Unique Opportunity - A Call to Developers

[boki46]

I honestly think that Mikan's response to these works was not healthy criticism, and I'm sorry, but I disagree with you Jake. Ripples shows a lot of qualities, and for a short work of its kind, it is rather inspiring. I would even argue that Sake-Bento's, and Deji's work has a unique western touch, that you cannot find in Japanese visual novels. While these works may not be on the level of the most well regarded titles in the genre, it wouldn't surprise me if Sakevisual or Winter Wolves end up creating a landmark visual novel one of these days.

As a writer myself, I recognise the quality of the characters and dialogue in Sake-Bento's writing.

As for this thread, I think it deserves a lock-down. There's too much unnecessary flame based on jealousy and what-nots going around here - it's obvious. vNovel posted what they had to say, now let's put an end to this meaningless babbling.

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[Deji]

The problem here seems to be directed towards the selection of works vnovel has on display than the service they are able to provide.
I personally think those are completely independent issues, unless your problem is to have your work associated with other works you don't particularly like for any reason. It'd be comparable to a case where a writer wouldn't want to be published by, idk... the same publisher that published the Twilight books because they hate them, regardless of the service the publishing house is able to provide.

Now, like Jake pointed out, the service only seems to be able to port simple branch stories, and no other 'interesting bits', such as minigames, seem to be able to be included in the ipad - iphone versions. It'd be good to point that out on the first post, so people know from the beginning what vnovel porting capabilities are, even without having to go and take a look at the online demos.


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About the rather off-topic critique to the quality of the art, there are plenty of truly good artists out there and it's sad that none of them are affordable for indies at the moment and/or are not interested on working on EVNs for any reason.

I would really like to see a VN with an art quality that can be appreciated by people outside the community, especially by people knowledgeable about art, but I guess we'll have to wait for that to happen.
However, I don't think we should stop making an effort (even if the results are only average for now) just because we're not good enough just yet; I'm against the "hide from the rest of the world until you're a master and only then show what you're able to do" way of thinking.

In regards to the general critique to my own work, yes, I AM average

[Lekhaka]

There is no method to go back to a previous page you've read?

[Der Tor]

I don't quite get it and i have to admit i haven't read through every post in thread... but anyway, what exactly is your target audience and how exactly would you market the games toward that audience?

[boki46]

In regards to the general critique to my own work, yes, I AM average

Don't be so modest Deji, I think your art is excellent, and it will only get better if you keep working at it. ^_^

[fortaat]

In case someone missed:

It's just that I've built this game engine, and I'm wondering if we could put it to use, by turning an assembled visual novel into a working video game - the engine was created for this purpose.

http://vndb.org/t416

Reading that thread I see this is not the first time you get insulted by legitimate questions on the nature of your engine \ service.
Just so you know, I have nothing against you, and I'm interested in your product, even if not in the current offer.
However, you do have competitors, and I won't handle a professional product to someone who can't act professionally.

[Jake]

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you Jake. Ripples shows a lot of qualities, and for a short work of its kind, it is rather inspiring. I would even argue that Sake-Bento's, and Deji's work has a unique western touch, that you cannot find in Japanese visual novels. While these works may not be on the level of the most well regarded titles in the genre, it wouldn't surprise me if Sakevisual or Winter Wolves end up creating a landmark visual novel one of these days.

It seems to me that you don't disagree with me, you're just completely missing the point.

I wasn't discussing whether - say - Ripples was any good. I didn't say it wasn't, and I was very careful not to say anything either way, because my opinion on whether it's any good or not is completely irrelevant. The important part of my post was that reacting the way you guys did to the criticism of Ripples only looks bad.

All Mikan was saying before you guys goaded her into being more and more scathing was that the demos weren't particularly impressive. The impressive thing is that you have an engine that runs on the web and on iOS, but that's about it; there's nothing else that your engine has been demonstrated doing that other engines can't do (including at least one other - NovelStream - that shares at least part of your USP), so it would be to your benefit to pick something that looks really spectacular for a demo to impress people with that instead. The Blade people realised this years ago, with their cool demo of the detective on a train (IIRC). Their engine didn't do anything Ren'Py didn't do, but they had a cool demo and Ren'Py didn't, so they got a lot of people interested in their engine.

It's totally irrelevant whether or not Ripples is any good or whether the people who made it will grow and become fantastic creators, or whether they'll create a landmark VN one day; the point is that if your engine (working on the same assumption as Fortaat) does anything other than simple branching storylines, they're not very good demos of your engine.

And frankly, dismissing criticism as "obvious jealousy" is the sort of thing I expect from an egotistical teenager, not a business. You have the best-looking of the VN-on-the-web-and-the-iPhone engines, don't squander your position by acting like an arse to your potential business partners. Mikan - for example - might not have finished a VN yet, but she's drawn several comics and has been making progress on a VN, including a well-received demo a little while ago which unfortunately she seems to have taken down. It's not like she's just some random nobody who's never produced anything and never will.




As to the other half of the conversation:

About the rather off-topic critique to the quality of the art, there are plenty of truly good artists out there and it's sad that none of them are affordable for indies at the moment and/or are not interested on working on EVNs for any reason.

I hope Deji realises that I have a decent amount of respect for her - but my concern is related to the last bit of this sentence: there's every chance that some of the awesome artists out there who aren't working in EVNs aren't working in EVNs because they take a look at the stuff the EVN community exalts and don't think they'd fit in.

