Production Cost of Commercial VN (made with Ren'Py thus far)

[jack_norton]

Was about to post, but exactly what papillon said.
Try to make original games, and DON'T compete on prices. I tried several times lowering prices and I only made less money.

[Mirage]

Well, I never have problem with arts because both my friend and I are artists, so our budget are only the royalty free music which is around 500 usd. (Got around 50 of them)

But then, I did literally everything, writing, drawing, animation, design, website, programming. And the game took like 3 years to make lol! How am I supposed to calculate how much money that 3 years going to take? Orz

Speaking of which, I have heard lots of people with problems getting arts from the artists despite they already paid. I was the exact opposite. I did many commissions and the commissioners ran away without giving me a single cent. That's why I no longer accept commission that doesn't pay me upfront. I don't even want to risk paying 50% since I have had people ran away with only paying half.

[Topagae]

@mirage:

It's really hard to measure, labors of love like this that take a very long time, that take time away from personal stuff and not just paid work. It's hard to measure in general. As for commissions. Yea that's happened to me. 2k down the darned drain -_-, and they were friends I'd know for YEARs.

IT's all about trust, but take my advice, get something in writing and be prepared to sue.

[fortaat]

Yea that's happened to me. 2k down the darned drain -_-, and they were friends I'd know for YEARs.

Wow, that's harsh. It's an example why you shouldn't work with friends - it sucks balls to have money ripped from you, but it's the demeaning feeling of betrayal that keeps me angry for years

At least you learned the proper lesson: All business transactions should be backed by means which can be used as evidence in court. If you must talk on the phone, get their consent to tape your conversations.

[Topagae]

@Fortaat

Good advice all. My problem was NOT that I didn't keep good records, but that because of the kind of case I could raise against them, and our state laws, I would have to press charges in THEIR state. 3000 miles away. And it would take days. And I might not win. I decided to cut my losses and just try to forget about the heart crippling betrayal.

[Tsuki-chan]

Speaking of which, I have heard lots of people with problems getting arts from the artists despite they already paid.

Ah, yes, I have encountered a similar problem. I've paid upfront for artwork in the past, and while the artist did complete the artwork, they did not complete it in the way that I asked. While that wouldn't have been a problem, when I asked them to make a few changes, they said that they would...once they completed all of their other commissions. Which basically ended up being never.

It is the sad but honest truth that some artist believe that you should be satisfied with what you get, nevermind the fact that you are paying them for their services. Definitely not the best way to get repeat business, though.

In any case, the best solution for ensuring that all parties are satisfied and a practical guarantee that no one will be ripped off is to include a contract in the deal.

[papillon]

Speaking of which, I have heard lots of people with problems getting arts from the artists despite they already paid. I was the exact opposite. I did many commissions and the commissioners ran away without giving me a single cent. That's why I no longer accept commission that doesn't pay me upfront. I don't even want to risk paying 50% since I have had people ran away with only paying half.

Similarly, there's many of us who would NEVER pay an artist up-front because there are tons of scammers out there... even people who post galleries of stolen art to pretend to be artists and then vanish after luring in some customers with promises of cheap quality work!

(Well, okay, I'd pay someone upfront if they had a trustworthy reputation and it was a <$50 job so I wouldn't be out much if they robbed me. Similarly, I always mention that I have paid artists before and can provide references if needed. Nobody's ever taken me up on that though.)

At least if you do art and don't get paid, you still have the art, which is better than what the reverse situation would be? (Not that much better though!)

But mostly as long as both sides make their terms clear up front, people who won't take those terms can know to look elsewhere, so it's all good.

[kinougames]

If you're paying 10K for art alone on an indie VN, I daresay your game is either really long or Jesus is your artist. xD

Leaving aside that Papillon was referring to art and music, he referenced her game Fatal Hearts... which was pretty long by the standards of games we see on this forum, had quite a few characters and backgrounds, regular event CGs and also lots of minigames which would also need graphics. So it's fair to say she probably asked for quite a lot more art than something like Jisei used.

I've never played Fatal Hearts, so I wouldn't really be able to gauge properly~

[Topagae]

Speaking of which, I have heard lots of people with problems getting arts from the artists despite they already paid.

Ah, yes, I have encountered a similar problem. I've paid upfront for artwork in the past, and while the artist did complete the artwork, they did not complete it in the way that I asked. While that wouldn't have been a problem, when I asked them to make a few changes, they said that they would...once they completed all of their other commissions. Which basically ended up being never.

It is the sad but honest truth that some artist believe that you should be satisfied with what you get, nevermind the fact that you are paying them for their services. Definitely not the best way to get repeat business, though.

In any case, the best solution for ensuring that all parties are satisfied and a practical guarantee that no one will be ripped off is to include a contract in the deal.

Careful careful. Contracts are hard to enforce so if a person REALLY wants to scam you they might well know that for anything under a couple thousand dollars just taking someone to court might take more money then you paid them. If you get lucky and they're close by you MIGHT be able to go to a local small claims court for less money, but it's no guarantee you'll win either.

[kinougames]

Careful careful. Contracts are hard to enforce so if a person REALLY wants to scam you they might well know that for anything under a couple thousand dollars just taking someone to court might take more money then you paid them. If you get lucky and they're close by you MIGHT be able to go to a local small claims court for less money, but it's no guarantee you'll win either.

