tell me why you didn't buy Vera Blanc :)

[Elenakiara]

I've used that site several times in the past, but had forgot about it

Yeahhh! :O That's where I discovered VNs for the first time when I tried out Heileen! :3 <3

[mugenjohncel]

OK... this might surprise you a bit but I'm actually one of your customers. I purchased bionic hearts through a trusted third party (basically, she purchased it on my behalf since I still am kinda wary about my personal details being leaked... and I got a lot to lose and some explaining to do if people close to me found out I'm into such hobbies... but enough of that)

Anyway, reason I not only did not purchase but avoided it like the plague is well... the uber-westernized feel to it. The drawing style is disturbingly similar to my early drawing style when I was still "capable" of drawing and reminded me of the horrible days where I draw to make ends meets after being disowned by my family instead of drawing for fun. Second, I was not really comfortable with the way the whole game is presented in this medium... I was expecting a VN or at least some semblance to a VN since I wanted a VN but all I got is an interactive comic book that screams MACROMEDIA FLASH (yes, I said Macromedia, not Adobe). Though this is probably just me and my biased me but yes... it looked more like a western comic book drawn by a starving artist on his 3rd year in college under a really tight budget. It looked so unpolished... and really REALLY rough (Again, this is my biased opinion)...

And no... it's not like I hate all western feel. There are cases where Western Style will be suitable like well... Comics. But on a OELVN medium, after playing several VN's and OELVN's... I was (err... how do I say this in english?) expecting to see some semblance to the standard VN look and feel and VB not only blew away all my expectations... it actually crumpled, stomped, throw in the waste bin, throw the wastebin out of the window, go down all the way, pick up the thrown wastebin and throw it again.

BH was an exception... even though the way the girls were drawn was manly and a mix between western and eastern style with western taking a large chunk... (yes, they do look like guys) it was presented in a way that makes you feel some semblance to a VN (which is what I'm after in the first place) making me glued to my seat after this man chick cyborg busted into your house... not to mention my curiosity on how you do things with Ren'py...

"POOF" (Disappears)

Edit: Oh and... don't rely too much on the people who said the art is cool. No it's not. It's probably the single biggest TURN-OFF... yes I may be nothing but a small fraction of the lot whose preferences is slightly leaning towards the "I was expecting a VN, MOE, CUTE GIRLS and GLORIOUS NIPPON DIALOGUE BOXES feel" but this fraction is the one that has the $$$!!!

I know the Japanese MOE-MOE industry had a problem with this.... Fans expecting to see MOE, Publisher Publishes MOE to cater to demands, Profit, Repeat Cycle... no innovation or something refreshing but don't you think it makes business sense to cater to what the "fans" wanted to see?... I know this is kinda bad for the industry as a whole and in the long run might kill it (nah... not likely) but what the heck...

Edit 2:
Suggestion:
Why not make the next episode the way you wanted except use the drawing style similar to Heileen... it's clean and smooth... and somewhat appealing....

[jack_norton]

Some points:
1) I actually thought about turning VB in manga style. Of course not cute-style like Deji, but more Heileen or Planet Stronghold style. This could still happen indeed.
2) Another idea I had was to still use comic art but at higher resolution. I'm aware that most of VB images have low quality - not low quality artwork (the artists were amazing) but since I filled the pages with panel to pay less money overal (heh) the resulting images were of lower quality. Is like if you draw something very small and scan it and try to display on screen. A solution would be to use very high res, and not have fixed panels anymore, so use sprites over fixed background like a normal VN, and have some panels for the cutscenes Quartett-style

I'll see, for now I paused and I'll do this fantasy RPG with comic style since I think is somewhat "safer". I think manga/anime works better with the same segment that mostly buy games (Vn/dating sims/etc) while comic is more realism/adult, so people that still buy games but of different kind (for exeample casual HOG players are mostly 50+ years old). I think RPG are played by young but also older people (by older I even just mean 35+ years, like me!).

[Auro-Cyanide]

The art style doesn't bother me at all. I am always open to new use of styles. I think it is very important to experiment with a medium as new as VNs. Personally I am sick of seeing generic anime styles, people seem to get stuck in a rut with it. The style should add something to the story not just be there by default. I want to see some personality and uniqueness in the work not something that appears to be mass produced.

Have you thought about expanding the comic idea? Using coloured screen tones for example (this may be rather time consuming to apply though) The style should say something about the story though. Like how Dusk Hotel had that lovely sketchy noire look.