[boki46]

Reading that thread I see this is not the first time you get insulted by legitimate questions on the nature of your engine \ service.
Just so you know, I have nothing against you, and I'm interested in your product, even if not in the current offer.
However, you do have competitors, and I won't handle a professional product to someone who can't act professionally.

vNovel Interactive is a professional company, and I am just an aspiring writer, who happens to like visual novels. My opinions do not represent vNovel's in any way.

[sake-bento]

As inquiring minds likely want to know, here's a brief rundown of my experience with this engine:

I only know about the online player, as the iPhone version of Ripples was ported by dstarsboy.

Compatibility - Runs like a charm on Firefox, Chrome and most other modern browsers. No IE compatibility yet, but I'm told it's on the way with IE's upgrades.

Presentation - Allows use of a custom font, but no custom text box or menus. Text fades from one line to the next rather that being "typed" in like in Ren'py. I actually like it. It allows for a breath between lines without being annoying to people who read quickly. Supports basic animation of sprites like sliding in and out and moving around the screen.

Sound - Supports music, sound effects, and voice. No volume adjustment available. Some people have reported that the voice tracks sometimes loop.

Interaction - Only one auto-save slot. Not a big deal for a shorter game, but might be an issue with a longer VN. I know one person who played The Flower Shop on the iPhone was wishing for more save slots so that he could go back and try out different options without restarting the game entirely. Space bar forwards you through the text in the online version.

Overall Engine - It's simple, but it works smoothly. Only allows for branching storyline games without minigames, a scheduler, or any of the customization that Ren'py affords, but it gets the job done.

vNovel - Working with them went pretty smoothly. They allowed me to negotiate my own terms, and they didn't charge anything for porting Ripples. Response to bug reports and other issues has been prompt.

Summary - I wouldn't mind doing business with them again, provided that I can make something that works with the engine. RE:A++ and Jisei are both too complicated to be compatible. Ripples has gotten a lot of extra exposure thanks to the online version, though, and I've had two people approach me so far asking how to make VNs because they played Ripples online and were inspired to create their own VNs.

[PyTom]

I've been following vNovel for a while now. Here are my thoughts, from a technical outsider perspective:

Downloadable games are important, and I don't see any way in which vNovel attempts to solve this problem. By porting games from other engines, the problem is reduced - but it would come up again if original games are made. The existence of an iPhone version means it probably would be fairly easy to make a standalone version of the editor.

I like the way vNovel has behaved, insofar as they seem to have a reasonable sense of where they fit. They don't seem to be making grandiose claims that are unsupported by facts. They're negotiating with game-makers directly. I don't know what will happen if/when they leave stealth mode, but for now they seem reasonable. (I don't know the terms of any of the deals, apart form what sake-bento just mentioned.) Certainly, they seem to have a degree of modesty.

A big problem with their engine is that it loads all images before the game starts. That leads to long load times, and it's also probably why the vNovel games are so tiny compared to their originals. On the plus side, it does solve the problem with disconnected play, except maybe for saving.

I'm curious as to what RE:A++ and Jiesei are doing that would prevent them from being ported, at least in the same way that The Flower Shop was. (With minigame removal and so on.)

[Deji]

It's a good idea to work on adapting your style, but your style works well for the genre in which it sits, which I'd say would be something along the lines of Cardcaptor Sakura, or Sailormoon, or stories like that.

Magical Girls only? Not even cliche high school dating sim moeblobs or one of those sickeningly cute JRPGs? Ouch xD
Well, at least in the future I hope to be able to be perceived as an artist able to do more than that ^^;

[kinougames]

xD Haha, I didn't mean just magical girls, so much as stories that are happy and you know before the ending that it'll be a good one. xD

D: MOEBLOBS YYYYYYY

[Deji]

xD Haha, I didn't mean just magical girls, so much as stories that are happy and you know before the ending that it'll be a good one. xD

D: MOEBLOBS YYYYYYY

Phew xD
You can always go CLAMP and kill everybody in the end, though 8D.

I was kidding with the moeblobs, btw >>;... well, if somebody hires me to do that i may draw them >>;....

[kinougames]

http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =16&t=8212

This got moved here.

[sake-bento]

I'm curious as to what RE:A++ and Jiesei are doing that would prevent them from being ported, at least in the same way that The Flower Shop was. (With minigame removal and so on.)

For RE:A++, the lack of customization is the biggest issue. While the "IRL" bits would survive with the default text box, the portions inside the fake game need to look like they're inside a fake game. The item mall, while not necessary, does play a fairly important part in the story and the player would lose a lot of important scenes and CGs without it. It's also impossible to view the stats at any time.

For Jisei, the game requires menu loops. Something akin to:

Code: Select all

while:
   menu:
       "Are you the killer!?":
            protag "Are you the killer!?"
            kizaki "Of course not!"
       "Are you a girl?":
            protag "Are you a girl?"
            kizaki "Everyone seems to think so..."
       "End conversation.":
            protag "I'm done asking you questions."
            jump coffeeshop

This engine doesn't seem to support it. At least, I don't think it does, since I wrote one in The Flower Shop, and it was rewritten as a linear conversation. Also, no "view notes" option, which is important for mystery solving.