniences don't matter because of your gender, will absolutely ruin an entire game at the drop of a hat. Not only is it hard finding a game to like as a women, but as a gamer in general. Liking things is not inherent from us playing them, and loving them is reserved only for those that give us a wonderful experience. Yes, it is hard to find a game to like as a female gamer, because the games don't like us back.

>Liking things is not inherent from us playing them
Wait, what? You play games you don't like? Why would you do that?

Auro-Cyanide wrote:@AxemRed. Yes, it's hard finding games to fully enjoy as a female gamer, I said it in my previous post. Happy now? I do not disagree with this statement. Being able to play other games is a looooooooong way off actually being able to enjoy them and feel recognised as part of the audience. Females SHOULD NOT have to make do with what is made for guys and be happy with it.

>Yes, it's hard finding games to fully enjoy as a female gamer, I said it in my previous post.
No you didn't. You said there were problems with games, not that those problems are so severe and widespread it becomes problematic finding likeable games.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:Ladies and Gentlemen, I have an analogy:

Men don't shop as much as women, they don't don't by as many clothes. Therefore they are a smaller market. They only really have a choice between cheap outlets or expensive outlets. There is no reasonably affordable alternative, while women have a great deal of options.

Now lets say the situation got worse. The powers that be decided that women were a much better market, they spent more money. So they cut back on the male clothes and replaced them with more female clothes, despite the fact women already had so many options. Lets say the ratio of female clothes to male clothes was the same as the ration of games that saw females as a part of the audience to those that don't. Suddenly men have very little choice, and they all have to buy the exact same clothes.

Lets say you are one of the guys that would like more options. None of these clothes suit you and it sucks you and your friends all have to wear the same thing. You realise that quite a few people feel the same. You decide to be more vocal about what you wanted, to prove you were a market.

Now... How would you feel if you were meet with this from the girls:

"Well, you have to spend money. Who cares that there aren't any options for you to buy from, money talks. You have to prove you are a market!"

"Wear girls clothes. Who cares that they weren't made for you, it's all the same material, right? Here. this extra large boob tube will fit."

"Make your own clothes. That will prove there is a market. Oh, or spend tens of thousands setting up your own shop, you have to prove there is a market."

"Lol, nice clothes aren't for guys, deal with it."

How would you feel?

I'd finally have an excuse to start wearing frilly dresses... But realistically, I'd just buy androgynous female clothes like dress shirts and jeans. Maybe I'd start making my own clothes, sewing is pretty fun.

Aleema wrote:The point of this thread is that games are not fun for us or acknowledge we even exist, not just that the gaming community is in a terrible state, but it doesn't help. Because frankly, repeatedly saying "citation needed" or "I don't see it" or "you're being irrationally angry" after hearing such is pretty much denial.

>"citation needed" :: Was justified
>I don't see it :: I'm not allowed to ask someone to state their reasons?
>you're being irrationally angry :: Was never said

PyTom wrote:

Auro-Cyanide wrote:"Make your own clothes. That will prove there is a market. Oh, or spend tens of thousands setting up your own shop, you have to prove there is a market."

This one is legitimate, I think.

You can't force someone who doesn't want to take a risk to take it, just because you want them to, if you're not willing to take the risk yourself. And at the same time, if you do identify a market opportunity that noone else is addressing, you'll be able to corner that market and charge whatever it will bear.

Yes, it's a solution, but it doesn't fix the underlying problem that exists in all media on how women are addressed and why, not to mention the denial of the issue. I know you consider the issue to exist, but there are a lot of people who don't and the open hostility isn't helping the issue. There are girls, especially the ones here, that are working very hard to change the situation by making the games we like. That is a step in the right direction. But we should also be able to communicate with the larger companies that we ARE a market, what kind of issues we have and what we find more engaging. We don't expect the problem to disappear overnight or to be fixed without work. What we would appreciate is a little support or at least understanding from our male counterparts. That is all. Having people deny everything we bring up makes everything that much harder and it's not something I actually expect to see in societies that are meant to see women as equals. It just makes me think something went wrong with feminism if I can't even get that basic respect from a male.

Aleema wrote:Something tells me you didn't read this thread at all. I hope papillon's head doesn't explode reading this. You've completely missed her point, and the point of the thread Auro linked to: sexy women ARE OKAY.

So in short: the only way that this is entirely avoided is if the women portrayed are unnapealing?

Aleema wrote:Also, you contradicted yourself by saying Bayonetta shouldn't be offensive to the girls, and then telling the boys that she is.

That was done on purpouse. While Bayonetta may be sexualized, her actions are totally against the general male stigma that women are weak and always need a man to protect them.

Aleema wrote:Also, it's completely fair to judge LA Noire however I want. I was uncomfortable with it, and that's legitimate. I didn't pick up the game with that knowledge, and learning it, I put it down. Others are still free to enjoy the game how they please, but I personally will not continue to.

Fine. I can understand that, though considering the time period this was taking place, it was a bit of a given.

Desu_Cake wrote:The main problem with this issue is that any attempt to discuss it quickly devolves into senseless bickering :V

It also ends with someone going "My opinion is fact, everything you argue is wrong."

HigurashiKira wrote:

Aleema wrote:Something tells me you didn't read this thread at all. I hope papillon's head doesn't explode reading this. You've completely missed her point, and the point of the thread Auro linked to: sexy women ARE OKAY.

So in short: the only way that this is entirely avoided is if the women portrayed are ugly and unnapealing?

You aren't doing that on purpose, are you? Because that would just be really, really mean.

J. Datie wrote:

HigurashiKira wrote:

Aleema wrote:Something tells me you didn't read this thread at all. I hope papillon's head doesn't explode reading this. You've completely missed her point, and the point of the thread Auro linked to: sexy women ARE OKAY.

So in short: the only way that this is entirely avoided is if the women portrayed are ugly and unnapealing?

You aren't doing that on purpose, are you? Because that would just be really, really mean.

Well, what I meant by "showcasing" is that the person is visually attractive, it dosen't have to be sexy. But considering that she said that it's what's been argued, really that was the conclusion I reached. Of course, it might be a bit too exagerated to go that far. *goes to edit*

HigurashiKira wrote:Well, what I meant by "showcasing" is that the person is visually attractive, it dosen't have to be sexy. But considering that she said that it's what's been argued, really that was the conclusion I reached. Of course, it might be a bit too exagerated to go that far. *goes to edit*

The reason Bayonetta is generally accepted by other females as a good female character is that she owns her sexuality. She isn't just walking boobs and no brain, she has a very strong personality and her sexyness is a part of that. Feminine sexuality is a part of the female gender. We like it, we like to see it, we like be a part of it. What can make us feel very uncomfortable, especially with how often it occurs in so many mediums, is when that sexuality is taken away from a female and becomes a tool for male enjoyment. When the character is no longer in control of it, when it's more important than the rest of her, that is disconcerting. And it happens all the time, everywhere. You can probably understand why women are a little worried when this is the message we are given time and time again in everyday media. It would be like judging the entirity of a man and his value to women on the size of his male genitalia. I know the idea of that makes men uncomfortable, I wonder what it would be like if that message was in the media all the time.