Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

[Fawn]

@Aleema: Goodness, that article you posted that mentioned what happened to the girl on reddit... That is truely awful. Just because she was a pretty girl... If anything, I'd like to tackle a problem like that first. Horny idiots like that think they can get away with saying appalling things because they're on the internet and "not accountable for their actions". Also saying it was her fault is no excuse, especially since there was nothing sexual about the picture whatsoever...

What do we do about these kinds of things, though? How do we insite change in a fair way?

[Auro-Cyanide]

I would like to know if there is proof that women are a less reliable market? Are we really or is it an assumption because games taking in female point of view just haven't really done before. I know research is done, but research is often biased. It is effected by what you think and this will alter what you ask, why you ask it and how you read the results. How do we know that these people think there is no market for women simply because they think there is no market for women? Maybe they are not asking the right questions or not seeing a potential market were there is one because there is a perceived view that games aren't for girls? My point is that maybe it isn't entirely facts that people are basing this opinion on. It wasn't that long ago (and this attitude still continues today) that all comics were for teenage boys and anything animated was for kids. We all know these perceptions are wrong, as is the one that games are for guys. Maybe they aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

Bioware has made 4 games now that have at least considered a female point of view and they have all been very successful with women. The fact they continued to make that content after the first game means they are profiting off it somehow (even if they do make stupid marketing decisions after that). For them to continue doing it, it means it was worth it for them as a company. So if they are profiting from it, there is no reason other people couldn't as well. You only have to look at some of the indie markets to see just how powerful a fan girl market can be. Like Aleema says, look at Justin Biebar. You get a fraction of that hysterical market and you are doing well. I do have the money to spend on games I like, I just need those games to actually be existence (I am sooooo excited for ME3).

So overall, I'm not entirely sure where the information that girls are not a good market is coming from. It doesn't make logical sense to me and the fact companies are paying attention and profiting shows me that the perception is most likely false. And yes, I would have bought that Aliastar DLC. And Zevran too.

@Counter Art,

I totally get what you mean. I studied design at university and a large part of the study was about how humans communicate. You start learning about Saussure and semiotics, Baudrillard and hyperreality, the language of rhetoric and EVERYTHING means SOMETHING. A lot of it isn't even conscious thought to most people, but it's there. Humans are very, very good at visual communication, even if we aren't directly thinking about it. Design is about knowing about this hidden language and then using it to tell people what you need to. You can't actually make people do or think something, but you can definitely manipulate the way they read a message.

I'm very pleased to hear that you thought about these types of messages when you created your game. It shows that we are very much capable of controlling the messages we send out. Which of course is one of the things we are talking about here. Game developers aren't just creating another sexy female character. That design is heavily laced with messages, both for men and women. My problem is that people aren't think about the messages that they are sending out (and if they are, then they really aren't nice people. I'm hoping it's more the former and they are just thinking 'Guys like boobs' instead of 'I'm going to objectify this female character and purposely imbed her with negative messages'). Taking moments to think about what you are doing and why should be a virtue of humanity. Even though I don't think gaming companies are purposely supporting sexism, that's the messages they are sending out. If they (and all other media for that matter) want to stop supporting negative -isms is our communities, they need to think twice about what they do and what they support. Again, this isn't about stopping ALL these messages, just stopping bombarding everyone with the same messages. Variation will always allow more room for free thinking and a more rounded society.

@Fawn,

The problem is all these issues are tied in together. A girl being sexually harassed on the internet is tied to the same ideals that are being held up by gaming companies that are not seeing women as an audience or respecting female characters. That is why this whole thing is so massive and why it's not going to be fixed just by girls making their own games. It requires an actual shift in the way society thinks. Right now, there are places girls don't belong because they are girls. We would like to change this so that all females can belong just as readily as all the males. So that girls won't be verbally or visually harassed while playing a FPS, so that girls can have female characters they can actually invest in and admire, so that girls can have some games that they can enjoy as equally as much as any guy. And in the greater scheme of things, so women can be equally respected as men and so their point of view will be acknowledged and respected just as much as a male's.

