[SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

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Der Tor
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#46 Post by Der Tor » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:05 am

Oh man... Topagae has really started some heated debate here. I haven't read everything, but I think it's really rather simple. It's obvious that while Topagae intentions might have been good and maybe he really has a great product, but he is unable to win the trust of other developers. And if he is unable to win the trust of developers, how much less would he be able to win the trust of potential customers? (who are ten times more careful)
So it doesn't matter if Topagae's intentions are good or not or if his product works or not... I wouldn't invest in his services because even if his product and intentions are good he is obviously completely unable to secure customer trust, so i will be sure to loose my money one way or the other.

So i think if Topagae really has a good product and really means well, then he should work on his approach and first of all secure the trust of the end user and THEN the trust of programmers and THEN you can ask people to invest in you.

One way you could do this is to first make your product free for programmers and end users. If it really has such a great potential as you claim there will soon be many people using it. This also gives you time to remove all the bugs that might come up. Then once your product has become popular, you can make a deluxe version that costs money or you can still charge money for your hosting services. And then you will find that people trust you much more because they have already learned the value of your free version and will then be happy to spend a few pennies for some additional services.

This is just ONE way you could do it... but you have to mind your approach... you know there are a lot of scammers out there and they always look for a new niche that hasn't been targeted before. But what they all have in common is they talk a lot but even after all that talk they are unable to really show you any specifics. All that they can show you are things that could easily be set up in minutes by anyone (despite their claiming to have been working on the project for years). Any opposition or questions raised that might lay doubt on their legitimacy will either be met with excuses or with blatant personal attacks or will simply be ignored completely but will never be actually addressed in a sincere, logical or satisfying manner. And in the end they will ask for some kind of investment (doesn't have to be money). Then once they have succeed in scamming a few people or once their scheme is exposed they suddenly disappear as fast as they appeared and without a trace and will start targeting the next niche group with a similar scheme under a new name. So while i want to believe you are not one of those bad guys your approach is similar so people might THINK that you are, so i wouldn't wanna make business with you one way or the other unless you change your approach.
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#47 Post by Topagae » Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:02 pm

@Luv

Not posting a private message. That's why they're private messages. You do and say things in a private setting that don't get said in a public one. I consider hate mail any piece of mail where someone accuses me of lying with no evidence, and is fairly easy to disprove.

@Der Tor

You're very correct. I hope I'm getting it across cause I keep saying it, but it bears repeating. I DO need work on my approach, and I AM working on my approach.

No, we're never releasing our source for free, probably ever. It's not that I'm an evil bastard because I won't release source, it's simply that people like PyTom are saints for releasing theirs.
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Re: Please be careful who you give business to.

#48 Post by sabata2 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:10 pm

*edit*
Iiii forgot the spoilers on this forum aren't the collapsing type. Sorry.

Kinougames:
kinougames wrote:Topa responded perfectly civilly to my first few posts and I had no problem with him until he started throwing insults around. (Which oddly enough, his first snippy comment comes right after fortaat's post. Maybe he should have taken a breath and calmed down before throwing other people into his rage.)

Indeed, That's the point I was getting across.

Some scammers are nicer. Other scammers are very harrowing and rush you to go along further into the transaction before giving you the proper details. Even other scammers attempt to garner pity. More scammers besides get angry quickly and then say "well you're the one missing out on this great product that tons of other people are going to invest in" to force your hand (which Topa does several times).

Just wanted to point out you've just excluded all forms of psychologically getting someone to buy even a legit product.
NO ONE sells stuff in Monotone straight-by-the-facts dealings. It's inhuman to act such a way and it puts people off.


Mind you, I never made any of those quoted comments. Reading back, no one associated with this name made any of those comments either. In fact, most of those comments are made by fortaat. ... when most of your angering comments listed there were not made by all three of us.

Never claimed YOU made the initially bad comments, but you certainly didn't let them die. Also, all it takes is one person from a "side" to completely destroy any trust or respect for the "side" as a whole. Because you and Jake defended Fortaat's comments, that put you on his "side" whether you wanted to be there or not. And because he was the original offender that put you on the "offending side", so you were treated that way.

The first comment I made that was in defense of something fortaat said, I explicitly said "fortaat isn't nice", acknowledging the OP's feelings. I also tried to give several pieces of hard and straight advice "do research, fix your site, fix your marketing strategy".

