Hey there, newbie poking his head out of the nest

[themocaw]

So I got it into my head that it would be fun to create a visual novel, and decided to shop around for different engines. I tried out Flash because I already owned it: too complicated. I tried out ADRIFT, but an interactive fiction wasn't what I was looking for. I tried BLADE engine, and it did most of what I wanted it to do, but I got turned off by the rather obfuscated code, the fact that it required a new script file every time the story branched, and the fact that it costs $30 to buy the pro version that compiles the code for easy distribution.

Anyway, I gave Ren'Py another shot, because a new version had been released, and I like what I see. The launcher is clean and useful, the fact that it has a built-in editor (meaning I don't need to use notepad for everything) is also nice, and the quick-start tools like choosing a color template and the built-in error checker are also great. I wish that you could edit your scripts on the fly like in BLADE, where rollback automatically reloads the script from that point, but I'll deal. I'm having a lot of fun playing with the programming language, mostly using CG rips from various games like Utawarerumono and Fate Stay/Night. . . (glances around and winces). Okay, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that, but it's easier than doing all the art myself while my artist catches up.

My starting project is going to be relatively simple: I have grandiose notions of building the next Fate Stay/Night or Da Capo eventually (hah!), but I want to start off with a fairly simple storyline: a wimpy guy, his tsundere female friend, and a bet to get a girlfriend/lose one's virginity (depending on how deep I want to go into the sordid world of H) before the Big Dance.

Anyway, here are my questions, although I have a feeling most of the answers will be "lurk moar" or "RTFM."

1. In certain games like Tokimeki Check-In, X-Change, and other healthy, family-friendly games of that manner, the text window includes a series of buttons above the text that allow the player to rollback, skip forward, autoskip, and access the menu. Is there a way to implement that in Ren'Py?

2. I'd like to use pre-made resources when I can to try and lessen the burden on my artist: she already has an art job and several commissions to boot, and I'm grateful she agreed to take this project on too. But in terms of things like backgrounds, do you know if there's anything like ALICE, with backgrounds that can be used free of charge?

3. Any vital words of advice for actually completing the game? I know that's the focus, completing a game rather than going for one that's too big and never wrapping up, but any advice on how to accomplish that?

[Jake]

I wish that you could edit your scripts on the fly like in BLADE, where rollback automatically reloads the script from that point, but I'll deal.

As it goes, you can - Shift-R from within Ren'Py, IIRC.

[rocket]

1. In certain games like Tokimeki Check-In, X-Change, and other healthy, family-friendly games of that manner, the text window includes a series of buttons above the text that allow the player to rollback, skip forward, autoskip, and access the menu. Is there a way to implement that in Ren'Py?

2. I'd like to use pre-made resources when I can to try and lessen the burden on my artist: she already has an art job and several commissions to boot, and I'm grateful she agreed to take this project on too. But in terms of things like backgrounds, do you know if there's anything like ALICE, with backgrounds that can be used free of charge?

3. Any vital words of advice for actually completing the game? I know that's the focus, completing a game rather than going for one that's too big and never wrapping up, but any advice on how to accomplish that?

1. See Py'Tom below.

2. Virtual dollhouse to go with virtual dolls? I haven't heard of that. However you might try the sources listed in the resources page:
http://renpy.org/wiki/community/Resource_Links

3. Planning and accurate tracking, and hard work are the key to any project (oh, yeah and guts too!). Be sure you make a project plan which lists everything you need to do so you can check it off as you do it. Also you can use it to track how much time you spent doing it so that you begin to get a picture for what your remaining workload looks like and if you should scale back your project (you should). Keep it simple. Design to your medium and skill level - try and tell a story that will be effective with what you know you can do rather than what you think you can learn. 'Better' is not just the enemy of 'good enough', it's also the enemy of 'done'. The dirty secret of profession creative work is that it's never as good as the creators *could* have made it - there are evil project managers who keep them moving onto the next bit and coincidentally make sure that something gets done.