[Taosym]

And since you want to say that, as a woman, I cannot see from a male point of view, I give you with this quote:

Because of the way cultural dominance/privilege works, marginalized people are, by necessity and unavoidability, more knowledgeable about the lives of privileged people than the other way around.

It means that, I have grown up in a male-centric society where I am forced to look at everything from a male POV, and often rarely my own. A woman will often know more about men than a man may know about women. It's not fair to anyone, really.

People who are marginalized also tend to look at things from a perspective of 'what others have and I do not'. They will naturally be in the mindset of wanting to be offended, so as to have some effect over those around them in which they are not ordinarily able to. I should know this since I grew up poorer than dirt. If this statement were true, then marginalized women, who are therefor able to understand men (in most cases, neither gender understands each other AT ALL) should decry things that they find sexist to men. Because feminism should be about gender equality right? Not the subjugation of the other gender out of spite or revenge, right?

I've also noticed things are accused of being sexist, that make me look at it and scratch my head. It's much more taboo to say anything sexist to women, then it is to say the same thing to a man. Saying "all men are pigs" to other women, and no one will say "that's really sexist!" but if you said the same thing about women, you'd probably be boiled in oil.

If designing a game, where males are the target demographic is sexist. Then we should completely do away with gender identity all together! Everyone wearing the same clothes, all makeup or no makeup. There'd be no girl things or boy things. Just things. This wouldn't work because the genders are different and as people we want different things. Catering to one audience isn't sexist, it's catering. If the game began with the statement that women can't play it. Then yes, i'd agree with you that it's sexist.

[Auro-Cyanide]

If designing a game, where males are the target demographic is sexist. Then we should completely do away with gender identity all together! Everyone wearing the same clothes, all makeup or no makeup. There'd be no girl things or boy things. Just things. This wouldn't work because the genders are different and as people we want different things. Catering to one audience isn't sexist, it's catering. If the game began with the statement that women can't play it. Then yes, i'd agree with you that it's sexist.

I think the problem actually extends to quantity. We aren't talking about one game aimed at men. That isn't what we have a problem with. It's that the vast majority of games are aimed at men and carry negative messages for females. The main problem being there is hardly anyone really catering to women at all. I have no problem with a game have sexualised versions of women, just as I wouldn't have a problem with a game with sexualised versions of men. Humans, in general, are sexual creatures. We are attracted to each other, whichever way you are inclined. Swinging exclusively to one side or the other can be called sexist because you are ignoring one group for the sake of another, especially if it is at the cost of the ignored group. However, we are talking about a lot of games that ignore women and their perspective completely, and this is what worries me. If even 25% of games considered women I wouldn't be so concerned, but that is not the case. The negative messages imprinted in these games, constantly, also concerns me. A game doesn't have to stamp 'Women not wanted' on their covers to make that message clear. I think what this is about is more variation in what is created, and more thoughtfulness about the messages that are being sent out*

*Aaaaand, i talked about this a whole heap in my previous post, so I won't bore everyone saying it again ^_^'

Also, this has a point XD

[J. Datie]

They will naturally be in the mindset of wanting to be offended, so as to have some effect over those around them in which they are not ordinarily able to.

They enjoy being offended?

If this statement were true, then marginalized women, who are therefor able to understand men (in most cases, neither gender understands each other AT ALL) should decry things that they find sexist to men. Because feminism should be about gender equality right? Not the subjugation of the other gender out of spite or revenge, right?

Right. Like the last time I read something that could be considered sexist against men on this other forum and then right after a feminist told them it could be seen as sexist. Haha, just kidding. That actually happened on this forum. Small world, isn't it?

I've also noticed things are accused of being sexist, that make me look at it and scratch my head. It's much more taboo to say anything sexist to women, then it is to say the same thing to a man. Saying "all men are pigs" to other women, and no one will say "that's really sexist!" but if you said the same thing about women, you'd probably be boiled in oil.

