Ren'Py @ 5: Version 1

[PyTom]

millions of potential new users

To be honest, I don't think Ren'Py has an audience of millions of users. Maybe a thousand or so users, ten on the outside.

Of course, Ren'Py games might have a potential audience of millions. But those are people who want to play (for example) Summer Session, not develop using Ren'Py.

[jack_norton]

Argh I can't write, I wanted to say that indeed, not potential new developers but public or market

[vlint]

To be honest, I don't think Ren'Py has an audience of millions of users. Maybe a thousand or so users, ten on the outside.

That may be true, but I do honestly believe that with the proper advertising, Ren'Py's popularity would by far outweigh that of the visual novel engines made before it, and even the others I've seen developing. Ever thought about paid advertising in the right places? I would recommend some of those gaming sites—they get tons of hits, you know—or maybe sites more in the realm of fiction, too (although the others would probably produce more hits, but the fiction-based ones might draw more writers than gamers). Art sites might be good, too (such as elfwood.com—I guess they're more than art). You might not even have to be the one to foot the bill. I'm sure people would be willing to donate for the cause (or maybe even companies, if you can convince them that this would also be profitable for them—although that might be hoping).

I saw one new visual novel engine that looked extremely promising, but it had one major drawback: it was Windows-only. I wouldn't fully support such a thing, myself (especially since I'm a Linux-only person, these days, and I sympathize for the Mac users, too, although I haven't regularly used one freely since that old upgraded Performa 550—I still remember that I liked the extensions, and the diversity of them: especially ones like the multiple copy/paste: I have yet to see anything that works as well on another operating system, although it's simple enough that someone's bound to do it sooner or later). Anyway, the name wasn't so catchy, as it slips my mind (but I think it had novel in the name)—and it hadn't been released yet, anyhow.

[DaFool]

vlint >> I've read in one issue of Fortune magazine that web companies today have a hard time coming up with a viable business model with user-generated content and social networking. Even google who bought youtube doesn't really make hand over fist on youtube... i mean what's to earn from except from companies who market in youtube?

So unless you're yahoo, click-supported banner ads are not that big of a deal, it turns out. Somehow it's similar to the financial markets in that when you follow the money trail all the way to the end, often you see that there's actually no real product or service that's being offered!

-----------------------------------------------

Now may be a good time to be thinking of "Ren'Py Professional" or a series of packages that require professional support.

Exploding the user-base and expecting the same amount of TLC for each of them is a bit unreasonable for someone giving his free time.

This could probably tie-in with a more professional portal... LSF would still be called a nursery, so to speak, for creators struggling to get their first games off the ground. I mean there's still essentially just 2 moderators, as those have been the only ones needed all this time (people more or less behaved themselves until recently).

We just need a point where there are many self-sustaining projects. Look at Gemot now, there are now more translations than I have time for, which is actually good in terms of choice.

[delta]

That may be true, but I do honestly believe that with the proper advertising, Ren'Py's popularity would by far outweigh that of the visual novel engines made before it, and even the others I've seen developing.

Never. The core market of VNs is Japan, and there Ren'Py barely registers while custom engines and KiriKiri reign supreme (Ren'Py does not even have Japanese documentation, not to mention lack of features crucial to proper Japanese like Ruby text and vertical text) Unless you mean outside Japan - and in that case, it already happened.

[PyTom]

That may be true, but I do honestly believe that with the proper advertising, Ren'Py's popularity would by far outweigh that of the visual novel engines made before it, and even the others I've seen developing.

The core market of VNs is Japan, and there Ren'Py barely registers

Surprisingly, this isn't totally true anymore. In the past few days, I'm starting to notice various people in Japan looking at Ren'Py. This is probably due to it being supported on multiple platforms, and included in Ubuntu. I don't expect it to take over from the Japanese engines anytime soon. (Due to the various problems that Delta mentioned, especially the lack of Japanese documentation.)

[vlint]

vlint >> I've …

Hmm. About the banner ads not being very effective, I certainly can see why they're not effective. It's because they're not advertising things that people either want or trust. Plus most of these products have at least thousands of competitors. Take a look for yourself. What percent of the products you see advertised would you actually trust, even if they might interest you? Ren'Py, I think, would do better than a weight loss product, or a social dating service. I think most of the reason the advertising fails is because the things being advertised are accounted spam or scams, and are readily identifiable as such.

