Ren'Py's Public Image

[mikey]

This is interesting. Because I actually like the Eileen demo as it is.

Okay, maybe if I had a free wish, it would be an "Effects library"where you click on an effect name and that effect is demonstrated to you. I'd probably throw in all known Ren'Py effects, even the custom made ones, especially from the Utsukushii series.

Apart from that (besides *really* liking the symbolic idea of jungle girl Eileen with a PySnake), I don't really think the demo is that bad. It's simple and it's no-nonsense. I love the way that Eileen demonstrates the things.

OTOH I support the idea of "bundled" peek-at-my-source tech demos so people can learn. These just may be the small projects that can jumpstart people who haven't had the courage to commit themselves to a project.

[PyTom]

What I'm thinking is that the new Ren'Py demo (demo3) would feature snippets from a number of Ren'Py games. This would demonstrate Ren'Py from the player and reasonably simple game creator's perspective. (Which is good, since I think alot of the complexity of the current demo (demo2) is not necessary, and scares away some potential creators.)

The current demo (demo2) will probably continue to ship, with upgraded art, as part of the standard Ren'Py distribution.

It would be nice if somebody (mugenjoncel, maybe, unless he wants to focus on making his game) would come up with character art and backgrounds for the DSE game. I'd like to improve that some as well, perhaps moving it into demo3.

I like the idea of allowing multiple people to contribute icon sets and banners. Those can be posted on the website. If I have a pool of icons, I'll switch between them once in a while. If we post banners/sigbars/whatever up to the website, then people can pick the ones they want.

For Eileen, I'd ask the character art be MIT licensed, so it can be distributed under the same terms as the rest of Ren'Py. I'd be less picky about the license for art used in demo3... provided it can be distributed (for free or commercially), I don't care about allowing derivative works.

[Jake]

For Eileen, I'd ask the character art be MIT licensed, so it can be distributed under the same terms as the rest of Ren'Py. I'd be less picky about the license for art used in demo3... provided it can be distributed (for free or commercially), I don't care about allowing derivative works.

As I understand it, the MIT license is basically the same as the BSD license now that the infamous advertising clause in the latter has been removed, right?

I just ask 'cause I'm pretty sure that I remember reading some convincing commentary (although I can't unfortunately remember any of the details) that suggested that the BSD license wasn't at all appropriate for licensing anything other than software, in the same way that the CC licenses are fine for images and prose but aren't really appropriate for software or source code. The recommendation, I'm fairly sure, was to use BSD (or whatever your software license of choice) for the software part and an equivalent CC license for any accompanying resources...

[PyTom]

The MIT license is similar to a no-advertising BSD in intent, but the wording is a little different. It's about the most liberal license you can have without being public-domain.

I'd think that image files distributed as part of software are part of that software.

CC would also be okay, but as part of the purpose of demo3 is to provide a quick source for images for people playing around with Ren'Py, I wouldn't want anything more restrictive then CC-Attribution.

[mikey]

(Which is good, since I think alot of the complexity of the current demo (demo2) is not necessary, and scares away some potential creators.)

Seriously? IMO it's a great showcase of all the effects and it's not really scary, more like inspiring.

But I agree that maybe a "sample game" that is very simple would be a good idea. Maybe even a "template game" and a template "kinetic novel" would be nice. This way the user could start with editing a template KN before moving on to a multichoice VN.

Also, IMO there's a LOT of comments in the demo game. This is fine, but the template games could be as simple as possible, as not to overload the creator. In the demo, especially at the beginning, there are a lot of paragraphs of comments that (unless you have scite), clutter things.

And I would probably also promote Scite more. It's really helpful.

[DaFool]

I think all thats needed is one or several kick-ass 'killer' applications that utilize a either a few of Ren'py's capabilities, or even just one capability but to the max.