As I touched on above... If someone says "You look ugly, you walk like a question mark, and you look weak." Then someone else comes along and says "Yeah, he's right, if you take care of your acne, fix your posture, and lift some weights, you'll be good." That second someone still insulted you, but attempted to give constructive criticism.
Now have the insults hit deeper and harder than that, but have the second person respond similarly.
The negative connected to your constructive criticism does not overshadow the fact that you just greatly disrespected us.


This post was deserved, well, based on those actions. A smear campaign is not made up of truths, or opinion based on truths.

By that definition, a smear campaign is made of pure opinion. Which is damn near all of what the first post is made of. You believe that all the correlations you've drawn are true. You have no proof to say that we are doing this. And to claim we are, by attempting to show similarities, IS a smear.

Want me to be fine with the topic's purpose? Remove the link to our topic because as it is, you aren't making a general statement to the public, but a direct statement about us.


In that vein: fix the website, put out a working prototype, work on business manner and professionalism, and the product itself (despite putting down the "pretty" that current VN engines use, VISUAL novels are called VISUAL because pretty is what makes them sellable. It's something you need to consider heavily), change your marketing strategy to focus on why your engine is different from existing engines, possibly by adding a lot of extra "pretty" that people can do only with you, research your potential clients and customers, and come back in a few months when this has completely blown over and you have the components to sell, sell, sell.

We don't have the time to do that. We have customers waiting on our product so we can't divert many resources from our main project (which they paid for). So we needed content to appease they as well as show off the engine a bit more. We don't have the man power to do that at the moment, so we came to ask for content from the people here.
What makes you think we now magically have staff to make it all look nice, when we're already spread apart as far as we can go?


Jake
Jake wrote:
Not all entrepreneurs are so reluctant to answer questions about their products.

Nor are they ready to give away every secret about their product. He answered SOME questions, but not all, and now you're treating him as if he's answered nothing.


You have a mostly-working engine, but it doesn't do everything that Topagae claimed, which is why he got himself into trouble. If he'd come into the forum and said "hey, look, we're starting to create this online VN engine so it might be possible to play VNs without downloading stuff on mobile platforms, we think it's going to be pretty cool but it's not finished yet", and then when people asked to see the engine working he was straightforward and showed us, I expect the whole thing would have turned out very differently.

We've already tried that approach here. You took part in that thread. It died INCREDIBLY fast.
For the exact same reason.
I was basically given the task "Pics or it didn't happen" and couldn't provide pictures.
Everyone lost interest and we received NONE of the help we had asked for.
So we changed plans.

Also, EVERY dealer plays up what they sell. Be it an optional upgrade, or something they're going to have soon, they tell people about it to get them to buy it. Car Dealers use it, Computer sellers use it, Software manufacturers use it.
But when we use it it's "Holy hell run away with your money now!"?

And now you're saying "mostly-working"? I seem to recall you made the claim SEVERAL times that we had NOTHING. Playing up the engine bugs, and playing down the actual functionality of it.
"How can anybody trust you when you refuse to show the working engine that you supposedly have"
"Your engine doesn't work..."
"The programmed part of your website is by far the worst bit; it barely works!"
"he still hasn't shown any proof of actually having the technology behind the service he's trying to get people to sign up for"
That's not "mostly-working" description, that's "barely-working" description. You know that the tree and movement functionality work, but because we don't have certain niceties we don't have the core elements of a VN engine, we have something you consistently describe as "barely-working".



I think you'll find that most people who use the internet have received at least one Nigerian scam email, for example. The running theme is making grandiose claims and not providing evidence to back them up when asked.

I don't think Topagae is a scammer, and I never did - but he's doing the same kind of thing. "I have this great thing, and I want you to sign up with me to use it, but I won't tell you what it can do or show you it working, you'll just have to trust me that it exists".

And really, I'll agree that this thread started out a bit more alarmist than necessary, but honestly, trying to paint it as an unwarranted smear campaign is disingenuous. It's far more like a bad-eBay-seller warning thread, which you'll see a lot of on forums where trades often take place. It doesn't matter to the general public whether the bad seller is a scammer, or whether he's just really busy with his day job and taking care of his sick mother and his fifteen adopted ex-stray cats - the result is the same, he doesn't send stuff out and people should avoid him.

And you know the difference between us and those "Nigerian scam emails"? They ask for personal information.
We asked for nothing but content.
A story, some art, that's all.
But now we're after your money? Where if we didn't port your story you wouldn't be selling in the first place? Meaning the deal is: "Go from earning nothing, to earning something." and WE'RE scamming YOU?

