Making the wiki friendlier

Discuss how to use the Ren'Py engine to create visual novels and story-based games. New releases are announced in this section.
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Deji
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Making the wiki friendlier

#1 Post by Deji »

continued from
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 806#p51806

I don't want to keep getting off-topic from the initial topic on the first post, so I'll continue here.

As PyTom mentioned, Ren'Py is aimed to:
- programmers to make a custom and cool VN by giving them the necessary developers tools to do so
and
- non-rpogrammer people who wants to make a VN, by giving them examples and simple code that's enough to make a nice looking VN.

Now, there seems to be no middle ground between the easy Web Tutorial and things on the Reference Manual, so people that are not-programmers but are willing to learn some of it in order to make a more unique game are pretty much lost.

I understand is complicated to make the wiki more friendly, basically because you need to know how to program to undesrrand many of the functions that work with Ren'Py.

So I'm humbly making a call to anybody that understands programming and have a little free time to make it a bit more friendly, either by adding more examples, simplifying the examples provided, adding a friendly explanation to not-so-complicated functions (without getting rid of the technical one), and adding screnshots for the examples that have an on-screen effect.

I'm also asking people that find the wiki complicated in any way to provide feedback in what exactly is causing you trouble, where and what would you feel would be needed to make it more understandable.

I firmly believe that knowledge is a gift that's meant to be shared, so I hope I'm not being annoying in doing this. I just want to learn and help other people like me to learn as well.

----------------------------

Now for my feedback that I hope it's useful to anybody willing to make the wiki more friendly (because right now I can't do it myself).

I was browsing through the Ren'Py Wiki for the last hour and I found that the things that confused me the most were the techical explanations of things and that the code examples were pretty clarifying. 90% of the time I'd just skip the technical explanations for being too complicated and look at the example only... then if I didn't understand what the example was trying to exemplify, I'd look at the explanation for more info and I'd try to "decode" it (the tech language).

I looked at the first five items of the Reference Manual and made a little review... I hope it's not too annoying or I'm too dense for things that should be easy to understand... sometimes english not being my first language doens't help much.

"The Ren'Py Language"

"Syntax Constructs" It's really hard to understand. Probably it's programmers-only oriented.
"Statements" Examples were great to understand things, while the explanations were pretty complicated and not very useful.

Defining Characters
is easy until I get to
Keyword Arguments. In addition to name, Character takes keyword arguments that control its behavior.

(.........)

The copy method on Characters takes the same arguments as the funcref Character constructor, with the exception that the name argument is optional. This method returns a new Character object, one that is created by combining the arguments of the original constructor and this method, with the arguments provided by this method taking precedence.
That's a really long list of arguments, but I don't understand most of them because of this sort of "language barrier" being the more technical language. Little examples or links to examples for the most important/useful/used would be really nice, as right now just looks like a never-ending list of complicated things.

Text
The "Interpolation" bit is really hard to understand, and the link provided to get more info is equally confusing.
The text tags example provided starts like this:

Code: Select all

init:
    $ definition = Character(None, window_yfill=True, window_xmargin=20,
                             window_ymargin=20, window_background=Solid((0, 0, 0, 192)))
I didn't quite get the huge list of arguments from the Defining Character and now I get an example of it in another page that has nothing to do with Character and won't explain it. Of course if I input this code into the game I'll understand by associating, but I think that it'd be useful to either put this as an example in the Character-related page or use a simpler Character in the example.

Displayables
Most functions are linked to its own little page with an example, which is really helpful, but I think it'd be even more helpful if it also showed a screenshot with the effect of the example on-screen, rgather thanletting the reader test it and see for themselves.
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#2 Post by RidleyWright »

Hm, programming is pretty much like drawing and a lot of other stuff: you learn it by doing it. Playing Captain Obvious aside, bear with me on this mini story: I recently finished my second year at University and I had some programming languages, like Java, Assembly, and web oriented languages. Most of the times I had to learn them almost by myself because the Bologna process seems to allow some slacking off on the instructors side. They can buy a book, do some simple examples and then push almost insane projects to what we actually learned in classes. So most of the times I searched using Google and occasionally came across some code, and then I'd mess with it. So copy pasting code and dissecting is usually the approach I'm used to take.

