'True' endings

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
Ametrya
Regular
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:14 pm
Projects: Return to my life
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#16 Post by Ametrya » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:39 pm

It would be kind of silly if all the characters led to the same ending though and everything was explained by each path. That's just not how it always works out in life.
But I never said that, it just seems that including only one complete/true ending kills the idea of choosing your own story.
I'm talking about maybe two or three different paths, with completely different outcomes, and maybe a couple things unrevealed but overall complete enough to make the player feel satisfied.
In fact there are games where one true ending is kind of forced, while a different choice could have lead to similarly satisfying results.

A game that I've played here and seemes to have 2 'true' endings was Frozen Essence
since the Water path revealed the protagonist's backstory and made her accept herself as the death sphere, while the 'True' ending was the one that liberated the protagonist, but she didn't get to know her past and her future seemed equally uncertain[/quote]

User avatar
Aleema
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Organization: happyB
Tumblr: happybackwards
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#17 Post by Aleema » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:46 pm

Ametrya wrote:But I never said that, it just seems that including only one complete/true ending kills the idea of choosing your own story.
The same way giving the main character a name and a personality kills choosing your own story? If you want your own story, then write one. :3

I support canon endings. I just love entertaining "what if ..."s as well.
A good story had a good conclusion. Is it possible to make all branches have a good conclusion? Yeah, of course. But as the author, there's one where you'll feel "this is the way it's supposed to be." The reasoning probably has a lot to do with it explaining or revealing the what you wanted to (not necessarily the most), and putting the main character's story in the best, most complete place at the end. Of course, this can change from player to player. But the author is allowed to pick one themselves.

Ametrya
Regular
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:14 pm
Projects: Return to my life
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#18 Post by Ametrya » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:08 pm

The same way giving the main character a name and a personality kills choosing your own story? If you want your own story, then write one. :3
Choosing, not creating.

And I'm thinking of this in the point of view of the players, not the creator, as they may consider an outcome better or more complete than the 'canon' one, often in settings where it isn't even necessary to call only one certain ending the 'canon' one.
Last edited by Ametrya on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Aleema
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Organization: happyB
Tumblr: happybackwards
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#19 Post by Aleema » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:44 pm

You'll find that most canon endings are for the sake of sequels. There's a reason one needs to be chosen.
KOTOR II or ME2 does this more elegantly by letting the player "correct" the person telling the story of the first game, but if you start the game without having played the first games, there is the canon. That's its true purpose.
And I'm thinking of this in the point of view of the players, not the creator, as they may consider an outcome better or more complete than the 'canon' one, often in settings where it isn't even necessary to call only one certain ending the 'canon' one.
But, honestly ... so? I may think BxC makes a better couple than AxB. But the game actually lets me do both. Why does it matter if the author prefers AxB? Do you wish to change their minds?

Ametrya
Regular
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:14 pm
Projects: Return to my life
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#20 Post by Ametrya » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:00 pm

Well, of course in sequels that makes sense
But, honestly ... so? I may think BxC makes a better couple than AxB. But the game actually lets me do both. Why does it matter if the author prefers AxB? Do you wish to change their minds?
But then why calling it canon anyway (if there's no sequel planned)? And making it a more complete and detailed ending, with cool music and a more complete epilogue, if both endings could get similar treatment?

User avatar
LVUER
King of Lolies
Posts: 4538
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm
Completed: R.S.P
Location: Bandung, West Java, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#21 Post by LVUER » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:08 pm

Then I think there is no canon ending in Mass Effect since ME2 have prepared for all kind of endings in ME1 (even if you haven't played ME1 at all)...
"Double the princesses, quadruple the fun!" - Haken Browning (SRW-OG Endless Frontier)

DeviantArt Account
MoeToMecha Blog (under construction)
Lolicondria Blog (under construction) <- NSFW

User avatar
Aleema
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Organization: happyB
Tumblr: happybackwards
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#22 Post by Aleema » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:20 pm