What's your definition of "boiled in oil?" Is it receiving 1,700 upvotes on Reddit? Or are rape threats not as bad as saying "all women are pigs?"

If designing a game, where males are the target demographic is sexist.

Good thing it isn't, eh?

I know this sounds pretty bitter, but I just find it rather disturbing that 99% of the time sexism against men is brought up, it's as a counterpoint to sexism against women.

[DaFool]

This other time I was at a software shop looking for my next fix, and a young brother-sister pair came looking for their next PS3 game. That's right, the sister was actively engaged in evaluating the videogames on the shelf. It was a really heartwarming scene. So girls have no problem with 10-button dual-stick super controllers with rumblepacks (just as they would have no problem operating a Blackberry or whatever other ridiculously overcomplicated piece of tech there is out there). They just need CONTENT they can relate to use the device.

I think the days of complex hardcore games for men and simplistic casual games for women are numbered. Just like the early days of film were filled with silent porn... or the early days of print were filled with blasphemous ideas the Church wanted to have burned... we are only now experiencing the growing up of videogames as a valid medium. Just the shuffling of demographics on this site for example (and I share the sentiment of not wanting to log in an online multiplayer deathmatch and being called a 'faggot', thus story-based or tactics games are more for me.) --right now it's skewing teens and young twenties, but this is the first wave of players who wouldn't rather be playing Bingo (yeah I just dismissed the early wave of casual games lol).

About there being no market for videogames appealing to women -- well James Cameron's Titanic didn't have such a titanic box office status if it weren't for the fangirls (much to DiCaprio's dismay). And today we have children born to fathers who were the first generation of gamers -- so you bet just by that fact alone will do away with the archaic stigma of games=dangerous/unhealthy and even more appalling if you're a girl.

[Taosym]

They will naturally be in the mindset of wanting to be offended, so as to have some effect over those around them in which they are not ordinarily able to.

They enjoy being offended?

If this statement were true, then marginalized women, who are therefor able to understand men (in most cases, neither gender understands each other AT ALL) should decry things that they find sexist to men. Because feminism should be about gender equality right? Not the subjugation of the other gender out of spite or revenge, right?

Right. Like the last time I read something that could be considered sexist against men on this other forum and then right after a feminist told them it could be seen as sexist. Haha, just kidding. That actually happened on this forum. Small world, isn't it?

I've also noticed things are accused of being sexist, that make me look at it and scratch my head. It's much more taboo to say anything sexist to women, then it is to say the same thing to a man. Saying "all men are pigs" to other women, and no one will say "that's really sexist!" but if you said the same thing about women, you'd probably be boiled in oil.

What's your definition of "boiled in oil?" Is it receiving 1,700 upvotes on Reddit? Or are rape threats not as bad as saying "all women are pigs?"

If designing a game, where males are the target demographic is sexist.

Good thing it isn't, eh?

I know this sounds pretty bitter, but I just find it rather disturbing that 99% of the time sexism against men is brought up, it's as a counterpoint to sexism against women.

I don't go to Reddit, mostly because it's Reddit. Is your point that the "# upvotes = opinion of men" if so, that's insanely biased. Also, if you're going to be responding to me, please don't quote-mine my posts to pull things out of context, or to twist sentences out of their meaning by quoting only small sections of them. You are acting rather hostile to me for a reason that I can't conclude other than you see me as something that needs to be defeated. If your stance is that men cannot be offended by sexist comments, because they are sexist themselves. I don't know what to say to you, I would feel that any point I tried to make would be invalidated by your position, that all men are inherently sexist.

[Dollywitch]

I get so much flak for being a feminist. I don't know where to start in this argument, but it's not an argument that's easy to have because guys(and some girls) will deny anything at all can possibly sexism. That's what bothers me the most. Everyone is so convinced we live in a post-racist, post-sexist, post-homophobia, post-class(the most ridiculous one of all, as wealth inequality has worsened greatly since the 70s) world and don't like that idea being challenged since it means they have to think about their privilege.

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5811

You just have to look at shit like this. Gaming has a HUGE problem with sexism.