This is a common error people make, at least for the US. Even in the more expensive states, like NY, it only costs about $50-70 bucks to file a claim in small claims court, the max prize of which is from 2K to 5K depending on state. There are other added pieces that -could- make it cost more, but in general, if you're suing for even $500, it's well worth the $70 or however bucks.

[LVUER]

Don't try to mimic someone else's game and do it worse for more cost, you'll be obviously shooting yourself in the foot. Do your OWN games with their own selling points and stick to your guns on them. And offer the occasional discount for those who do have less budget - the emotional value of a discount is much stronger than an everyday low price.

Completely agree with that (though from a buyer POV). I hates how a game/company decided to mimic other company style that sell their games better... and ruin their own games.

And yeah, discounts have invisible power that lure you to buy items that you don't need... or don't want to buy initially. Perhaps the "a brief once in a life-time offer" that have the power, not the amount/percentage of discounts...

Speaking of which, I have heard lots of people with problems getting arts from the artists despite they already paid.

Ah, yes, I have encountered a similar problem. I've paid upfront for artwork in the past, and while the artist did complete the artwork, they did not complete it in the way that I asked. While that wouldn't have been a problem, when I asked them to make a few changes, they said that they would...once they completed all of their other commissions. Which basically ended up being never.

It is the sad but honest truth that some artist believe that you should be satisfied with what you get, nevermind the fact that you are paying them for their services. Definitely not the best way to get repeat business, though.

I have it the other way around. A person make a request from me in DA (request, not commission, so I do it for free). I made the pics, everyone seems like it, that person seems like it. So everything alright? No, that person wanted a slight change in skin color. OK, why not? Only a minor color adjustment. Done. What happened? That person asked me to change it again... and the same thing happened once more... and it still haven't stopped, that person still ask some changes...

This is a common error people make, at least for the US. Even in the more expensive states, like NY, it only costs about $50-70 bucks to file a claim in small claims court, the max prize of which is from 2K to 5K depending on state. There are other added pieces that -could- make it cost more, but in general, if you're suing for even $500, it's well worth the $70 or however bucks.

But how about international contract? Over the internet for example?

[Tsuki-chan]

I have it the other way around. A person make a request from me in DA (request, not commission, so I do it for free). I made the pics, everyone seems like it, that person seems like it. So everything alright? No, that person wanted a slight change in skin color. OK, why not? Only a minor color adjustment. Done. What happened? That person asked me to change it again... and the same thing happened once more... and it still haven't stopped, that person still ask some changes...

In that case, I'd say it's a bit different. Considering that you're doing the person a favor by completing the request for nothing in return, they really should be happy that you're doing anything at all. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that it's absolutely forbidden that they ask you to make some small change (though, if it has to do with color, they should probably show you an example instead of asking you to do the same thing over and over again), but they definitely shouldn't expect a masterpiece. However, I believe that if someone's actually paying for your artwork, they should be completely satisfied with it.

[Topagae]

I don't know much about international contract law, it's sort of convoluted, even for you know, law. If you're big and powerful you can force people in countries that are on good terms with your country to come to court in YOUR country, but GENERALLY that's for criminal matters and not civil matters. When dealing with people very far away, especially in a different country, it's a big amount of faith your placing in the other person.

[Mirage]

Lol, maybe I am an artist who got cheated a lot, so I am a bit sensitive about this...

It is the sad but honest truth that some artist believe that you should be satisfied with what you get, nevermind the fact that you are paying them for their services. Definitely not the best way to get repeat business, though.

I have the exact opposite situation from you. I have gotten a commissioner who changed his mind about what he wanted to draw 7 times!!! And he only paid me for the price of 1 piece of art! I felt like he is messing with me!

In that case, I'd say it's a bit different. Considering that you're doing the person a favor by completing the request for nothing in return, they really should be happy that you're doing anything at all. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that it's absolutely forbidden that they ask you to make some small change (though, if it has to do with color, they should probably show you an example instead of asking you to do the same thing over and over again), but they definitely shouldn't expect a masterpiece. However, I believe that if someone's actually paying for your artwork, they should be completely satisfied with it.

Hmmm, it highly depends on how much you are paying right? If you are paying say 100 dollars a piece, I agree. If you are paying for merely 10 dollars, then it's a bit too much to ask, right? That's like going to street stand and asking for service quality of a high class restaurant.

At least if you do art and don't get paid, you still have the art, which is better than what the reverse situation would be? (Not that much better though!)

Um, no seriously no. You forget to count that we artist lost the time we spent on creating those arts! The idea of me spending hours over something I never wanted to draw in the first place, and the person didn't give me a single cent is rebuking. You can't just say we still have the art so it's slightly better. No, it's not! It's the same way as the commissioner wouldn't want to pay for nothing. We don't spend our time for nothing either. I can't speak for everyone, but drawing commissions are hardly something fun. It's a job. And no one likes to work for free.

Moral of story: Nobody likes to get cheated regardless of circumtances.

[jack_norton]

I think the best system is to just use Paypal. As buyer, if you don't complete the job (the art) you can ask moneyback from paypal or freeze the account. That is usually enough in such cases (unless you commissioned LOT of art). I never had problems paying 50% upfront, even if one time an artist was very slow and eventually, even if she finished the task (only 6 months late!) I decided to replace her art in the game (was for Planet Stronghold).
Building up a good reputation (in both sides) is the best you can do. I think I made a good job at that considering I get artists asking if I need work daily, referred from their friend, because they know that if I start a project, I WILL PAY