[MVN] Problem: Waiting Time

[eyerouge]

The Waiting Time Problem

It has been suggested, correctly, that waiting time in a Multiplayer Visual Novel will pose a problem since people read in different speed and also take different amount of time when the make selections. This would create time for one of the players where she'd do nothing and find the game boring.

This thread is dedicated to this problem and this problem only, and particularly the suggested solutions to it and a discussion about them. Whenever somebody expresses a new objection or suggested solution, I'll update this first post, so that it works like a summarized faq/index of what follows in here.

Suggested problems & solutions:

Mini-games:
Different types of related "mini-games" for the waiting player.

Problem: If the visual novel is interesting, I don't want to interrupt it to play a mini-game while waiting.
Problem: If the mini-game is too interesting, the player will ignore the visual novel and just play the mini-game instead.
Problem: This will end up drastically changing the focus of your project into a game with little bits of interactive story in between it. And then people might complain that the minigames aren't multiplayer

Solution: It would all depend on what the author makes of the mini-games and how integrated they are with the main story. This doesn't have to be a problem at all, but could be, if the author does a lousy job,

Extra Fiction:
In-game and related newspapers, books, etc that the waiting player can read.

Problem: New Lagtime is created.
Solution: Signal to the player that is reading the extra fiction when the other player is done. Continue the book from the same line next time he enters the extra fiction.

Problem: Some players will feel compelled to read all of the extra material as soon as they encounter it, thereby creating an even bigger waiting problem for the other player.

Problem: If the extra content is not compelling, the user will be bored and annoyed by the prospect of reading it.


Injected Story Material:
Have some kind of measure of how fast a player reads, compare values between the two, and inject extra word and story material in the main game for the faster player.

Problem: It is NOT possible to generate good content of arbitrary length to be inserted at arbitrary locations.
The player's experience WILL be harmed by either the injection of useless filler or the removal of useful description.

Solution: It is, but it would be hard and it would probably be rare cases it would work in.


Voice:
Problem: Many players would still want to play without voice or skip ahead of the voice acting.
Problem: Most authors wouldn't have the resources or the will to get voice added.

Solution: This goes for both problems listed - if voice is a solution or not really depends on if the players accept/like the voice and doesn't wish to skip ahead. If they do, then it's a really nice solution for that category of players & authors.


Immediate choices:
When a character senses that a decision is coming up, immediately show all options on the screen. The most obvious choice is initially highlighted. The story does not pause. The player can click on any option at any time, causing that option (and only that option) to be highlighted. When the character reaches the decision point, he takes action based on the currently highlighted option. Player can highlight another choice while he plays, and text and other choices can also depend on what's highlighted.

Fixed Reading Speed Adjusted to Reading Skills:
Problem: Doesn't really solve anything since the faster player would still have to wait and the slower player could even miss out on text & feel stressed out.

[Wintermoon]

Proposed solution to the original problem: show the visual novel at a fixed rate. Use animation, music or voice acting to set the pace.

Mini-games:
Different types of related "mini-games" for the waiting player.

Problem: if the visual novel is interesting, I don't want to interrupt it to play a mini-game while waiting.
Problem: if the mini-game is too interesting, the player will ignore the visual novel and just play the mini-game instead.

Basically this attempts to solve the problem by giving the player a way to waste time. Well, chances are the player already has a way to waste time. Wasting time isn't the problem. The problem is that the player wants to proactively do something they enjoy (i.e. read a visual novel) instead of having their time wasted.

Extra Fiction:
In-game and related newspapers, books, etc that the waiting player can read.

Problem: some players will feel compelled to read all of the extra material as soon as they encounter it, thereby creating an even bigger waiting problem for the other player.

[papillon]

Okay, trying to address just the issue at hand.

Injected Story Material:

Big huge no. I cannot adequately express the amount of 'no' here without either writing a thousand pages of documentation or risking you insisting that it's not that hard really, but I'll try to sum up:

It is NOT possible to generate good content of arbitrary length to be inserted at arbitrary locations.
The player's experience WILL be harmed by either the injection of useless filler or the removal of useful description.