Also, iterate. Finish it roughly, then go back and add polish. Of course you may decide you don't want to go back and add polish after it's finished in which case you will have something finished instead of something half done. (^_^)

[PyTom]

Anyway, I gave Ren'Py another shot, because a new version had been released, and I like what I see. The launcher is clean and useful, the fact that it has a built-in editor (meaning I don't need to use notepad for everything) is also nice, and the quick-start tools like choosing a color template and the built-in error checker are also great. I wish that you could edit your scripts on the fly like in BLADE, where rollback automatically reloads the script from that point, but I'll deal.

Edit the script, save it, and then hit shift+R. It should pick up your changes... you may need to roll back a little before where your changes occured.

Anyway, here are my questions, although I have a feeling most of the answers will be "lurk moar" or "RTFM."

We don't answer questions that way. At the very least, we'll say RTM, and point you to the right page in the manual.

1. In certain games like Tokimeki Check-In, X-Change, and other healthy, family-friendly games of that manner, the text window includes a series of buttons above the text that allow the player to rollback, skip forward, autoskip, and access the menu. Is there a way to implement that in Ren'Py?

Yes, there is. Ren'Py supports overlays, which let you put an arbitrary set of buttons or imagebuttons up on the screen. Check out http://www.renpy.org/wiki/renpy/doc/coo ... _Game_Menu , and realize this is just an example of what can be done.

2. I'd like to use pre-made resources when I can to try and lessen the burden on my artist: she already has an art job and several commissions to boot, and I'm grateful she agreed to take this project on too. But in terms of things like backgrounds, do you know if there's anything like ALICE, with backgrounds that can be used free of charge?

http://www.renpy.org/wiki/community/Resource_Links

has something of a list. dlsite also has a few packs of backgrounds, that, while not free, are cheap ($10 or so).

3. Any vital words of advice for actually completing the game? I know that's the focus, completing a game rather than going for one that's too big and never wrapping up, but any advice on how to accomplish that?

Well, the usual advice is to keep it simple... I agree with that, and suggest one more thing: be sure you believe in the story you're telling. Making a game is hard, and it's the story that carries you through the hard parts.

Welcome!

[DaFool]

My starting project is going to be relatively simple: I have grandiose notions of building the next Fate Stay/Night or Da Capo eventually (hah!), but I want to start off with a fairly simple storyline:

3. Any vital words of advice for actually completing the game? I know that's the focus, completing a game rather than going for one that's too big and never wrapping up, but any advice on how to accomplish that?

Welcome to the forums!

Rather than beat about the bush, I'll go directly to the point. Aiming to be the next TYPE-MOON or Ryukishi07 is great, but first you will need to ask the question: Can I write a novel?

Yes, a novel. Can one write 80,000 words, 120,000 words, 500,000 words?
You are the sole writer.

And even if you make something that long and epic, there is no guarantee you'd become famous for it. Gakuen Redux is the longest Ren'Py game at 120K words. It is excellent writing, but appreciated by only a few people among the myriad of VN players, both english and japanese.

Okay, so maybe we can have a team of writers... but still, I recall a certain project that uses contributions of multiple writers, and after many months, they only had about 11,000 words.

I started with something simple, knowing that 20,000 words ~ 1 hour of reading.

Now, aside from the writing, the graphics and music must increase to match, and believe me, they grow exponentially. If you're not careful, double the writing and you'd need four times the resources... unless you actively become minimalist.

I am basing work estimates based on the detailed log I kept on my first project:

(5x2(day/night)=10 BGs) + 6 sprites + ~6 tracks + 23,000 words = ~ 2 months (working on the project daily and all weekend long).

Thus I estimated that my next project at 36,000-45,000 words but with almost twice the assetts -- using the same techniques would be quadruple the effort or 8 months working daily. So I had to rethink and plan more cost-saving measures (to think that that first project already used a lot of shortcuts already).