As for why I didn't buy it... I don't feel it is at all aimed at females and me being female excludes me from the target audience. The blonde with the big breasts, no. Females have put up with this a lot in the gaming world and it frustrates us. We still can and do play games that are obviously male targeted, but the use of females can be very... frustrating. Plus they tend to be poorly written. If you want females to look upon your game with favour, you should do more then stick in some male fan-service. You should make sure your females are strong characters. Males like boobs, we get it, but there is more then one ways for a female to be sexy then to just be half naked surely! I'm not saying that you can't make these games with female fan-service, men will probably love them, but you can't expect many females to feel the same. I feel the same about empty male fan-service too.

[jack_norton]

Males like boobs, we get it, but there is more then one ways for a female to be sexy then to just be half naked surely!

hahaha LOL I laughed too much reading that sentence

Yes I get your point, and now I understand better. I thought the problem was showing a sexy girl, but in reality what seems to piss most people off is the combo sexy girl+weak character. Which is a bit funny because in the story itself Vera is not weak at all - well ,except from running from a werewolf, but I guess that's what most people would do, male or females!! but indeed from a quick look at the title screen I must admit that that's exactly the impression I'd have had to!

In the next (and probably last) comic game I'm thinking to have still a sexy heroine but - definitely - not weak at all. I mean, since is fantasy setting I think is more acceptable to have an amazon wear light armor (see Dragon Age or other gazillion fantasy games).

[Auro-Cyanide]

I thought the problem was showing a sexy girl, but in reality what seems to piss most people off is the combo sexy girl+weak character.

This is true, the writing of the character has just as much to do with it as the images used. We females are a snarly bunch. Have you ever been around us when we spot the girls that wear their dresses to short and have their boobs almost falling out? It isn't pretty at the best of times. And that is when a female is using here own body like that. When a male does it, it seems a bit shallow for us and we may not think to look much into her character.

It isn't that we don't ever want to see images of half-naked women. Females are pretty open with sexuality and nudity, especially of our own sex. We are not going to avoid it like the plague (at least I won't). It has a lot more to do with placement and timing. If the female is always going around either half-naked or in clothes made out of latex, it is too obvious to us what it is. But if it is a well placed moment that feels natural in the story (her in a dress, her openly pushing a sexual encounter, even a shower scene could work) then we will be fine with it. It is a difficult thing to explain. It should empower the female rather then take something away from her. We know males like the female form. Most of us rely on that fact to help us find a partner. We take pride in it and work hard at it. But they are our bodies, not a tool.

As for characterisation, strong female cookie-cutter is just as bad as weak female cookie-cutter. Game makers seem to be under the impression that giving a female a bad attitude and the ability to fight makes her strong. But they tend to lack depth. And they still get rescued by the hero. My best advice, design her to be real. What attracts you to females in real life in terms of personality? Not many of us go around with guns or have a quick come-back for every situation. But you have probably meet strong females. Why?

P.S. Sorry for the rant. It is something I have really thought about too much.

[jack_norton]

Well in my story is fantasy so making her "real" might be a problem It will have depth though, and I'll try my best of course. Just know that is not easy to make at all. For example I loved almost all the females character of Dragon Age, Morrigan in particular, but in practice she was a cold-hearted bastard always going around half-naked

[Auro-Cyanide]

Oh yes, I would expect it to be hard. If it was easy then everyone would already do it. And it does come kind of secondary to stuff like gameplay and graphics. It is more polish than anything else.

I don't mean real as in real life, more real as in three dimensional. Her personality needs to be able to stand with what we know and understand in real life. Strengths and weaknesses, fears and hopes, goals and ambitions.

Bioware's females are an... exception. Even when the females are being pretty obvious eye candy (Morrigan and Miranda) they have extremely well written personalities. Also, because of the type of game, they wouldn't think twice about dumping you on your butt if you annoyed them. Bioware has also pleasantly surprised me with female character design, I didn't see Jack coming at all. They push limitations and they have earned a pretty strong female following. The males are similar. I have read stories where the designers have struggled with making female love interest so they went and actually asked females. It makes a lot of difference, at least to me.

[LondonIvy]

For the record, I never bought Vera Blanc because:

a.) I'm short on cash.
b.) I love comic style art, but this art is a little rough.
c.) The genre mashups don't appeal to me.