Extra Fiction

Also a no. If the extra content is compelling, the user will be distracted by it and resent being dragged back into the original game just because the slower player is ready now. If the extra content is not compelling, the user will be bored and annoyed by the prospect of reading it.

Minigames

This is potentially possible, although you are once again limiting the number of people willing and able to create this sort of MVN, since most VN writers are not up for writing minigames. The reason this has potential is that if you design a sort of minigame that consists of fairly short rounds/levels/whatever, then the player will always have time to complete the current level before checking to see if they need to do anything in the story side of the game again. They will not have to be "dragged away" from their game.

Of course, this will end up drastically changing the focus of your project into a game with little bits of interactive story in between it. And then people might complain that the minigames aren't multiplayer.

[Hyperguy]

A large part of VNs is interacting with NPCs, so allowing the waiting player to interact with an NPC or environment in a way that doesn't affect the story might work.

Also, if the players were in two different areas they wouldn't have to wait on each other at all, and it'd be possible for the other player to only affect the options they have, eliminating wait time completely.

Like for example, how in Resident Evil 2 what you do in Leon's story mode will affect Claire's on the second playthrough, like for example if certain routes were taken they're either inaccessible or open up completely new areas after they've been run through.

Another method would be for players to register their reading speed before the game is started, and have the game play through the dialogue on automode and allow players to backtrack through any text they missed.

Or to include voice work also. Or better yet, to have a timer for decisions. That might make the VN have more of an arcadey feel but would reduce waiting time to a minimum.

Of course, these are all suggestions.

[chronoluminaire]

This, to me, is the biggest flaw regarding multiplayer VNs. Basically, if I'm having to wait for the other player:

Either (a) what's on-screen is a break from the story style of the rest of the VN, which is an immensely bad idea. Breaking user concentration or immersion, breaking the mood, distracting from the conversation or the event they were in: this is a fundamentally bad thing, and would really put me off. This includes mini-games, and any content that sits available for reading at any point like newspapers or whatever. If I'm in the middle of a tense conversation with someone, I really, really don't want to pick up a newspaper while I wait for them to reply.

Or (b) what's on-screen is continuing the same content as the rest of the VN. This is better, but very tricky to do well. Fundamentally, you'd have to have some "essential" text, that's shown whether or not the other player is ready, and some "filler" text, that only gets shown when waiting for the other player. And the problem is that either the "filler" is boring, in which case I don't want to waste time reading it, or it's interesting, in which case I want to be able to read it even if the other player's reading faster than me.

(And to Hyperguy: Fixed reading speed is a REALLY, REALLY BAD idea. One of the single biggest things that drives me away from VNs is when I can't click through text as soon as I've read it. 90% of the time, I want to read the next line as soon as I've read this one, and any delay is frustrating; 10% of the time, I want to mull over what's just been said, or take some time to appreciate the atmosphere or a CG, or listen to the voice acting. Having either of these forced on me when I want to do the other is very frustrating. Fixed reading speed was the reason I never got anywhere with the Hourglass of Summer DVD game, even though I loved the story and characters.)

[eyerouge]

Minigames

Basically this attempts to solve the problem by giving the player a way to waste time. Well, chances are the player already has a way to waste time. Wasting time isn't the problem. The problem is that the player wants to proactively do something they enjoy (i.e. read a visual novel) instead of having their time wasted.

The goal is actually to keep the player interested in the MVN and to prevent her from experiencing dullness due to waiting time or other irritation due to waiting time. To see to it that the player continues to play and doesn't find it annoying to wait. The only way this seems possible is to keep the player occupied with something within the game.

Problem: if the visual novel is interesting, I don't want to interrupt it to play a mini-game while waiting.

Your first problem isn't really a problem: It's not about if you as an author want to interrupt the MVN or if you as a player want to get interrupted in the story. The interruption is a fact and it is assumed that it is already here since the interruption is actually the waiting time, the actual problem that we're discussing. With other words, you can't ever play a MVN without some kind of so-called interruption due to the waiting times. Second, if it's considered to be an interruption or not would depend on the solution the author used. The tricky part here and the goal is to make it a working part of the MVN, with other words, to do our best to not let the player experience it as an interruption.