[Dollywitch]

People who are marginalized also tend to look at things from a perspective of 'what others have and I do not'. They will naturally be in the mindset of wanting to be offended, so as to have some effect over those around them in which they are not ordinarily able to. I should know this since I grew up poorer than dirt. If this statement were true, then marginalized women, who are therefor able to understand men (in most cases, neither gender understands each other AT ALL) should decry things that they find sexist to men. Because feminism should be about gender equality right? Not the subjugation of the other gender out of spite or revenge, right?

However you grew up, this is one of the most privileged remarks I've read in a long time. It's often used to demean marginalised people - they just WANT to be offended. Therefore we can disregard large chunks of what they have to say without even listening to it. It's horrific.

People REALLY need to read the Feminism 101s that are posted throughout this thread. If you don't, you shouldn't be taking part in this argument.

I've also noticed things are accused of being sexist, that make me look at it and scratch my head. It's much more taboo to say anything sexist to women, then it is to say the same thing to a man. Saying "all men are pigs" to other women, and no one will say "that's really sexist!" but if you said the same thing about women, you'd probably be boiled in oil.

Ugh, this is utter nonsense! How many threads do you get on online forums, youtube comments etc. that are NOTHING but incessant bitching about feminism? Where do you get anything like that with regards men? And how many feminists say "all men are pigs" anyway?

[J. Datie]

I don't go to Reddit, mostly because it's Reddit. Is your point that the "# upvotes = opinion of men" if so, that's insanely biased. Also, if you're going to be responding to me, please don't quote-mine my posts to pull things out of context, or to twist sentences out of their meaning by quoting only small sections of them. You are acting rather hostile to me for a reason that I can't conclude other than you see me as something that needs to be defeated. If your stance is that men cannot be offended by sexist comments, because they are sexist themselves. I don't know what to say to you, I would feel that any point I tried to make would be invalidated by your position, that all men are inherently sexist.

I don't go to Reddit either, but I don't have to. That story was in a post Aleema made a short while ago. Of course upvotes on Reddit don't represent the views of all men, but they don't need to. My point is that there are times when sexist comments are made against women that don't involve any oil boil at all. Those times are "almost always" and it's kind of terrifying.

And yes, I know I sound mean and yelly, but you need to consider what you're bringing up into what kind of topic. Bringing up that some women say "all men are pigs!" is kind of like going to a hospital, getting a flu shot, and then telling the patient with 62 gunshot wounds to stop moaning, 'cause flu shots hurt real bad, too! As that link I posted said, there's a place for discussions about sexism against men, but that place isn't this topic.

Of course I don't think men are all sexist, that would just be silly.

[PyTom]

it's not an argument that's easy to have because guys(and some girls) will deny anything at all can possibly sexism.

Isn't that a straw man argument? I don't know anyone who denies that "anything at all can possibly be sexism". I - and many other people - can take issue with specific things being sexism. Some examples, as I see them:

(1) I create a game, and refuse to sell it to women.
(2) I create a game that appeals to men, but not to women.
(3) A large number of creators make games that appeal to men but not to women.

(1) is certainly sexism, and I don't think any rational person would deny that. (The world is not full of rational people, but we can ignore the ones that aren't.) I don't think (2) is sexism - the only way for it to be would be for there for me to have an affirmative duty to produce things that appeal to a broad audience. I don't think there is that affirmative duty, so it's not sexism. (3) is (2) writ large, and so I can't see it as sexism, either. It is probably a market failure, but there's a big difference between market failure and sexism.

Now, it's possible to define sexism to include (2) and/or (3) - but I'd have trouble buying that definition, because I don't consider them wrong. You can try to convince me that they're wrong, and that's a conversation that's worth having - and one that's worth having from both sides, since it may be that you are the one mistaken. But if you claim as sexism things that aren't wrong, then I can conclude that either sexism is not wrong, or that your definition of it is unreliable.

I tried to read the Feminism 101 web page. It called me a bigot. An appeal to its authority is mistaken.