Bionic Heart was great and probably my favorite game you've done. It managed to intrique me until the end. Heileen didn't for a variety of reasons (mostly to do with the story and characters). However, if you do a fantasy game with a tighter style of comic art, I would buy it so quickly. Also, I'm a straight female and I don't don't RAEG every time I see a sexy female in video games. Others feel differently. I'm fine so long as they kick ass, especially if she's a Red Sonja-style girl. Of course, I don't necessarily IDENTIFY with fanservice/sexy female characters, but they don't anger me. Include sexy chicks and dudes and you'll make everyone happy. Just don't overdo the fanservice for either sex. Story should always have focus unless you're intentionally going for a fanservice game (in which case your target audience is probably not this forum). Matter of fact, if you make her sexiness a part of the story and give her a reason to be sexy, then you can actually give the character a lot of depth. That's the route I take a lot of times in games I write.

I prefer Western style art, for the record. I appreciate anime art and recognize that it can be quite good, but I think people overstate it's appeal. Sometimes I think anime-style art is so prevelant simply because it's such an accessible style. Yes, people who MASTER it are VERY talented artists, but it's easier to start drawing anime than other styles, which is why so many beginners use it. This is NOT knocking the anime style. I'm NOT saying it can't be beautiful and good in it's own right or that people who master it are not talented and don't work very hard. I'm just saying it's slightly more accessible.

Matter of fact, rather than go the fifties comic art style you've done for Vera Blanc, I'd like for you to go for a style more along the lines of JH Williams work on Batwoman (these pictures in particular http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2009 ... -cv857.jpg , http://www.firstcomicsnews.com/wp-conte ... oman-0.jpg). Yes, it's hard to find good Western-style artists, but I think it would be worth it. Just my two cents.

[jack_norton]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes those things I'll address in my experiment are b-c (about a, I can't do much, sorry )
I'll have less rough pictures, and the main character will be a sort of Red Sonja indeed. The interesting (at least I think) thing about the game is that the story will be told by a servant PoV (male or female, choosen by the player) that follows the main character, the amazon princess, in a sort of journey.
There will be more secondary characters, and while the RPG part will probably be much lighter than Planet Stronghold (no inventory for example but only skills / stats assignment) it should still be interesting because battles should have some cinematic scenes in them.

[bowling pin]

I didn't buy it because I didn't know that it existed until now. I haven't bought it yet because I haven't checked out the demo yet.

[LondonIvy]

So you play as the sidekick to a more powerful character? That has a lot of potential. At first I assumed I was going to be PLAYING the Red Sonja character, however, it seems I'm wrong. Also, I'm a sucker for Amazon princesses (love Xena and Wonder Woman). Whenever this starts development I am so there.

Also, being able to select your gender is a nice addition.

[jack_norton]

Yes, you'll be a servant (because if you're male, amazons don't like men= enslaved) and if you're female you're an elf, so while you're a woman still a foreign race, so enslaved again (this is my personal vision of the amazons of course!). I thought was nice for a change to be an observer and not the main character. I mean you'll be able to take decisions in the game (obviously) but in some cases the MC will act on her will and you'll have to agree/disagree with her or even fix her mistakes.
I'm also planning to have a sort of karma system so based on your view of her actions you go on good/evil side, a bit like some bioware games The game will also feature lots of characters, 11 of them you can get in your party and then 6 enemy characters.

[okonomiyaki]

I agree with the people saying the art mixed with the VN style. I'm sure you could sell the style in other game genres, like suspense or mystery or superheroes with some kind of action element in it, but VN fans and anime fans are nearly synonymous for a reason, and I think that not assuming them to be in games that you'd like people to buy is probably why it didn't sell too well.

[luminarious]

Intrigued by this thread, I checked out the demo. I applaud the effort of using a different art style, but I believe the execution is rather rough visually. It feels like a beta product. More specifically, in an unordered list:

• Zooming comic panels doesn't work, the difference in lineweight is just too jarring.
• Unzoomed lines feel too soft or blurry anyway, I wish the artist had done these in vector instead of felt-tip.
• The heavy use of vertical panels feels like a huge waste of space, given the 800*600 format is small already.
• The spacing of interface elements feels pretty random, most things are too close to the edge. The game menu boxes have no vertical padding at all for example.
• Speech font probably looks better in print than on screen, some letter combinations run into each other, reducing readability.
• Cursor appearance is.. like from another game by accident.
• For a comic book, the front page is like the compressed awesomejuice poster of the entire content. This main menu looks like a bubblegum sticker.

But these are not the reasons I didn't buy the game. I just don't have the time or the money for it right now, as a full time student working on several hobby projects..