Ren'Py for iPhone. A lost cause?

[Voight-Kampff]

Well, I know PyTom hasn't exactly put much weight into the idea of making a special version of Ren'Py for the iPhone. But with the latest changes to development for WebKit, I assume this effectively kills any such hope?

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/ ... ndroid.ars

Presumably, any Ren'Ai game that isn't built from the ground up in C, C++, Objective-C or Javascript will be given the Steve Jobs Stamp'o Rejection. Or am I reading this inccorectly?

[jack_norton]

Yes exactly, must be built in C/C++/Obj-C etc. There's still the android though

[PyTom]

Presumably, any Ren'Ai game that isn't built from the ground up in C, C++, Objective-C or Javascript will be given the Steve Jobs Stamp'o Rejection. Or am I reading this inccorectly?

From what I understand, this is correct. According to multiple news sources, the new developer agreement says:

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

The way I read this, if applied consistently, it pretty much bans all visual novel engines from the iPhone/iPad/iPod platform. Since all visual novel engines that I know of use a scripting language to describe their games, if applied consistently, this clause makes them all now unacceptable to Apple.

In fact, this clause bans any language designed in the past 15 years from running on the iPlatform.

Now, I wasn't actively pursuing Ren'Py development for the iPlatform, because the next clause of the agreement bans interpreted languages. I had some ideas on how to get around this using Cython, but I didn't have time to pursue them. I'm kinda glad I didn't, because this new development makes those ideas moot.

Unless Apple changes their policy, the chance of a Ren'Py port to the iPlatform is now 0. I will not waste my time working on a project that Apple will reject.

I encourage people to avoid purchasing Apple products (with the exception of the Macintosh). I've always been uncomfortable with Apple's restriction of the sort of content they allow on their platform, which would prevent many fine visual novels from being ported there. Couple that with inane technical decisions that benefit Apple while hurting developers (and eventually, users), and I can't see any good reason to purchase iPlatform products.

Especially now that there are, or soon will be, products available that dominate the iPlatform products in every way.




I suspect Android will be the next platform I support. I have a good idea on how the port will work, and so the big holdup is getting the time to develop it. (Also, my current phone is a little too wimpy to support Ren'Py, so I'm waiting for my contract to be up in October to get a new phone.)

I also have some ideas on web delivery of Ren'Py games, where the Ren'Py engine runs on a server and streams down a list of display commands to a thin client. But that's not something I've totally thought out yet, and I need to run some experiments to decide if it would work well enough in practice to be worth pursuing.

[luminarious]

This web delivery idea sounds promising, as I feel it would be the most cross-platform way of doing things on handhelds. It reminds me of Opera Mini, which also renders web pages in the Opera server cluster and then the compressed image is forwarded to the client on the phone.

I was just thinking that there are so many different platforms for handheld devices now. Focusing on just one would reduce the potential audience a lot. Windows Phone 7 seems quite interesting with its 800*480px minimum screen size requirement. But porting a Ren'py game to Silverlight or XNA is just ridiculous amount of work..

[nibl]

...I also have some ideas on web delivery of Ren'Py games, where the Ren'Py engine runs on a server and streams down a list of display commands to a thin client.

I had a similar idea on that and would be interested in helping out since I've done some desktop client to webserver development recently.

A webserver approach also adds incentive to commercial games developers who suffer from unpaid copies of their desktop games. If the actual content is streamed over the web Renpy could offer the best of both desktop and web, even multiplayer options.

The only tricky part in my experience are timing issues between client and server. It should be adjustable by the Renpy programmer to the needs of the application, power of the server, and the user's connection. Given a good caching mechanism it's quite doable IMO.


As for Apple, it's sad how they've become the top control freak. I did't believe it when I wanted to port an app to the iPhone and read the restrictions. I dropped the idea immediately.

[Sin]

It's a typical Apple dick move. They make arbitrary rules and everyone conforms to them, because they're Apple. People will do anything to get onto their billion dollar marketplace.

As a developer I'm more excited about Windows Phone 7, because the development model is very very simple. Silverlight for apps, XNA for games. Both are rich declarative API's and the latter is based on DirectX, of which I'm very familiar.

[PyTom]

Although Microsoft has been a lot better at this than Apple has been, I wonder how open the new Windows Phone 7 platform will actually be. One of the important differences between the Android market and the Apple app store is that in the former, I can simply check a box and install non-market applications. In the latter, I have to resort to quasi-legal jailbreaking to install games without Apple's permission.

I honestly don't know which of these models Microsoft will wind up with. The company has experience with both (with Windows and Xbox, respectively), and I don't know which they will wind up choosing.

[jack_norton]

My bet is that MS goes for a closed system similar to the iPhone one, but I hope to be wrong

[IxIoN]

My bet is that MS goes for a closed system similar to the iPhone one, but I hope to be wrong

lol iPhone is already too popular. And MS usually make a lot of error, at least at the beginning, in their systems. It's wouldn't do well.