Problem: if the mini-game is too interesting, the player will ignore the visual novel and just play the mini-game instead.

Could be, yes. However, imagine a really bad story single player VN with astonishing graphics or soundtrack. Now, if the graphics or soundtrack is too interesting and the text sucks, the player could ignore all the text and just click to look at the pictures, or shut of his screen and listen to the music. It's the same comparison as you do: It takes an element of the VN and points out that the player might like it more than the main story. This doesn't tell us much about anything, if Iäm not mistaken, because it would be an issue not with the suggested solutions but one of how the author implements them. Meaning, mini games could work in all cases the story wasn't that bad that the mini-games brought way more joy than the story.


Extra Fiction

Problem: some players will feel compelled to read all of the extra material as soon as they encounter it, thereby creating an even bigger waiting problem for the other player.

All depends on the author as well as on the player: If you write an engaging main story then surely people won't rather read the character biographies etc instead of playing with the people they read about.

That, and the pure rationality of the player that should actually be obvious for the player - "If I read all the fiction now and at the same time ignore the fact that I know that the other player is waiting for me, how will the other player treat me in return, and what would I do when there is no more extra fiction for me to read while I wait?" It seems as an irrational thing to do, an an unfair one as well towards the other player.

Also a no. If the extra content is compelling, the user will be distracted by it and resent being dragged back into the original game just because the slower player is ready now. If the extra content is not compelling, the user will be bored and annoyed by the prospect of reading it.

1. Compelling content doesn't have to distract a user. It could be well integrated into the rest of the story.

2. In order to read the extra content it doesn't have to be "compelling" at all. Users would select if they read the extra fiction or not, and also what sections in it they read if they do.

3. Fascinating/compelling extra fiction must not be a fact for the extra fiction idea to work: It's sufficient with fiction that is interesting enough to be read.

4. If you feel you don't want to be dragged back into the original game then the author has done a lousy job or that genre is wrong for you. Also, let's not forget number 1, that you don't have to feel they are two separate things to begin with. If not, the border between real game and extra fiction becomes blurry and the player wouldn't resent crossing it.

Injected Story Material

This seems like a hard one. It's theoretically possible and I believe there could be some rare case where it worked, but in the long run I don't see it as a solution to anything since it would usually demand too much work and probably solve to little in return.

A large part of VNs is interacting with NPCs, so allowing the waiting player to interact with an NPC or environment in a way that doesn't affect the story might work.

Yeah, that would be one possible way to add extra fiction into a MVN.


Mini Games

This is potentially possible, although you are once again limiting the number of people willing and able to create this sort of MVN, since most VN writers are not up for writing minigames. The reason this has potential is that if you design a sort of minigame that consists of fairly short rounds/levels/whatever, then the player will always have time to complete the current level before checking to see if they need to do anything in the story side of the game again. They will not have to be "dragged away" from their game.

Of course, this will end up drastically changing the focus of your project into a game with little bits of interactive story in between it

This all depends on the mini-game at hand and how you define mini-games.

I have, in another thread I'm afraid, given an example of a mini-game that doesn't even require you to leave the original story screen/the original game. My example was to simply display some kind of info (text, signs, pictures) discretely in a a corner of the screen. The content would relate somehow to the game and it would also be a logic puzzle, riddle or clues of some kind and change every now and then. The solution of it wouldn't really affect the main game but solving it would change the game in some way or unlock a branch or option etc.

That is just an example of how a mini-game doesn't have to equal something that completely changes focus from the original game into a totally different game mode. It's also a demonstration of how easy it can actually be to avoid really advanced scripting and yet accomplish something.

It's maybe sufficient to say that there are many ways to create mini-games or elements that work just like them.



Different Areas

Also, if the players were in two different areas they wouldn't have to wait on each other at all, and it'd be possible for the other player to only affect the options they have, eliminating wait time completely.

Like for example, how in Resident Evil 2 what you do in Leon's story mode will affect Claire's on the second playthrough, like for example if certain routes were taken they're either inaccessible or open up completely new areas after they've been run through.

Resident Evil 2 (an excellent game btw) isn't realtime, nor is it multiplayer. First you play with one character, and after that you play with another. (I played it on PS1, so I don't know what version you've seen.)