I have, on the other hand, seen advertisement banners that are actually interesting, and gain my attention (although they generally weren't on the most commercial of sites).

I was not meaning to suggest in the slightest that Ren'Py go into some commercial mode of sorts (although I've heard rumors, and maybe even seen PyTom mention it—but I certainly did not mean to bring that up, myself). I meant to suggest advertising it as what it is: a free product—not as a proprietary, commercial one. That's all well and good if the commercial thing comes up (as I understand the certain desired extra features may not occur without a commercial version, and I also understand that the free one as is will still exist), but that's not what I mean to encourage.

EDIT:
I didn't mean to limit my suggestion only to banner advertisements. I just figured that would be the most economical way, for a free product. Honestly, I wish I'd see more interesting things being advertised on TV, and hear them on the radio. There are tons of other methods, too. I mean, making friends in the right places, and getting them to know and appreciate your product (and consequently advertise it of their own accord) can be of great help.

[vlint]

Never. The core market …

I am aware of how this has been the case, and I stand by my statement. The Japanese, of all, should understand innovation best. To think that it couldn't be big outside of Japan is a highly conservative way of life.

[vlint]

… Unless you mean outside Japan - and in that case, it already happened.

Sorry, I guess I didn't read your whole statement.

Anyway, I wouldn't say it has happened outside of Japan yet. I meant the whole world, including Japan, though. So, according to what I meant, Ren'Py would have to have more than the popularity that Japan claims for previous visual novel engines, only this greater popularity would be spread throughout the world (including whatever Japan contributed, whether or not Japan in and of itself was overwhelmed by Ren'Py, heh, heh). I don't think even visual novels have reached that yet (discounting Japan here), let alone Ren'Py. However, this could easily change. Keeping with all the nitty gritty features native to the Japanese style, however (if they were made to seem required of all visual novels), would probably slow things down considerably with the rest of the world, although I'm sure it would be loved by the animé culture, and appreciated by the Japanese. Anyway, I think every country's culture could contribute to visual novels.

[vlint]

… However, this could easily change.

Video games of late seem to be preparing the way for the future popularity of visual novels. Many newer games are, what I would call, 90% visual novel. Take Mass Effect, for instance. Most of that game, sans the animation and battle scenes, could be done in a visual novel engine (with relative ease). People love those portions of the game, too (since they are the meat of the game). What are your thoughts?

[mugenjohncel]

Personally, the best way to advertize Ren'py is to... create better games.

Sure, Ren'py is quite famous now... for being the engine of choice for crappy VN's... which is sad - but true (Hey!... don't look at me like that... 4Chan said it) Scripting on Ren'py is easy. That is a double edged sword. On one hand, it's easy to learn and people can start making their own VN with little or no technical knowledge. But this is also the very reason why Ren'py has tons of crappy games since it's so easy to use. Incompetent people are now making garbage (games) out of it thus earning Ren'py it's ill deserved reputation despite being technically superior to other engines (4Chan said it... not me).

We all know 4Chan (especially /jp/) is not really the best place to gather opinions and crits since the general populace has this fixed mindset leaning towards... well you know... something EyeCandy and Japanese... stuff like that... but under all that rubbish, Touhou Reposts and Trolls are a few valid crits and opinions worth considering.

Me?... I wish to contribute to Ren'py's cause by donating spare time and talent concentrating on making VN's that mimic Japanese VN's (with lot's of eyecandy) using Ren'py and release them for free to attract audience hoping that maybe they could spread the word and perhaps inspire a few of them to decided and push things further... encourage them to create their own (hopefully better) VN's using Ren'py... this is my way of saying thanks to Pytom for Ren'py.

If I'm on Krauser II's shoes I would have said something like...

Without Ren'py I would have been a Murderer...
RAPERAPERAPERAPERAPERAPERAPERAPERAPERAPE!!!

Edit:
Forgot this... it's tradition

"POOF" (Disappears)

[delta]

… However, this could easily change.

Video games of late seem to be preparing the way for the future popularity of visual novels. Many newer games are, what I would call, 90% visual novel. Take Mass Effect, for instance. Most of that game, sans the animation and battle scenes, could be done in a visual novel engine (with relative ease). People love those portions of the game, too (since they are the meat of the game). What are your thoughts?

My thougths are that VNs as a genre are dying. There has been little no innovation in the Japanese market as of late. While story-based games have their appeal, it would be extremely foolish to think that you could put the story parts of Mass Effect in a VN and have a hit on your hands. It just doesn't work like that.