You've blown what we were asking for out of ALL proportion.



I can answer this one, because it's something I wrote myself, and you're completely misinterpreting it if you think it's an attack intended to degrade Topagae and his service. If you go back and read the whole post in context - and bear in mind it's the first post I made in the thread - what I'm saying is this:

- In the paragraph immediately preceeding that one, Fortaat is claiming that someone could port Ren'Py to the browser in a month, making your efforts pretty worthless. I responded saying that this simply wasn't true, Ren'Py couldn't be ported to the browser simply at all. If anything, I'm defending Topagae at this point because I don't think it's fair to belittle his service just because Ren'Py is better; Ren'Py doesn't get delivered via browser.

- In the quoted paragraph, I'm saying that it's not even comparable, because they're totally different beasts. It's not saying "your engine is so shit it's not worth my time", it's saying "you're not trying to sell us a 16-wheeler truck, you're trying to sell us an off-road 4x4, so it's beside the point that your vehicle can't hold five tonnes of meat in a refrigerated atmosphere, that's not its purpose". I left off the "...it can drive all kinds of places a 16-wheeler truck can't" because I thought that was pretty obvious, at the time.

I know what you were saying, but you say I'm not reading your post in the whole picture, I say you're not reading your post except in your post's picture.
Immediately after Fortaat's attack you came with a spot that generally says "You claim you can do this, but Ren'Py can do THIS". You made no "But your engine can do this that Ren'Py can't" comment, which apparently you were thinking, and all we read was "Your engine can't do this."
After an attack like Fortaat's, to read "Your engine can't do this.", how can you NOT see it as insulting?

Whole picture of the post the message is different, but whole picture of the thread, and it's even more different.


I tend to have the same view of it as KinouGames: it looks very much like Topagae took offence at Fortaat's blunt delivery and started to view everything anyone else said that wasn't "your service is wonderful" as a personal attack as a result. Then he started getting defensive and rude, which gave Kinou and I the same kind of reaction - one of scepticism.

Then you understand where this problem originated from, but you're still pointing the finger at my boss instead of the person who degraded him and his software.

sabata2 wrote: The second he got defensive, you defended the people he got defensive against. And now, here we are in a topic where you outright say, not four lines into this topic, "avoid this person and his business".
I think you'll find that people are being wary of him because he took offence at things that really shouldn't have taken offence from. Like questions about what his engine does that makes it interesting, and how well it handles certain notorious problems.

If you go into a 16-wheeler forum and advertise your off-road 4x4, you're going to have to expect people to say "so what's the storage capacity", because that's the mentality of 16-wheeler people. And when they ask questions like "so it's an off-roader - how strong are the axles and how good's the suspension?", you should have an answer, because that's a relevant thing when you're trying to sell an off-roader.

If Topagae had said "we're not so worried about storage capacity, we're focussing on off-road" it might have been different, but instead he said "our off-roader is awesome, why don't you make one yourself if you're so great" as if that answered the question. And when asked about specific off-road details, he either ignored the questions or responded with "go take a test drive" and pointed us to something which only went off-road if you were very careful and slow.

Your relation holds no water, as the 4x4 and 16-wheeler comparison have NOTHING in common besides the two of them being cars.
Comparing a Van and a Minivan would have been more appropriate. We aren't trying to sell you a side-scroller engine. This is a Visual novel/datesim engine.
Your questions about all the frills are just that, frilly. The engine WORKS. It's just not as pretty as Ren'Py yet. It's the Minivan to Ren'Pys van.
Same purpose to transport multiple people (run VNs), and while yours has a built in DVD player (all the frills) ours has better mileage (can go more places).

Der Tor
Der Tor wrote:Oh man... Topagae has really started some heated debate here. I haven't read everything, but I think it's really rather simple. It's obvious that while Topagae intentions might have been good and maybe he really has a great product, but he is unable to win the trust of other developers. And if he is unable to win the trust of developers, how much less would he be able to win the trust of potential customers? (who are ten times more careful)
So it doesn't matter if Topagae's intentions are good or not or if his product works or not... I wouldn't invest in his services because even if his product and intentions are good he is obviously completely unable to secure customer trust, so i will be sure to loose my money one way or the other.

So i think if Topagae really has a good product and really means well, then he should work on his approach and first of all secure the trust of the end user and THEN the trust of programmers and THEN you can ask people to invest in you.