Being in different areas doesn't solve anything at all if the players choices should affect each other sooner or later. You just "delay the problem". Think about it: P1 plays for 10 minutes before he gets to a point in his area where he should do a selection that affects P2. In what way does him being in a different area solve anything? He still reads in a certain speed and still plays the area in a certain speed. Now, if he is slow, P2 wouldn't be able to proceed in his own area if he has reached the point where P1 should have done the selection by then. If he is too fast, then he wouldn't be able to continue until P2 makes his choices in his area (or he would be able to continue, for a while, and then get stuck waiting for P2 sooner or later).

The problem is that P1 & P2:s actions and what they see on the screen depend on each other. You can't avoid the lag time by having scenarios where they play in different areas.

Unless you of course make it a semi-MVN and each player plays it by him self, in his own pace. When he is done with his share he then sends the save file to the other player. He then continues the story, which would of course depend on how P1 played it. Then when P2 is done, he sends it back to P1. And so on.... and, for that to work, you don't even need to implement multiplayer support: That is already supported in RenPy. [And it is interesting indeed! Even if it's not my original idea..]

[Wintermoon]

Your first problem isn't really a problem: It's not about if you as an author want to interrupt the MVN or if you as a player want to get interrupted in the story. The interruption is a fact and it is assumed that it is already here since the interruption is actually the waiting time, the actual problem that we're discussing. With other words, you can't ever play a MVN without some kind of so-called interruption due to the waiting times. Second, if it's considered to be an interruption or not would depend on the solution the author used. The tricky part here and the goal is to make it a working part of the MVN, with other words, to do our best to not let the player experience it as an interruption.

The problem isn't finding something to fill the waiting time. The problem is the interruption itself. Any "solution" that depends on somehow filling the waiting time fails to address the actual problem which is that the visual novel is being interrupted.

Analogy time. Being stuck in traffic sucks. Having an audio book along can make the experience of waiting in traffic more pleasant. Does the audio book "solve" the problem of being stuck in traffic? Absolutely not. It just mitigates one of the effects of the problem.

[bloodywyvern]

Actually I agree with Wintermoon in the sense the interruption can't just be there for no reason, the best way to handle mini-games as a plausible two player medium is to have it single player as well. Purposely make it a part of the story, crucial to the story even. When you go through the story you play alone, but the mini-game inside is actually there for a purpose. Maybe it's a way of battling or fighting with characters, or a fun way to go place to place (like maybe to go in to town, you get a car driving mini-game where you avoid cars and the like. I can't remember where I saw this...)

The key to it is that, once your done in single player, you can go back and play the mini-game with a friend over the internet WITHOUT the VN aspect.

Now if you really did want to use a mini-game to put an end to waiting time, you'd also have to make it a crucial part of the stories presentation but...make it so it's longer for the one who's reading faster. You might not explicitly say to them it will be longer, but it might be something like this.

Player 1: Reaches mini-game part
Player 2: 5 minutes and 39 seconds till mini game section

Let's say the mini game for this example takes 30 seconds to a minute to finish if they reach it at the EXACT same time, but in this case they don't. So...the above example would work out like this.

Player 1 begins mini game, mini game checks the location of player 2 to see if they are there yet, they aren't. So the mini-game plays for an extra 5 minutes and 39 seconds for player one but they would play for 6 minutes and 9 seconds. Why 6? That way player 2 still gets a chance to experience it without missing out for being slow. Now obviously you can't tell the engine how long player 2 will reach the game. Instead you tell it so set player 1's game to unlimited time, until player 2 reaches it...then you set both of them for the 30 seconds or whatever it normally takes.

Obviously this counts heavily on proper design of the game to fit in to the story.

[papillon]

1. Compelling content doesn't have to distract a user. It could be well integrated into the rest of the story.

You're talking about compelling *extra* content, in which case yes, it does have to distract a user. It doesn't matter if the ideas are related. If you've given me a newspaper to read outside of the flow of the usual VN, and I'm reading a really fascinating newspaper entry about something that happened in the backstory of the world of the game, I am distracted from the VN story I was playing. I'm invested in that fascinating newspaper entry and will be irritated if the game suddenly switches back to VN mode.