[vlint]

… it would be extremely foolish to think that you could put the story parts of Mass Effect in a VN and have a hit on your hands. It just doesn't work like that.

I didn't say anything about converting Mass Effect into a visual novel, and thus create a hit. I was saying games like Mass Effect were preparing the way for more people to be introduced to visual novels (since, it is, pretty much, a visual novel with a few extras thrown in—fans of such would be more likely to appreciate a visual novel after having played it than before, I think).

[vlint]

Personally, the best way to advertize Ren'py is to... create better games.

I could agree with this, but I don't agree that it can knowledgeably be said the creators of most Ren'Py games are incompetent (a poorly done game isn't proof of that—not everyone cares about their image, and not all people care to devote as much time, or attention, to creating something of expert quality for free).

That aside, I don't think creating more commercial visual novels is the answer, even if they are totally awesome. Many, if not most, people will still see the free ones first—and what they see first is important. I would like to propose that more people like you claim to be (no implications intended) release a free project here and there (of commercial quality)—and not just demos; a lot of people don't trust a demo enough to use it (thinking it'll take over their computer or what-have-you, since products that come with demos, it seems, often have spyware more than those that don't—although someone who knew about Ren'Py would likely know better). Nevertheless, there are some free games for Ren'Py, I would deign to say, that are quite recommendable for a first impression (and they're what brought me here—they also caught the interest of a friend of mine).

EDIT:
I personally like demos to visual novels. What I was saying was that I know there is a tendency to distrust software with demos (though I don't really know how many people have it). I have the tendency, but not as much with visual novels (especially cross-platform ones).

Also, by commercial quality, maybe I don't quite mean commercial quality in every respect. I mostly just mean in the ways that make the game fun, interesting and at least fairly respectable among the proper audiences. As I said in a future post, it's mostly just the script/story that I'm talking about. Even most (not all) of the free visual novels I've seen have excellent artwork and music. The presentation is pretty random, though (although there are lots of aspects to presentation: i.e. presenting sound, images, visual effects, text, story, emotions, perspective, …)

[DaFool]

Man... it's the same set of topics that just begs me to comment, as I'm sure you're all tired of hearing my opinions on these things by now...

Me?... I wish to contribute to Ren'py's cause by donating spare time and talent concentrating on making VN's that mimic Japanese VN's (with lot's of eyecandy) using Ren'py and release them for free to attract audience hoping that maybe they could spread the word and perhaps inspire a few of them to decided and push things further... encourage them to create their own (hopefully better) VN's using Ren'py... this is my way of saying thanks to Pytom for Ren'py.

I also push myself as a way of saying thanks for renpy. But now that I realize most Japanese VNs are the same old cookie-cutter schoolgirl romances, I actually want something different, so dig deep into the bag of western culture to see what can bring new flavor to the medium.

Its kinda funny that 4ch actually implies technical barriers are better at raising the standard of VNs -- as if there are tons of quality EVNs made with onscripter or kirikiri already.

My thoughts are that VNs as a genre are dying. There has been little no innovation in the Japanese market as of late.

The bigger anime industry also as a whole is past its peak. Contrary to what people think, a shrinking market does not necessarily produce more innovation... perhaps less. More stuff that sells = more generic pantsu. 4ch is lucky in that it loves its moe, otherwise that's another thing to complain about.

That aside, I don't think creating more commercial visual novels is the answer, even if they are totally awesome. Many, if not most, people will still see the free ones first

That's well and good, but if one is pushing for something to be judged according to non-compromising commercial standards, that person is already working very hard and there comes a point where he asks why isn't he being compensated.

I like to use commercial games as benchmarks -- looking at their art quality, music tracks, number of CGs, playtime. Then just note "Ah, so they're charging 1890 yen / 20 bucks for that, maybe I can match that quality and charge less or none". And it's still not a guarantee that my game will be fun, but these kinds of games usually are not fun in any case.

Now, if anyone expects to get a 9240 yen quality game for free (without resorting to piracy) -- these things have budgets in the tens of thousands of dollars mind you -- they're just being unreasonable, the spoiled 'free animu' generation.

Back on topic, I just want the Ren'Py community to have enough steam at least to last another 5 more years, hopefully more. 10 years is pretty significant (and rare) for anything software or internet-related, it means it's an old-timer.