Ametrya wrote:But then why calling it canon anyway (if there's no sequel planned)? And making it a more complete and detailed ending, with cool music and a more complete epilogue, if both endings could get similar treatment?
Sounds like someone's been burned by the canon-train. =P I can't honestly answer this, because you'd have to ask the creator, but I think the biggest reason is because these are amateur games being worked on as a labor of love. You put more effort into what you love, so the paths you prefer are, unfortunately, going to seem more complete. If indeed you do fall into that fallacy to begin with. But would you agree that it's unrealistic to have the same information and impact for each path? It doesn't have to be strong vs. weak impacts, but if a person goes a different way in life, they're going to learn different things and feel differently at the end of it. It could be deemed impossible to have each ending feel the same, unless you cop out choose to have one ending with just different ways to get there. In fact, I would hate it if all the paths led to the same "THIS is how it's supposed to be" feeling, because then I'd have to ask myself what's the point of anything I did. Is my character acting human? Is the story realistic?

If your qualms are with paths getting unequal treatment in the polish or length, I think that's different. But if it's about ... qualifying what you see as a good ending, I reiterate that having the story completely in your hands is the same as you just opening up a word document and writing it yourself. Fanfiction is passionate hobby for a reason: movies, shows, and books are linear. That's what the authors wanted, and that's how it they envisioned it. Some authors get very offended by fanfiction for some reason of self-entitlement to their characters and beliefs. In my opinion, if we want to reach the emotional impact of movies and such with our VNs, some things have to be out of the control of player. Sometimes characters shouldn't be named. Sometimes there should be a path you're encouraged to take. Sometimes you should let the player know "you took this [non-canon] path, but maybe, just maybe, is there a bit more to know?" Having it all 100% equal is contrived and unrealistic, in my opinion.

If you're feeling cheated by something, that's a problem, but simply marking something as canon is not a problem in my book.
LVUER wrote:Then I think there is no canon ending in Mass Effect since ME2 have prepared for all kind of endings in ME1 (even if you haven't played ME1 at all)...
Directly importing your saved game doesn't make canon even an issue. They know you played the game: here it is. BUT THERE IS A CANON. What happens if you don't import a saved game? Was ME1 Shepard renegade or paragon? Did he save the rachni queen? save the council? etc. That's called canon. It's generic, but the very fact that Shepard is a MAN is considered canon. My Shepard was a woman.

fortaat
Regular
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 1:16 pm
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#23 Post by fortaat » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:29 pm

Aleema wrote:but the very fact that Shepard is a MAN is considered canon. My Shepard was a woman.
Hey, WTF?!
THEY KILLED MY SHEPARD!

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4051
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: that magical diary sequel, that vampire-raising game
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#24 Post by papillon » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:32 pm

(Enh, I suppose I may as well answer the question slightly in terms of Date Warp - spoilered, but still being vague.)
It's not that I think they're the best couple and "should" be together, it was necessary for the story. The only way to save everyone, including the two characters who were dead/missing before the game even started, was to stop the disaster before it happened - and that puts strict limits on what characters are going to be around in the end.
As for why the special musical treatment - because you've unlocked the plot explanation and now know what's going on! :)

User avatar
sayuri
Veteran
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:04 pm
Projects: It's a secret~
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#25 Post by sayuri » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:58 am

I am pro true endings myself. If the game has a core plot and storyline, having equal endings isn't conducive. I mean, if you want to create a game that can stand on plot alone, a true ending is necessary. Also, the true ending ties up loose ends and brings everything together, such as in Date Warp. The other endings were not any less important because of a true ending. Re: Alistair I liked a bunch, but it didn't exactly have a strong plot. Which is fine, but in that case there were no lingering questions. This isn't exactly the same thing, but in romance games I really like a canon pairing. Yes, it does sorta take away from the other characters. Maybe it's the corny part of me that believes in fate and soulmates and all that good stuff, but I like to think there is one pairing in the game universe that is just meant to be. Silly, I know, but that's the kinda closure I want when completing the game. Sure, I could just decide my favorite pairing is canon. I dunno, there is something about having a canon pairing that makes the game complete for me. Maybe it is a sense of continuity, like there is still room for development when you know what happens after the game has finished as if the characters are still alive. Of course, that is the purpose of a true ending as well.

Ametrya
Regular
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:14 pm
Projects: Return to my life
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#26 Post by Ametrya » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:42 pm

Again and again and again, I'm not saying that different endings should be 'equal'
goddamn D:

It's just that, like in real life, different choices can make different people happy, not everyone wants to be a lawyer, medic or engineer and not everyone wants to be forced to pursue the 'tsundere' boy to be able to save the world. It's just about different kinds of happiness.