2. In order to read the extra content it doesn't have to be "compelling" at all. Users would select if they read the extra fiction or not, and also what sections in it they read if they do.

3. Fascinating/compelling extra fiction must not be a fact for the extra fiction idea to work: It's sufficient with fiction that is interesting enough to be read.

If it isn't compelling, they won't want to read it and will remain bored/frustrated. If it's only vaguely interesting, people may poke at it, but the awareness of the fact that they are waiting for someone else to hurry up and finish will be nagging at them.

4. If you feel you don't want to be dragged back into the original game then the author has done a lousy job or that genre is wrong for you.

Again, you're simply declaring that a solution exists without any evidence. It may be the case that there is a way to do it. But you can't automatically assume that such a case exists. If you automatically assume that all stated problems are resolved by a mythical author doing a good job then we can't really have a discussion, because your mythical author could do anything.

[bloodywyvern]

Again, you're simply declaring that a solution exists without any evidence. It may be the case that there is a way to do it. But you can't automatically assume that such a case exists. If you automatically assume that all stated problems are resolved by a mythical author doing a good job then we can't really have a discussion, because your mythical author could do anything.

Hm I'm pretty sure that mythical author is me Yep fairly certain I can do anything...

Alright, alright just kidding >.>

Good points though, you can't make anything intermediate or extra that's involved within a main story to be overly involving, it's got a strike a balance...something like "Hey this is O.K. I can waste 10 minutes on this, but I can't wait to get back to the VN".

[eyerouge]

Mini-game Interrupting the Game

The problem isn't finding something to fill the waiting time. The problem is the interruption itself. Any "solution" that depends on somehow filling the waiting time fails to address the actual problem which is that the visual novel is being interrupted.

1. You can't ever play a MVN without some kind of waiting times. That is a fact. The question if how we'll handle it in order to make a MVN work. This leads us to what you write, which I this time around hopefully understood.

2. Depending on how the mini-game looks like it does not have to interrupt the main story. It can very well be a fully integrated part of it. Calling it interruption when it's fully integrated is a weird thing to do, if you do it at all that is, since you wouldn't actually have a reason to perceive it as an interruption since it's integrated with the rest of the main storyline.

I'll try to give contrasting examples:

Example 1 - Cancerball
This MVN has a storyline about how hard it is to have cancer and how the cancer patient and her girlfriend handles the situation. Now, as a very odd choice of mini-game the author script up some kind of a pinball machine or whatever. Whenever P1 waits for P2 he would play.. pinball and try to beat his score or whatever (This is of course problematic since a pinball game would be a bad choice for several reasons with respect to the genre, but also as a technical solution since the player would probably finish playing before he continues with the MVN, so, this would even create extra lag since it's a bad choice of mini-game. But, as an example of what I'm trying to show, this will suffice.)

Example 2 - Newspaper Headlines
This MVN is about a journalist that's trying to get an interview with a presidential candidate. He works his ass off and he also has a partner, the photographer (P2), which assists him. While P1 is waiting for P2 newspapers headlines / news are appearing at the top of the screen, They are in part related to all the choices both of the players have made, but, in part also to other stuff that can, if the player selects to click an article, later be injected into the story as a sub-story. It could of course also give more knowledge to the journalist, by reading a news article he'd get more questions to ask the president later, as an example.

Example 3 - Clues
This MVN is my fabulous murder mystery. While playing the interrogator you'd see some kind of icons and/or short textual enigmas at the top of the screen that changed depending on who you spoke to and what you've gotten to know from that person. Those are all differnt types of clues, or, if you want, "thought markers" - signs of relations the detective got vibes of while talking with the suspects but that is still not fully understood by him. The understanding part would of course be up to the player, as the icons show different relations, give additional information about certain topics related to the story or dialog with the persons in it. They could even be real logic puzzles at times, while they're just visual hints at others.