My current goal is just to reach a 'Simple 2000' (or maybe an even more modest goal, a 'Simple 800') level of proficiency -- which is just pretty much a two-hour budget eroge. I realize it will take a hell of a long time to do that if I rely on myself to produce all the HCGs.
My goal of that 'professional epic eroge' with 5+ girls and multiple hours of gameplay is still far, far away.

You can accomplish more by collaborating with an artist. See Elven Relations -- I think by far it's the Ren'Py game with the most number of graphical resources... and all done within the space of a month by a published mangaka. But even that game cut costs by using 3DCG and photographic backgrounds.

Backgrounds are very, very expensive to produce, timewise. You might want to devise a room-system where you can constrain your story... just like the studio sitcoms, have your characters run around within your limited number of locations, and write or work around that fact.

Anyway, I've been rambling on and on... come to think of it, you will notice that there are a few people who have had multiple games under their belts... maybe they are all not the most impressive games, but they are all still complete games and a feat nonetheless. Maybe you can learn a thing or two about the techniques they used on the games.

Also, remember, there is still the possibility that after spending so much time and effort to produce that super-polished professional-looking epic game, someone else could come up with a quickie using off-the-shelf resources and still get more praise for his work.

In the end, it's the execution that matters, and the heart of the author that's put into it.

[themocaw]

Wow, thanks, guys I didn't expect all this many responses in such a short period of time.

I'll check out the links and tutorials you gave me for questions 1 and 2. As for question 3: Yes, I know I'm being silly, that it's an extremely ambitious goal, especially since most of my stories nowadays range in the 30-40 page short story range, which is about 1/10 of what I'd need for a full-length novel. That's fine.

I am collaborating with an artist, and the level of artwork really depends on their schedule, which is why I want to cut back on their work as much as possible. Character art, I'll need from them. Background art, I'd like to cut out that step for them as much as possible. Events will be the big variable: I think I can tell the story with a minimum of event scenes, or with more depending on their time: that's part of the "Polish" step, basically.

Finally, the question of keeping motivated was a real concern to me given the number of projects of other kinds I've had to abandon, which was why we decided to keep this project modest: one main female lead, one set storyline, no dating simulation, just a branching storyline with, perhaps, point-tracking of hidden Love, Wimp, and Jerk statistics.

Here is my current plan of action.

1. Find a game engine/scripting language to use: COMPLETE (Ren'Py seems like the best choice).

2. Determine basic plot and theme: COMPLETE (One female love interest, one male hero, one male rival. Plotline: Tsundere female tries to get the wimpy male hero to quit being such a wuss, and in the process, the male hero finds out why she's such a bitter, angry person in the first place. Theme: "Nice Guys Don't Have To Be Wimps" - constantly being a self-sacrificing martyr will result in Bad End, but being a jerk will also result in Bad End. Path to victory is asserting oneself in a decent manner.)

3. Determine and prioritize resources: IN PROGRESS So far, I think I'll need:
Literary Resources (Me): Story Outline, Plot Tree, Rough Synopsis, Script
Visual Resources (My Artist): Character Art, Background Art*, Event Art
* I may be able to take this off their plate if I can find a set of stock backgrounds.
Audio Resources: Music and SFX (No One: this is a third priority for the polish stage.)
Go To Hell Plan: If things start going bad, first priority is literary: without a story, there's no game. If needs be, I can use my own sub-par art instead. Music and SFX, although nice, are icing on the cake, and I can leave that as a third priority.

4. Execute. (TO DO)

5. Test and Debug (TO DO)

6. Release. (TO DO)

Scope of Game: Single Female Lead, multiple endings. Basic plot has five sections: Introduction, A Quest to Become Manly, Her Past, Your Rival, The Big Night. Plot branches within each section, but regroups at the end of each section and continues from there. Point tracking determines what the end result will be. Estimated playtime for one playthrough, beginning to end: 1 hour.

Within the game, the main priority is the main plot leading towards Good End: if all else fails, I'll cut out the secondary branches and make it a single-path kinetic novel. Focus is on storytelling, not on game play.

Anyway, that's enough tl:dr, I've got my work cut out for me, looks like.