[Sin]

lol iPhone is already too popular. And MS usually make a lot of error, at least at the beginning, in their systems. It's wouldn't do well.

I don't have an iPhone. I don't know anyone who has an iPhone. I think their popularity is mainly restricted to the United states.
But you're half-right about Microsoft. A common remark is that it takes three versions before they get it right. Historically this is true.

My bet is that MS goes for a closed system similar to the iPhone one, but I hope to be wrong

Here is some real information on Windows Phone (from their own conference):
http://live.visitmix.com/Videos

Here's what I've learned:

• Silverlight and XNA. Both API's have been around for years already.
• The development tools are free. Visual studio express (code), Expression Blend (GUI) + SDK and emulator. Download and go.
• Languages include the suite of .NET languages (C#, VB.NET, F#, IronPython, IronRuby). I'm not sure about C/C++. Probably not.
• You only need to register with Microsoft to get a code that unlocks a phone for debugging.
• You will submit your app/game via a marketplace portal. You register an account and upload your app.
• The approval system is automatic, meaning a computer will disassemble the code and run some heuristics to look for hacks and exploits. They specifically said they don't want to be like Apple (though not in those exact words). It's in their interest to keep human intervention to a minimum and keep the process as fast as possible.
• Integration with Live achievements. (Points!)

Like I said, as a developer I'm excited because Microsoft has made a lot of good decisions with their phone OS. I can't say if the phone will be a success or not, but it appears to be extremely easy to develop for it. This is in stark contrast to Apple. Their system is infamous for being unfair and controlled to the nth degree. With OS4 they just made it even more-so.

PS. Remember, competition is a good thing.

[jack_norton]

Cool Competition is always a good thing. And one of the main reasons I moved to Renpy/python is because I had enough of the Apple buggy/crazy dev environment. You can say anything about MS but can't touch their developement tools. Even XNA was super easy to use, had a working version of Heileen in 2 weeks (then I decided not to go with it because of my hate for closed system but that's another story).

[Jake]

But you're half-right about Microsoft. A common remark is that it takes three versions before they get it right. Historically this is true.

On the other hand, they've had more than three iterations of a mobile OS. ;-)


The other two main reasons you can expect MS to be better to the developer and consumer than Apple:

- They don't have the marketshare Apple has, and they want it, so they're not going to want to do anything to jeopardise growth like "making it difficult for developers to create cool user-enticing software for the platform" or "making it difficult for users to run the software that they want to on their hardware". (Apple gets away with being a dick because they have the majority of the marketshare; they're in the same position in the Smartphone market as MS was in in the OS market a little while ago, and they're proving that - whatever casual observers may prefer to think - they're every bit as bad as MS, if not worse.)

- They've already had governments breathing down their neck over various anti-consumer moves, and they don't want it to happen again.

Competition is always a good thing.

Except in first-past-the-post electoral systems...

[IceD]

It's the same as Microsoft's denial for japanese shmups on xbla: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/30/cave- ... microsoft/. Screw them all. Glad that Cave released Mushihimesama region free. And as with this, There's still hope for developers.

[Jake]

It's the same as Microsoft's denial for japanese shmups on xbla

What? No it isn't, it's nothing like that at all.

Think of it this way, because this is how MS seems to think of it: XBLA is a publication imprint of MS'; they examine each offering and decide whether it fits in the imprint, whether it will be profitable enough, and decide whether or not to publish. Human beings make the decisions based on their perceptions of the market, and in this case, they decided that people were already getting sick of perfect arcade ports on XBLA, and to release more arcade ports would devalue the service as a whole, which they have a vested interest in avoiding.

The Windows Phone application marketplace - to the best of anyone's knowledge outside of MS - is not such a publication imprint, it's a marketplace, much more akin to the wider Xbox 360 game marketplace, where Cave have been perfectly able to publish any shmups they please, arcade ports or otherwise, regionalised as they want, with no hassle from MS. Importantly, as Sin noted, MS isn't having human beings examine the apps for suitability, it's making automated checks - and it's probably only making automated checks to see whether or not the apps in question do anything obviously dodgy that they could reasonably be expected by a court of law to guard against (like, say, skimming through the user's contact list and emailling automatically-executing copies of itself to everybody).


I know it's fashionable to call Microsoft the antichrist - and I'm a big fan of bullet-hell shooters myself, and would have loved to be able to buy those ones on XBLA - but really, comparing the XBox 360 to a smartphone is pretty disingenuous. These days, informed people expect to be able to write apps for their smartphones; no such expectation exists for games consoles, and in fact publishers expect platform owners to do the precise opposite, in an effort to protect their markets. Not to mention that Microsoft has already made far more of an effort than either other major console owner to allow users to develop and sell games on their console with a minimum of fuss.

[jack_norton]

XBLA is quite different from XNA/Creators club. You can publish anything you want (within reasonable guidelines) on xbox with the creators club, using XNA framework, Torque, Unity or anything compatible. Quite different from what's happening to the appstore right now