What I was trying to illustrate with the three examples is not what a mini-game is or should be. I'm still of the opinion that a mini-game could be pretty much anything that isn't cruical for the main story and which the success of the main story doesn't depend. What I did above was to give three examples of mini-games. Two of them were rather integrated into the story. They don't actually interrupt in any hard-core sense, it may even be suggested that they make the main story better and more interesting if you'd choose to pay attention to them at all. The third, cancerball, is an example of what I would say is an interrupting mini-game. It's interrupting in the sense that it's actually a real game within the game and that it also lacks relevance to the story and isn't really a part of it. It's also interrupting since it causes further interuption (waiting time).

Now, if something is integrated in the game, it is a part of the game. Every MVN would then have a necessary part, the so called main story, and parts that were not necessary to "pass", like unlocked branches or mini-games. If you still believe that my version of the integrated mini games are in interruption me & you probably use the word interruption differently, as I can't see how an integrated part of the game is an interruption or in any other way actually stand out of the game in some kind of negative sense that makes the whole MVN concept fall apart.

On a second note, if playing certain other multiplaying games equal the actual main story and/or moving pieces on a board/the playing field, then it means that whenever that doesn't happen, like for example there is a loading screen or it's the other players turn, that a problematic interruption is happening. In defense, one could of course admit that there are interruptions (powerplant dies, a friend phones you etc), but, we were talking about interruptions caused by the game.

At some point one would say that there are no interruptions in a game like Civilization because you get the chance to think about your own strategy during the other players turn. If that's true, in what way would the same be false for my suggested example mini-games? Since they're still an integrated part of the game, thinking of them is a matter of fact thinking about the game, just like it is with Civilization. When you consider strategy in Civ you are thinking about the game. When you consider my mini-games you are thinking about the MVN since they're a part of the story.

It doesn't matter that it isn't crucial for the story that you solve the puzzles/read the headlines etc since it still keeps you occupied. It's also not crucial to unlock everything in a single player VN but people still do it, hence it's "proven" that it doesn't matter much if it's necessary to do so or not for the main story as people do it to get more content out of the VN. The same goes for the MVN - they get more content through the mini-games, but, if they don't play the mini-games or fail with some, it doesn't ruin the main storyline. Success with them does however improve things, if other/more options and/or story is seen as something positive in the world of VN:s.

Analogy time. Being stuck in traffic sucks. Having an audio book along can make the experience of waiting in traffic more pleasant. Does the audio book "solve" the problem of being stuck in traffic? Absolutely not. It just mitigates one of the effects of the problem.

There isn't a way to make the waiting times go away in a MVN. What one can do is alter the perception of the waiting time. If a player does nothing he will surely understand and take notice that he's waiting and find it dull. If a player is occupied doing other stuff than nothing, like for example occupied with thinking about the game, then he wouldn't really be equally bothered by it. He could of course still be waiting for the other player to make his selections / finish reading, but, if he is successfully tempted to deal with other stuff, through a minigame for example, it seems as if the problem has been made as small as it can ever be.

Erasing it all together is impossible. What is possible for every player however is to choose how he relates to the waiting and how he perceives it all together. If we as authors offer him something to do that's relevant for the game and a real part of it, I'm sure the experience wouldn't matter for most players. If it would, then very many turn based games wouldn't exist today since they rely on the player keeping busy somehow between the turns. I have demonstrated that I can keep the players busy in a meaningful way, in between turns. In my mind there's not much more one can aim at since "waiting" can't be eradicated. Only thing we can do is to occupy the player. If this is true, then the question is not if he gets interrupted by us finding occupation for him. It's how we best occupy him, given the context. I write this because it would ultimately depend on the story at hand how the mini-game could/should look like, or any other way to keep him occupied for that matter.

[In the above I take it for granted that we're speaking of real-time MVN:s and not play by email or any other multiplayer system that doesn't depend on both players being present at the same time]

Actually I agree with Wintermoon in the sense the interruption can't just be there for no reason,

I haven't suggested that an interruption should be installed without a reason. I'm also still not sure about what you guys consider an interruption or why you consider it as such a phenomenon:

If you mean that waiting for the other player, however it is done, is an interruption that will make the MVN fail as a genre, I believe you're mistaken. Why is shown in the above, in this reply.

If you mean that mini-games could be interrupting, you're right: They can be. And, they can also be non-interrupting, which is also shown above.

the best way to handle mini-games as a plausible two player medium is to have it single player as well.