Of course, for many stories (specially ones with sequels), only one canon ending is necessary, but I feel that it's often a loss for the player when the creator forces one ending to be the absolute only correct way to do things.

User avatar
Pyonkotchi
Veteran
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:19 pm
Projects: Magical Warrior Diamond Heart, unLucky Love, Phantom Thief Asterism
Tumblr: magicalwarriordiamondheart
Deviantart: PastelPyon
itch: Pyonkotchi
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#27 Post by Pyonkotchi » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:32 pm

You are right, Different choices DO make different people happy, and you're in luck, because there ARE other options.

No one is forcing you to go after the "True Ending" and no one is forcing anyone to like the canon. No one said that the True ending is the only way to do things. There is a canon, yes, but they still gave you other options.

I myself prefer canon paths. Simply because I like to know what is the canon. You get to see what the Main character would have normally chosen.
In stories without much plot though it doesn't really matter to me if there is a canon though.

It wouldn't make much sense for an AFGNCAAP to have a canon, since in that situation YOU supposed to be the main character, In that case the main character isn't as much a character as it is an empty shell for the player to step into.

but in stories where the main character has a developed personality, hobbies, interests, flaws, and quirks, it kinda makes more sense for that kind of character to have a canon ending, YOU aren't the character in the situation, instead, you are seeing through the characters eyes, He or She may have a little bit of trouble making decisions by himself but even still.
Image

User avatar
MaiMai
Yandere
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:04 pm
Completed: [Phase Shift]
Projects: [ None ]
Organization: Paper Stars
Tumblr: maiscribbles
Deviantart: maiscribble
Location: USA, Southern California
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#28 Post by MaiMai » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:53 pm

Ametrya wrote: Of course, for many stories (specially ones with sequels), only one canon ending is necessary, but I feel that it's often a loss for the player when the creator forces one ending to be the absolute only correct way to do things.
And is that necessarily a bad thing? I mean, maybe I'm just jaded, but like Pyonkotchi says, you don't have to like it, but a continuation in a sequel based off a canon ending serves as clarification allowing an expanding story (other people have mentioned that in this thread already really).

Or make everything ambiguous like Kinoko Nasu and his spinoffs for Tsukihime. Try wrapping your head around THAT canon. (Everyone is pretty much alive and happy in the Melty Blood series, but to hell if anyone knows if that's the actual way things turned out since Tsukihime endings are full of bittersweet and sad endings.)
Image COMMISSIONS AVAILABLE (check Tumblr sidebar)

User avatar
kinougames
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:37 pm
Projects: Working on ミツマタ [Mitsumata (c)].
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#29 Post by kinougames » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:55 pm

Ametrya wrote:Again and again and again, I'm not saying that different endings should be 'equal'
goddamn D:

It's just that, like in real life, different choices can make different people happy, not everyone wants to be a lawyer, medic or engineer and not everyone wants to be forced to pursue the 'tsundere' boy to be able to save the world. It's just about different kinds of happiness.

Of course, for many stories (specially ones with sequels), only one canon ending is necessary, but I feel that it's often a loss for the player when the creator forces one ending to be the absolute only correct way to do things.
Most games have more than one ending, and usually they're something that can make someone happy.

Correct is a state of mind. It seems your problem is a lot more that the "non-canon" endings don't make YOU happy, so YOU feel as if they're not "correct".
Check out the new interactive media project, Mitsumata(c). Follow 8 colorful characters in a story full of drama, horror, all sexualities and exciting gameplay~!

Development blog's up! Visit!

Ramidel
Regular
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:22 am
Contact:

Re: 'True' endings

#30 Post by Ramidel » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:25 pm

Personally, I don't mind. If there's going to be a sequel, then obviously the first game has to have ended in some way (and Mass Effect and Elven Relations are rare jewels in that the endings continue into the sequel); if there isn't, then I don't care what happens "canonically" because I'm too busy smiling at the ending I managed to win for myself.

And MaiMai: In the Nasuverse, there's a simple rule for which ending is canon: All of them are. Always.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users