One way you could do this is to first make your product free for programmers and end users. If it really has such a great potential as you claim there will soon be many people using it. This also gives you time to remove all the bugs that might come up. Then once your product has become popular, you can make a deluxe version that costs money or you can still charge money for your hosting services. And then you will find that people trust you much more because they have already learned the value of your free version and will then be happy to spend a few pennies for some additional services.

This is just ONE way you could do it... but you have to mind your approach... you know there are a lot of scammers out there and they always look for a new niche that hasn't been targeted before. But what they all have in common is they talk a lot but even after all that talk they are unable to really show you any specifics. All that they can show you are things that could easily be set up in minutes by anyone (despite their claiming to have been working on the project for years). Any opposition or questions raised that might lay doubt on their legitimacy will either be met with excuses or with blatant personal attacks or will simply be ignored completely but will never be actually addressed in a sincere, logical or satisfying manner. And in the end they will ask for some kind of investment (doesn't have to be money). Then once they have succeed in scamming a few people or once their scheme is exposed they suddenly disappear as fast as they appeared and without a trace and will start targeting the next niche group with a similar scheme under a new name. So while i want to believe you are not one of those bad guys your approach is similar so people might THINK that you are, so i wouldn't wanna make business with you one way or the other unless you change your approach.
That "One way" is the way we offered. And I've vouched for the customer's we have won. So unless you're going to discount the people who are "ten times more careful" you have no reason to distrust us outside of PURE distrust.
And the approach was what you see within the first few posts posts of the original thread. He was kind to everyone, thankful to straight forward comments, and was overall someone people wanted to talk to. Then he got insulted and demeaned and everything went pot to hell. It may be his fault he reacted in such a way, but he wasn't the one who started it.

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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#49 Post by papillon » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:08 pm

But now we're after your money? Where if we didn't port your story you wouldn't be selling in the first place? Meaning the deal is: "Go from earning nothing, to earning something." and WE'RE scamming YOU?
I've generally stayed out of this whole crazy affair, but at this point I do have to step in. This statement represents either more of the "playing up the product" that you seem to think is required for selling (it isn't) or is actually delusional.

Anyone on this forum who has a game and wants to sell it can. Several people here already do. They do not need your product in order to sell their games.

If they use RenPy to make a game and sell it, they generally receive the sale price. If they use your product to make a game and sell it, they receive half the sale price (Yes, I know you said that was negotiable, but since that was the initial figure stated, let's work with that.) That's a pretty substantial cut of the profits, especially when compared to 0%.

Does that mean it's a complete ripoff? Not necessarily, not if you really are able to bring the game to a wide range of new markets and/or provide existing traffic. Also, as stated, the terms you're looking for are non-exclusive, so people can still continue to sell their products themselves and receive the full price.

However, acting like you're doing people an enormous favor so how dare they question you? Not going to fly.
Immediately after Fortaat's attack you came with a spot that generally says "You claim you can do this, but Ren'Py can do THIS". You made no "But your engine can do this that Ren'Py can't" comment, which apparently you were thinking, and all we read was "Your engine can't do this."
It's not the job of the people critiquing your product to point out its good sides when they're talking to you. You already know them. And the obvious - that this thing runs on browsers/iphone/whatever, which RenPy does not currently - is obvious and hardly needs restating by every person replying to you.

If someone is writing an impartial review and comparison of the two engines somewhere else, then they should mention its good points and its bad points. But if they are solely interested in evaluating its suitability for their needs, they have no obligation to add random praise.


This community is not entirely welcoming to newcomers who come in with grandiose plans, because this community is particularly prone to people coming in with ideas for the biggest bestest greatest game ever which will abolutely revolutionise the world and be bigger than Japan etc etc etc... and those people then quickly disappearing.

That shouldn't surprise you, really - if you've ever been on game development forums you should have seen a similar ongoing parade of "Volunteers wanted to make new MMORPG! Absolutely guaranteed to make millions!" posts.

I'm really not sure why you guys are still wasting your time posting here, though. You say you've got enough games to port, and it's not likely that you're going to improve your image on this forum by talking. Port your games, fix up your site, launch your service, and come back when it's working. Revenge through excellence is generally the best way to go.

Ren

Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#50 Post by Ren » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:18 pm

And the approach was what you see within the first few posts posts of the original thread. He was kind to everyone, thankful to straight forward comments, and was overall someone people wanted to talk to. Then he got insulted and demeaned and everything went pot to hell. It may be his fault he reacted in such a way, but he wasn't the one who started it.
I still stand by my point that the comments given by Jake, Fortaat and Kinougames would have been useful to you guys, had you been open to discussion.