Here I'm totally lost: My original idea with the mini-games was to let P1 do something meaningful and interesting while he waits for P2, thus, he'd be playing a "mini-game". If he does so while he is waiting for P2 to catch up, P2 won't be there to play with him. My suggested mini-game solution is only a solution if it's a single player activity, something which you do while waiting for P2 (and vice versa).

This does not mean that there couldn't exist multiplayer mini-games. As a matter of fact the thought didn't occur to me until just now. I believe it would be cool as hell to see it in action. However, as a solution to the waiting time issues, the mini games must remain single player. Else they wouldn't solve that specific problem. Thus, multiplayer mini-games (a mini game played by more than one player at the same time) are more or less off topic in this thread. [Re-reading what you wrote it seems as if I have maybe misunderstood you. In such I case just dismiss all I wrote ]

The key to it is that, once your done in single player, you can go back and play the mini-game with a friend over the internet WITHOUT the VN aspect.

Also a very nice idea, shouldn't even be hard to script. Easy to implement and fun. Thumbs up.

Player 1 begins mini game, mini game checks the location of player 2 to see if they are there yet, they aren't. So the mini-game plays for an extra 5 minutes and 39 seconds for player one but they would play for 6 minutes and 9 seconds. Why 6? That way player 2 still gets a chance to experience it without missing out for being slow. Now obviously you can't tell the engine how long player 2 will reach the game. Instead you tell it so set player 1's game to unlimited time, until player 2 reaches it...then you set both of them for the 30 seconds or whatever it normally takes.

Obviously this counts heavily on proper design of the game to fit in to the story

What you speak of takes amounts of work and is complex. It could very well be a way to handle the issue, and I wouldn't oppose it as I believe in more than one solution and to ultimately let the authors find their own solutions and methods that fit them and their style/game.

Getting all those timers right... even when you do know how fast people play & read, it seems hard. Personally I would use my own version of the mini-games suggested in the above somewhere. I would however be very interested in playing a MVN which used your suggested technique as it kicks ass if it's properly implemented and it has the flow you believe it would bring. Again, I don't see the importance of proving the specific details of how the mini-games should be implemented, if it's sufficient to do it my way or if it must be done your way. As long as there seems to be at least one way that's viable and makes it reasonable to think that mini-games solves anything at all I'd smile.

[Hyperguy]

Of course, these are all suggestions.

As in, I'm not going to go at length with any of these.

[Wintermoon]

1. You can't ever play a MVN without some kind of waiting times. That is a fact. The question if how we'll handle it in order to make a MVN work. This leads us to what you write, which I this time around hopefully understood.

Funny, I thought using an audio book model instead of a written book model - as I suggested above - completely eliminated all waiting time caused by reading speed. That leaves bathroom break waiting time (which may really be unavoidable) and decision making waiting time (which can also be avoided, but should be insignificant in any case).

But if you want to declare your problem unsolvable, then I see no point in discussing this further.

(BTW, here is how I would remove decision-making waits in a visual audio book. When a character senses that a decision is coming up, immediately show all options on the screen. The most obvious choice is initially highlighted. The story does not pause. The player can click on any option at any time, causing that option (and only that option) to be highlighted. When the character reaches the decision point, he takes action based on the currently highlighted option.

Example: the protagonist is the judge in a court case. Two options come up: "innocent" and "guilty". The defendant is presumed innocent, so that is the option that is initially highlighted. During the court case, both sides offer evidence and arguments, hopefully causing the player to change his mind several times. The protagonist's words and actions may change based on which option is currently highlighted. At the conclusion of the trial, the protagonist delivers a verdict based on the currently highlighted option and both options are removed from the screen.)

[Jake]

Funny, I thought using an audio book model instead of a written book model - as I suggested above - completely eliminated all waiting time caused by reading speed.

This is true, but it introduces an equally-bad problem for a significant set of people, so it's not an absolute 'solution'.