I think that if people want to go further in vn making but don't know much about programming, there's a lot of games already made within the community and it's probably possible to see the .rpy files in most of them. There's a lot of material to research, and certainly a lot of threads with code from making an imagemap main menu, etc etc. And friendly users to help if you get stuck.

About the Reference Manual, I looked up one thing or another, I'm not really focusing on Ren'Py yet. I guess some examples could be a bit user friendly. But anyway, I'd rather search for threads with code or even games, copy paste relevant code into some test script and then crash the game for 3 hours until finally making it work. x'D

Sorry, this kind of opinion isn't probably what you were looking for. ^^'

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#3 Post by Jake »

Deji wrote: "The Ren'Py Language"

"Syntax Constructs" It's really hard to understand. Probably it's programmers-only oriented.
"Statements" Examples were great to understand things, while the explanations were pretty complicated and not very useful.
So I had a go at starting a 'simple' version of this page, to see if it's the kind of thing people are looking for.
http://www.renpy.org/wiki/renpy/doc/ref ... e_(Simple)

It's not linked to from anywhere at the moment, and also obviously only half-finished... but is that the kind of approach you mean? Is it worth continuing?

RidleyWright wrote: Most of the times I had to learn them almost by myself because the Bologna process seems to allow some slacking off on the instructors side.
Total aside, but as it goes - this is quite common in universities, but it doesn't necesarily mean your instructor is slacking. Just that you're expected to be able to learn at a certain pace and investigate things yourself, because otherwise you wouldn't be a degree-quality student; it's more efficient for the instructor to be able to set you the task of learning x and y and just fielding your questions when you get stuck than walking everyone through the course holding your hands all the way, you can cover more material and get more out of the course as a result. ;-)
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#4 Post by Gau_Veldt »

RidleyWright wrote:Hm, programming is pretty much like drawing and a lot of other stuff: you learn it by doing it. Playing Captain Obvious aside, bear with me on this mini story: I recently finished my second year at University and I had some programming languages, like Java, Assembly, and web oriented languages. Most of the times I had to learn them almost by myself because the Bologna process seems to allow some slacking off on the instructors side. They can buy a book, do some simple examples and then push almost insane projects to what we actually learned in classes. So most of the times I searched using Google and occasionally came across some code, and then I'd mess with it. So copy pasting code and dissecting is usually the approach I'm used to take.

I think that if people want to go further in vn making but don't know much about programming, there's a lot of games already made within the community and it's probably possible to see the .rpy files in most of them. There's a lot of material to research, and certainly a lot of threads with code from making an imagemap main menu, etc etc. And friendly users to help if you get stuck.

About the Reference Manual, I looked up one thing or another, I'm not really focusing on Ren'Py yet. I guess some examples could be a bit user friendly. But anyway, I'd rather search for threads with code or even games, copy paste relevant code into some test script and then crash the game for 3 hours until finally making it work. x'D

Sorry, this kind of opinion isn't probably what you were looking for. ^^'
Many of the projects you get in even first year programming courses require knowledge of stuff from outside any programming classes. The age old practice of getting students to implement recursive factorial, for instance, requires basic understanding of the function concept from math (like if you have f(x)=x+3 then f(7)=10). Some of them even use things you'd only see if you were taking first year calculus alongside the programming course (which spells disaster for anyone trying to do the programming part of the course on evenings part time while working and is thus the sole course being taken).

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#5 Post by Deji »

Jake wrote: So I had a go at starting a 'simple' version of this page, to see if it's the kind of thing people are looking for.
http://www.renpy.org/wiki/renpy/doc/ref ... e_(Simple)

It's not linked to from anywhere at the moment, and also obviously only half-finished... but is that the kind of approach you mean? Is it worth continuing?
That's exactly what I was talking about!!
The explanation was totally easy to read and the examples were right to the point.