You cannot claim he was kind to everyone just because he seemingly was thrilled when people had nothing but praise or words of encouragement. The moral ground and ability to communicate of a person are measured when you can see how they react to less than flattering comments. I do not and will never accept that you people keep insulting others by calling them trolls just for asking you legitimate questions. While Fortaat was blunt, he does not deserve to have you guys attempting to shift all the blame on him for this. That you would witness the behaviour Aleema and Topagae had in this thread and still would have the guts to defend him is beyond me, too.

Kinougames hasn't called out on your netiquette, he has called out on you for your business attitude. Fortaat has nothing to do with that. While we're at it, he came back at you guys more than once to explain that he didn't ctiticise you, but your product and the way you seem to be going to handle your business. Nothing gave Topakage the right to discount him, nor Jake or Kinougames as trolls. Even if Fortaat was a troll, the fact that you admit that you treated other users badly because you decided they were on the same side is extremely childish.

You came here over-selling your product; that's maybe something many other businesses do, but guess what: it's frowned upon and it's dishonest. To valid critique your only reply is that the vehicles chosen for an analogy aren't suitable for it. If you're called out on describing your product as something it isn't (as Phoenix Wright, just without the courtroom sequences), your rebuttal is that the transitions are just frills. I told you myself that the branching doesn't seem to work that well, or I wouldn't have found myself in a point in which I had no choices despite having followed the instructions on your forums.


You came here claiming to have more than you did, when called out on it you first insulted the users of this forum repeatedly and then started trying to cry everyone into pity for you. I doubt you're going to ever acknowledge your part in this has been much, much bigger than any of the other parties, but I'm not going to sit here and stay silent when you try to put all the blame on Fortaat. He's not the source of your problem, don't even try to say that.
I'm really not sure why you guys are still wasting your time posting here, though. You say you've got enough games to port, and it's not likely that you're going to improve your image on this forum by talking. Port your games, fix up your site, launch your service, and come back when it's working. Revenge through excellence is generally the best way to go.
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Re: Please be careful who you give business to.

#51 Post by Wintermoon » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:32 pm

Topagae wrote:Indie game companies are startups, they usually can't pay their workers to the point of being a stereotype.
Sorry, that's bullshit. This forum has several indie developers who have been in business for years and who have always paid their subcontractors. I would even go so far as to say that if you haven't released your first game, you aren't an indie developer at all but a wannabe.

Again, there is no shame in being a wannabe, so long as you don't misrepresent yourselves. We were all wannabes once.
Topagae wrote:"We need backing, and support. We asked for it today and yesterday in the form of asking for peoples stories and art that they wanted published."

Where covered:

This was the topic name of the thread, the name of the thread and the entire subject of the post was that I am asking for backing/support from people in this forum in the form of letting me port their content.
The thread says "looking to buy/license complete VN scenarios". Not only does "buy" very much imply up-front payment, but it seems disingenuous to ask for complete scenarios when your own engine isn't even complete yet.
Topagae wrote:What you say I didn't state up front:

You ask for something "we've done", and you expect something big. We have something big, just not right now. If you don't believe us, then say you don't and be on your way.

Where covered:

This requires a little thought, but nothing a reasonable person shouldn't be able to see immediately. Now, the entire post was claiming I had the engine (Something big), and we claim that it is big (The engine is nice!). Those are pretty prevalent in my first post. As for the "Just not right now part" that should be OBVIOUS. If I already had a bunch of great games, I wouldn't need to be asking anyone in the forums for them would I?
It was anything but obvious from your first post that your engine isn't finished yet. In fact, kinougames still doesn't seem to have caught that the engine you're talking about doesn't exist yet.

You offered to port games to your engine. That implies that you have an engine.

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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#52 Post by jack_norton » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:33 pm

papillon wrote: I'm really not sure why you guys are still wasting your time posting here, though. You say you've got enough games to port, and it's not likely that you're going to improve your image on this forum by talking. Port your games, fix up your site, launch your service, and come back when it's working. Revenge through excellence is generally the best way to go.
That's one of the first things I told him. I'm amazed that people have so much free time. The whole amount of texts of the various posts is probably more than one of my visual novels :lol:
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#53 Post by Lekhaka » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:14 pm

Other forums have such heated debates about politics or religion. But independent game developing and small business models? That's a new topic for me :lol:

Yet, this is fun to watch too. *munches popcorn*

I think Papillon and Jack made the most practical suggestion for this whole affair...