(To me, certainly, the only advantage of audio books over regular books is that I can do something else - like driving - while listening to them. Past that all of the same speed issues that would annoy me with a naïve-implementation MVN would also annoy me with audio books, which is why I still buy paperbacks. With an MVN, I can't do something else at the same time 'cause there's still a visual component to pay attention to, so it just ends up only occupying my attention very sparsely, giving me lots of brain-time left over to be bored in.)

(BTW, here is how I would remove decision-making waits in a visual audio book. When a character senses that a decision is coming up, immediately show all options on the screen. The most obvious choice is initially highlighted. The story does not pause. The player can click on any option at any time, causing that option (and only that option) to be highlighted. When the character reaches the decision point, he takes action based on the currently highlighted option.

However, this kind of is a pretty good approach, regardless. I'd also consider offsetting the choice and the effect it has on the other player's story; if the choice is made 5 minutes in but doesn't have an effect on the other player until 10 minutes in, then that's five minutes' reading-speed-mismatch leeway you have before the wait intrudes on the other player's game.

[eyerouge]

1. You can't ever play a MVN without some kind of waiting times. That is a fact. The question if how we'll handle it in order to make a MVN work. This leads us to what you write, which I this time around hopefully understood.

Funny, I thought using an audio book model instead of a written book model - as I suggested above - completely eliminated all waiting time caused by reading speed. That leaves bathroom break waiting time (which may really be unavoidable) and decision making waiting time (which can also be avoided, but should be insignificant in any case)

[An audiobook eliminates the need of the MVN alltogether, at least as something that would even require a screen since it doesn't have to be visual. One could simply let every game be made up of a bunch of OGG-files for every branch/player. All decision making could be simple yes or no, left or right, etc, and made with the touch of a wireless keyboard/joypad button or whatever. This would maybe also be a new genre, one that even blind people could enjoy.]

I reckon you're advocating the traditional VN + a voice that reads the text, in a MVN format. As Jake has pointed out it has it's problems, while it also has its charm and probably does away with most of the waiting times.

I'm sure there are both players and authors who'd use it. I wouldn't oppose anyone using it as I'm sure it can work if the players accept/like having the voice acting and don't mind waiting for the voice to finish speaking. Hence, I'd say this is, indeed, a solution for those players and those authors who can arrange voice acting etc. One solution of several non-universal solutions.

But if you want to declare your problem unsolvable, then I see no point in discussing this further.

I was aiming at declaring waiting times due to reading unsolvable if their existence is considered a problem, which it is by most people in here except maybe me as an advocate of the MVN genesis (viva la revulucion ; ). I've also stated that their existence is a fact in the reading model, but, that such an existence doesn't really have to be so overly problematic that it justifies the scrapping of the MVN since the problems seem to have several ways to become smaller, one which you suggested yourself.

(BTW, here is how I would remove decision-making waits in a visual audio book. When a character senses that a decision is coming up, immediately show all options on the screen. The most obvious choice is initially highlighted. The story does not pause. The player can click on any option at any time, causing that option (and only that option) to be highlighted. When the character reaches the decision point, he takes action based on the currently highlighted option.

[Ah. Here you use the term visual audio book. I humbly apologize for the misunderstanding in the above, so disregard the section that deals with it.]

Once again I think your solution is both interesting and doable, in certain settings, depending on the novel at hand... as all other solutions of course.

My only reservation would be "the most obvious choice" part: As you're right that there many times are very obvious choices, I believe, and this is just my personal guess, that human psychology finds making obvious choices less interesting and stimulating than making non-obvious one you'd have to think about someway. Now, this is just a technicality in the way you expressed yourself perhaps, and I believe that your solution is still plausible, with or without obvious choices.

Example: the protagonist is the judge in a court case. Two options come up: "innocent" and "guilty". The defendant is presumed innocent, so that is the option that is initially highlighted. During the court case, both sides offer evidence and arguments, hopefully causing the player to change his mind several times. The protagonist's words and actions may change based on which option is currently highlighted. At the conclusion of the trial, the protagonist delivers a verdict based on the currently highlighted option and both options are removed from the scree

Cool example. Still like the approach.. also feel stupid I didn't think of it myself. Only "danger" would be an over-use of it, so people have to change their option all the time, like every textbox that appears, but that's not really a problem with the solution - it's a problem with the authors imagination