Thanks for taking the time to do this! =D
RidleyWright wrote:Hm, programming is pretty much like drawing and a lot of other stuff: you learn it by doing it.
(........)
Sorry, this kind of opinion isn't probably what you were looking for. ^^'
That's the kind of approaching I take too when there are no other resources available. I used to learn html that way back then before I got an editor.
But I seriously think that if you have resources available that can show you, teach you or direct you the right way, it's easier and saves precious time that you could spend puting those things to good use =3
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#6 Post by Counter Arts »

If you guys have some sticking points about the higher level stuff and want a simple explanation for stuff then point it out to me. I might be able to help. I just don't have time to be actively searching for complex things to simplify.

I just sit directly on the line between the great divide of creativity and logic so I know both worlds.
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#7 Post by RidleyWright »

Jake wrote:
RidleyWright wrote: Most of the times I had to learn them almost by myself because the Bologna process seems to allow some slacking off on the instructors side.
Total aside, but as it goes - this is quite common in universities, but it doesn't necesarily mean your instructor is slacking. Just that you're expected to be able to learn at a certain pace and investigate things yourself, because otherwise you wouldn't be a degree-quality student; it's more efficient for the instructor to be able to set you the task of learning x and y and just fielding your questions when you get stuck than walking everyone through the course holding your hands all the way, you can cover more material and get more out of the course as a result. ;-)
Oh, certainly, I do agree and actually I do see qualities in the Bologna process. I evolved from not even knowing programming to actually be able to program a site with login and database connection or doing sort of an email application in Java (something that simulates it, more or less). It sure is dynamic and makes the student adapt to situations and come with an answer of their own. I'd think that it prepares one better to the world out there.
The thing is that teachers at my university are rather... mediocre, to not say a lot worse. Sure, there are exceptions, but it's laughable when one makes group of students teach about Flash/ Action Script and requests a board game in flash. And not some board game - a board game which requires the player to answer correctly to questions to advance in the board. Of course, some people consider such situations as a joke. And it's funny that that said teacher, when one of the students cornered the teacher one time in class saying that the teacher wasn't teaching anything or that the game was to hard to make with current knowledge... The teacher ended up actually saying "You're on the Bologna process!". :D

Anyway, finishing the off-topic, the simple version of the reference manual does seem easier to understand and not as boring and technical to read as the other one. Some stuff about ui components and main menu sure would be nice... :P

@Gau_Veldt: Yeah, I do know about that, but that wasn't the sort of situation I was really talking about, it's more what I referred in the comment above.

@Deji: Sure, and for people who don't have much programming experience, a good reference manual is the best way. But it has it's limitations too and to fill in the blanks it's probably worth lurking around.

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#8 Post by papillon »

Some of them even use things you'd only see if you were taking first year calculus alongside the programming course (which spells disaster for anyone trying to do the programming part of the course on evenings part time while working and is thus the sole course being taken).
Well, obviously, courses vary... I mean, I completed a computer science minor and NEVER took calculus! :)

(One of the classes - graphics - did actually require calculus and not bother to tell anyone that. Since this wasn't revealed until past the drop/add period, and I was not the only student who didn't have calculus, the grading for the class eventually became a bit theoretical. 'I would solve this problem in this way if I knew how to do the math which I don't.')

Duke's comp sci program, at the time, had two different levels of intro, one of which you didn't have to take (and I really shouldn't have, but, well, insecure) but was meant as a more gentle introduction to the concept. IIRC most of the assignments consisted of being given an existing almost-complete program and figuring out what needed to be added to it to make it work, therefore making the whole idea of code less scary.