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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#54 Post by fortaat » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:20 am

Topagae wrote:Exactly what would I have to do to get this giant flame war to stop?
Use the following gif:

Image



Everyone in this thread, save Lehaka, who happily munches popcorn, should definitely - CHILL THE FUCK DOWN - and remind themselves we're all on the same side.

I don't care enough to give a detailed response to the entire "he said, she said" debate, since the level of internet drama here is way too high, and nothing I or anyone else says could end up being productive.

Now go do some VNs/engine coding, and stop bitching about your hurt feelings (this goes to everyone).
Last edited by fortaat on Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#55 Post by chronoluminaire » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:31 pm

When I saw the first post in Topagae's thread, I thought that looked like a nifty setup, and was considering contacting him about entering a deal with one of my existing Ren'Py games.

When I saw how Topagae reacted in the subsequent discussion, I very quickly reconsidered. Either one of (a) the technical issues (not having the demo or engine that was claimed), or (b) the hot-tempered unbusinesslike way of dealing with questions, would have made me have serious second thoughts. Both of them put together have made me very unlikely to have any dealings with datesim.org unless I see a major turnaround in both those areas.
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#56 Post by Topagae » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:54 pm

Good advice

Image

I feel better already.

Anyhow. I'll say it again. I am truly sorry. I'm the best they got and I'm a hot head. Either way the points are mostly moot. Besides answering lingering questions and concerns like this, sans some change we're not doing anything like this again. We're going to just put a submission form on the site in lieu of asking anybody in a public forum.

We're never putting even EXAMPLE terms up ever again. Individual negotiations have caused every license agreement to be WILDLY different. And at the moment we have commercial work, and a VERY long line of free work ><. Commercial comes first. That's just how it has to be.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of questions anymore so I'll just say, you can feel free to PM me whenever. If you wanna get on the queue you can pm me for that as well. Dunno how long it'll take to get to you, but if you pass QA checks, you're on it.

As for the large amount of you that won't work with us, I can see why you won't. For those of you that are incredibly vocal about it. You win, unless a huge amount changes, I'm never going to come back to your forums and ask such of you guys again. I hope it makes feel better for w/e reasons you have. All it did was make me sad. I came, and I wasn't good enough, and for that I am sorry.
"Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit..."

neowired
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#57 Post by neowired » Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:28 pm

no, just... no
facepalm.jpg

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Nicol Armarfi
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#58 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:08 pm

I WANNA BE THE VERY BEST

LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS

TO CATCH THEM IS MY REAL TEST

TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE

I WILL TRAVEL ACROSS THE LAND

SEARCHING FAR AND WIDE

TEACH POKEMON TO UNDERSTAND

THE POWER THAT'S INSIDE

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL--

IT'S YOU AND ME

I KNOW IT'S MY DESTINY

POKEMON!

OOOOH, YOU'RE MY BEST FRIEND

IN A WORLD WE MUST DEFEND

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL--

OUR HEARTS SO TRUE

OUR COURAGE WILL PULL US THROUGH

YOU TEACH ME AND I'LL TEACH YOU

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

YEEAA.

EVERY CHALLENGE ALONG THE WAY

WITH COURAGE I CAN FACE

I WILL BATTLE EVERYDAY

TO CLAIM MY RIGHTFUL PLACE

COME WITH ME THE TIME IS RIGHT

THERE'S NO BETTER TEAM

ARM IN ARM WE'LL WIN THE FIGHT

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN OUR DREAM

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL--

IT'S YOU AND ME

I KNOW IT'S MY DESTINY

POKEMON!

OOOOH, YOU'RE MY BEST FRIEND

IN A WORLD WE MUST DEFEND

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL--

OUR HEARTS SO TRUE

OUR COURAGE WILL PULL US THROUGH

YOU TEACH ME AND I'LL TEACH YOU

POKEMON!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!

YEEEAA!

sing it with me now!~

Topagae
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#59 Post by Topagae » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:11 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tbUgRP9 ... 1&index=26

I was there for this. And they didn't. Win.
"Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit..."

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Nicol Armarfi
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Re: [SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

#60 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:12 pm

Topagae wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tbUgRP9 ... 1&index=26

I was there for this. And they didn't. Win.
That amazes and depresses me simultaneously :<

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