[Dollywitch]

Where did the Feminism 101 page call you a bigot? It's also pretty poor form to just take offense to that and not re-assess your viewpoint according to the other arguments it provides. Saying it calls you a bigot is a vast oversimplification of what it actually says. What's important is why it called you a bigot, and that you own up to the possibility that *everyone* can act with some degree of bigotry.

It's not an "appeal to authority". It clarifies a lot of mistaken issues people have about feminism and takes down misconceptions with good arguments so we don't have to endlessly replace them.

Your options are also severely limited as sexism isn't like that. "I create a game with sexist undertones" is not an option, and that can be the real reason for "Market Failure" so many people ignore.

[Taosym]

I don't go to Reddit, mostly because it's Reddit. Is your point that the "# upvotes = opinion of men" if so, that's insanely biased. Also, if you're going to be responding to me, please don't quote-mine my posts to pull things out of context, or to twist sentences out of their meaning by quoting only small sections of them. You are acting rather hostile to me for a reason that I can't conclude other than you see me as something that needs to be defeated. If your stance is that men cannot be offended by sexist comments, because they are sexist themselves. I don't know what to say to you, I would feel that any point I tried to make would be invalidated by your position, that all men are inherently sexist.

I don't go to Reddit either, but I don't have to. That story was in a post Aleema made a short while ago. Of course upvotes on Reddit don't represent the views of all men, but they don't need to. My point is that there are times when sexist comments are made against women that don't involve any oil boil at all. Those times are "almost always" and it's kind of terrifying.

And yes, I know I sound mean and yelly, but you need to consider what you're bringing up into what kind of topic. Bringing up that some women say "all men are pigs!" is kind of like going to a hospital, getting a flu shot, and then telling the patient with 62 gunshot wounds to stop moaning, 'cause flu shots hurt real bad, too! As that link I posted said, there's a place for discussions about sexism against men, but that place isn't this topic.

Of course I don't think men are all sexist, that would just be silly.

It's my opinion that human equality in general is something more meaningful than simply just female equality. That does not mean that females shouldn't be equal. It's that everyone should be equal. I take issue with men who say racist, or sexist things just as much as a women who says "Men are dogs, it's okay to say that because i've been oppressed and they need to be oppressed too". There are men out there who are sexist, and they state their opinions, and you can tell the venom they have when they say it. However I've heard the same thing from women who have become hateful over their mistreatment. Some men, probably have never been sexist their entire lives. Are they now sexist until proven innocent? Do they deserve scorn until they've proven they are not sexist? It all needs to stop, all of it, period. Stating sexist or racist things against anyone only justifies. That's my point. If one guy says something really sexist, then that guy's probably really sexist, and he deserves to be told off. But no one needs to jump into generalities and state that all women are this, or all women are that.

To get more on topic, I've never encountered the sexist statements in VN's that originally sparked this discussion. My only opinion is that i'd be uncomfortable reading something like that and i'm sure it'd ruin mine and a lot of people's play experience to read it. Objectively more and more women are playing VNs the more the stigma associated with "otaku behavior" goes away. And financially it doesn't make sense to alienate half the world.

[Dollywitch]

It's my opinion that human equality in general is something more meaningful than simply just female equality. That does not mean that females shouldn't be equal. It's that everyone should be equal.

Feminists are for equality. You could just as easily say "equality in general something more meaningful than simply just gay equality".

[Taosym]

It's my opinion that human equality in general is something more meaningful than simply just female equality. That does not mean that females shouldn't be equal. It's that everyone should be equal.

Feminists are for equality. You could just as easily say "equality in general something more meaningful than simply just gay equality".

A person who believes in human equality is an egalitarian. When you ask someone on the street what a "feminist" is, the most common answer will likely be "belief in the equality of females in our society". And started as a movement because women weren't equal in society. But that's speaking in very, very general terms. However not every human has the same social standing in our society. People aren't color blind or gender blind. I feel that personally the need for the feminist movement should be expanded into egalitarianism, and accept people of all races, genders, orientations, etc and religions.