Very well-made games would contribute to Ren'py's success. Now I'm not saying that Nanoremo or the one-month-deadline contest is a bad idea, but the focus should be on producing a very impressive game, instead of just a game. Of course this means that no one should bite off more than they can chew, but if this means that the game will be a fantastic 5 minutes instead of an adequate 20 minutes, then so be it.

I have seriously started on something short and sweet and hopefully kickass which I hope to release before the end of the month (when Curious Factory will meet with Buredo executives to discuss the state of Blade Engine and OEL VNs). I really hope they can be rattled by an unexpected Ren'py hit, then they'd get off their butts and put more support into Blade Engine. Seriously, Japanese Visual Novels have been around for a long time, and releasing a less-then-perfect initial version is not really excusable. Then that will convince them to speed up having linux/mac support, and hopefully animated layers and embedded movies too. In the meantime, people will be spreading word about this awesome 'holy shit' kinda app that not-so-discreetly proclaims:

"POWERED BY REN'PY"

[mikey]

Very well-made games would contribute to Ren'py's success. Now I'm not saying that Nanoremo or the one-month-deadline contest is a bad idea, but the focus should be on producing a very impressive game, instead of just a game. Of course this means that no one should bite off more than they can chew, but if this means that the game will be a fantastic 5 minutes instead of an adequate 20 minutes, then so be it.

NaNoRenO's aim was to jumpstart creators, regardless of the engine. More of a motivation thing than competition.

Anyway, the point is there. Drop-dead beautiful games would surely make an impact. But currently, there hasn't yet been a constellation of individuals who could make not only the art, but also the music, story and most of all, bring it to an end. IMO the best is currently G!MB.

So yes, the talent is there, but bringing it together... is still a bit of a problem.

OTOH it has nothing to do with the fact that the makers are AFAIK all very proud of their work.

[DaFool]

I am not dismissing any of the OEL VNs so far. In fact so far I have been impressed by most, especially in the story and innovation departments. Seriously, some have even beaten Wind, in my opinion. Or maybe because they were short and sweet. I've played around 7 and I plan to play all 28~32 OEL VNs that have been produced to date. (And True Tears demo being released as well as the usual anime fansubs no doubt I have a serious backlog)

No doubt everyone is very proud of what they've got accomplished. Then its only a matter of time and more practice that the talent will be honed. The only thing is that with the Blade Engine featured in slashdot, most people will go to Curious Factory. Naturally, then, more people = more latent talent. It's just a matter of statistics.

[mikey]

Then its only a matter of time and more practice that the talent will be honed.

I think so too. The most important skill is to establish a productive working style. Often it's potential that's seen, but a lot of the people here have (I think very wisely) chosen the "finish first, get better later" option. I try to keep tabs on the English projects here. The creativity and ideas are definitely there.

I agree though, that having a sort of cool flagship title would probably make things easier for Ren'Py. Utsukushii has a lot of OMG potential with all its effects.

After all, games are what Ren'Py was made for, so games should speak for it as well.

[Jake]

(Which is good, since I think alot of the complexity of the current demo (demo2) is not necessary, and scares away some potential creators.)

Seriously? IMO it's a great showcase of all the effects and it's not really scary, more like inspiring.

The impression I get is that it's exactly that to people who already have a sound technical/programming basis from which to work, or are seriously adventurous individuals. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who could quite happily put in the effort to - say - draw volumes of manga, write epic plots and scripts and/or draw hundreds of sprites and BGs who are seriously wary of programming - it's often viewed as some kind of highly technical black art that only a select few can understand. I think that all the fantastic things that it showcases could serve to make people think it's more complicated than it really is... not because they're fantastic, but because they're all enumerated separately and made a big thing of. Which seems perverse, but so is the attitude that simple Ren'Py scripting is beyond the reach of mere mortals.

Maybe even a "template game" and a template "kinetic novel" would be nice. This way the user could start with editing a template KN before moving on to a multichoice VN.

Now this really does strike me as a good idea. The DSE stuff included currently is a little bit like this, but in my opinion still could do with an external document that walks through setting it up...