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#9 Post by Jake »

papillon wrote: One of the classes - graphics - did actually require calculus and not bother to tell anyone that.
I get the impression that a lot of that comes down to the individual lecturer, at least in the UK. I signed up for an appealing-looking course titled something like "Mobile Robot Technology and Telecommunications", which promised to be a theoretical overview of the problems facing mobile robotics, and some of the solutions... except the regular lecturer was on sabbatical that year and the one who took the course over saw "robotics" in the title and decided it was a course on inverse kinematics. Which involves, amongst other things, integrating matrices. I didn't even know you could integrate matrices at the beginning of that course. It turned out near the end that he'd thought we were all maths students. ;-)
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#10 Post by PyTom »

papillon wrote:(One of the classes - graphics - did actually require calculus and not bother to tell anyone that. Since this wasn't revealed until past the drop/add period, and I was not the only student who didn't have calculus, the grading for the class eventually became a bit theoretical. 'I would solve this problem in this way if I knew how to do the math which I don't.')
I'm actually curious what your graphics class did that required calculus. I took 2 graduate-level graphics courses: computer graphics and visualization. I don't remember using any calculus in those courses, at least in the Newton and Leibniz sense. I did wind up using a lot of matrix math, though.

Here's something I did from my visualization class, which involved turning 3d voxel data (like you get out of an MRI or CAT scan) into a 2d visualization, with different densities in different colors. (Click it, since the preview is hopelessly wrong.)
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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#11 Post by papillon »

Never having *taken* calculus I could be wrong and it could have been some entirely different facet of math. I tend to assume that all math which is beyond me is calculus. :) The things I particularly remember staring at in dismay were quaternions and shadow/bump-mapping.

We did not get to make pretty graphics in this class. We got to make very ugly shapes in openGL and talk about the math required to render and orient things in 3d.

My personal math background went up to just about the initial introduction of vectors and matrices, which I vaguely understand but require a lot of refreshing on in order to use. Also, I failed the last math exam I ever took primarily because I found it a waste of time to perform complex math on paper when I could get the computer to do it for me. :) (Long story)

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#12 Post by deinarious »

O_o the above picture is awesome! what program or machine was used for that?

...

Umm... I'm all for the usefulness and helpfulness of the wiki being improved. I just don't have anything to contribute except being one of the first people to read and critique it when it's done.

I myself use the wiki every time I work with Ren'Py (which is practically for several hours almost every day), and I'd have to say it is pretty useful already. Besides, there is one benefit of it not having that stuff, albeit an awkward one.

People will feel tempted to join the forums, and will ask questions here. That is part of how I joined... The wiki didn't have a few things.

Then again, I like forums ^_^ That's a bigger reason for me joining.

A table of contents page could help by the way. A page or two with all the links of the wiki on it. Would take a while to make it though. And don't ask me. I can only make wiki pages if I have a template. I copypasta, in other words.

You don't have to add my suggestion. Would be interesting though. A link on the home page to a TOC, then all the other links there. Real interesting.

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#13 Post by PyTom »

deinarious wrote:O_o the above picture is awesome! what program or machine was used for that?
IIRC, the original source data was the output of either a CT or MRI scan. A program that I wrote was what turned the 3d data into 2d data, with lighting, color, and opacity computed based on the density of the materials involved. For example, muscle gets that transparent red color, while bone gets a whitish color, and air was completely transparent. Writing the program from scratch was part of the programming assignment for my visualization course.

I then rendered, IIRC, 36 shots from 36 angles, and combined them in an off-the-shelf gif-animation-maker.

(PLUG: You too can learn how to write the software that makes these visualization. Just write Famous Computer Scientist School, Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY)

(More seriously, we've actually done quite a bit with visualization at SBU. For example, the department chair was involved with the invention of Virtual Colonoscopy, something that is far less bad than real colonoscopy.)

A table of contents page could help by the way. A page or two with all the links of the wiki on it. Would take a while to make it though. And don't ask me. I can only make wiki pages if I have a template. I copypasta, in other words.
Well, there is http://www.renpy.org/wiki/Special:Allpages , which is the list of all pages on the wiki. And links are pretty easy to make:

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Re: Making the wiki friendlier

#14 Post by deinarious »

O_o I did not know of that page! *bookmarks it*

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