[ShiraiJunichi]

I think all thats needed is one or several kick-ass 'killer' applications that utilize a either a few of Ren'py's capabilities, or even just one capability but to the max.

I really think this is the way to go. And I think scenes from already released games just won't cut. Previously I sait that the current demo doesn't justly demostrate Ren'Py's power. And I think that's true for most games that have been released. I think the primary focus of most game-makers here is to make a game with a good story. While this is an excellent focus when you have a final game in mind, it's not soo great for creating one minute clips. If you cut out a one minute clip from a final game, then you lose the whole story- which the clip relied on for it's effectiveness. So I suggest creating original clips that are built with the primary purpose of showing off ren'py. I'm sure several game-makers, including myself, would be willing to take a little time off from their current project to build a two minute segment that can justly display Ren'Py's power. And if we put them all together in some logical fashion, like with dream sequences or something, then we could all reuse the same character art.

[mikey]

It's a reasonable proposal.

I was going to say that you shouldn't expect (actually, not even encourage) gamemakers to make good-looking games so that you can advertise an engine. The last thing you want is to have that killer game discouraging potential new makers who don't feel that lower-spec games will be accepted.

But, showcase apps like that, for instance Utsukushii Effects, they could work. And as you said, they would be designed for that one purpose and hopefully inspire and not discourage.

[DaFool]

But I agree that maybe a "sample game" that is very simple would be a good idea. Maybe even a "template game" and a template "kinetic novel" would be nice. This way the user could start with editing a template KN before moving on to a multichoice VN.

Ah, we see where the Blade Engine did right! By providing a very simple demo each with its own tutorial reference.

If you cut out a one minute clip from a final game, then you lose the whole story- which the clip relied on for it's effectiveness. So I suggest creating original clips that are built with the primary purpose of showing off ren'py. I'm sure several game-makers, including myself, would be willing to take a little time off from their current project to build a two minute segment that can justly display Ren'Py's power.

Somehow it may feel like a chore for a veteran gamemaker to take time off just to pull up a simple tutorial-type game. However, once we have a set of such tutorials instead of one complete but complicated tutorial like we have now, then it will be easy to walk people through basic steps starting from simple to advanced level. Mind you, I work with artists at an animation studio, and while no one can beat them in Photoshop, sometimes they get stuck with simple computer problems, so I would think they may be the type to be scared off by the whole programming feel.

I was going to say that you shouldn't expect (actually, not even encourage) gamemakers to make good-looking games so that you can advertise an engine. The last thing you want is to have that killer game discouraging potential new makers who don't feel that lower-spec games will be accepted.

That's why a series of tutorials from simple to complex might do this best. The more advanced tutorials can very well lead to an understanding of how that 'killer app game' was made once we have those.

For my part, since I am new to Ren'py, I am learning as I am going along. My first project is a 5-minute Kinetic Poem (KP...remember, you heard the name from DaFool first ) and its main features that can be made tutorial-friendly are embedded movies and animated layers. I am doing this as a labor of love, so I hope that if this 'love' can be found on a simple short tutorial, it should hope to inspire as well.

[lordcloudx]

actually, mikey, you might have a point about a killer-game killing enthusiasm (okay i'm paraphrasing so sue me my sis can defend me in a court of law ).

I honestly would never have brought any of my kinetic novels into this place if Pytom hadn't found them first coz I didn't think they were good enough to be accepted among the ones already completed.

but if somebody did make a killer-demo, we'd all surely enjoy it hehe

[DaFool]

I think PyTom and others attending Otakon and the Blade Engine and Shira-oka panels, can learn all the publicity stunts they use. Because I now have no doubt as far as technical potential, Ren'py is it. It's just that the community seems more technical-based (especially with creators into RPG and other types of games) thats impeding the interest of the artistic-based (like mentioned earlier, those who create long comics and prose)

By the way, sorry but what does DSE game stand for?