Regarding "The Controversy"

[Mirage]

^ Maybe it's culture difference. In my country, where my race is minority, we are scared of what the government would do to us (because they never like us). That's why I learned not to speak my mind (exception will be internet, when I sometimes talk without thinking, and get into trouble lol...) If I said things out loud in my country, I might not be alive now. So we all adapt the surrounding by being nice, quiet, and in general avoid conflict as much as we can.

In US (I lived there for 7 years), this is very different, where people are a lot more liberal and outspoken. To be honest, I'm envious of you guys. =w=;

[pondrthis]

The only solution would be not to be dicks to each other.

Ain't that the truth.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I agree with this statement. However, I further think that in the truly free world, everyone has a right to TRY to censor others.

Of course. The right of freedom of thought goes for both sides. That is why it is a great thing. Not so much to try and censor things, but to express an opinion against someone else's opinion. Both parties are protected to say what they will. People shouldn't just have to parrot socially accepted norms. We want people to think for themselves, to bring their experiences to the table. Whether good or bad, positive or negative, the very existence of different opinions is what makes us think and grow. How otherwise would events such as suffrage for women have occurred?

There's a huge amount of difference between someone telling you that they're offended by your statement and someone locking you up and beating you for your statement.

I respect the right for people to get offended and to express that offence. That is the point of the right. However, they can not expect the other party to change their opinion just because they said so. They can try to convince the other party through debate or argument, but they can not force the other party to accept their version of the world. That is against the right of freedom. The right of freedom is fair for both sides if it is applied equally. It is only when people partially apply it that you get problems.

^ Maybe it's culture difference. In my country, where my race is minority, we are scared of what the government would do to us (because they never like us). That's why I learned not to speak my mind (exception will be internet, when I sometimes talk without thinking, and get into trouble lol...) If I said things out loud in my country, I might not be alive now. So we all adapt the surrounding by being nice, quiet, and in general avoid conflict as much as we can.

In US (I lived there for 7 years), this is very different, where people are a lot more liberal and outspoken. To be honest, I'm envious of you guys. =w=;

Exactly! That is why these rights are important, why they are something worth protecting and not something to take for granted. Those of us who freely enjoy them are truly lucky. The rights of freedom are a goal for all humans to reach for, so that all of us can be free thinking individuals and for everyone to respect those same rights for everyone else.

[pondrthis]

I love you AuCN. You're able to see through the squabbles and apply freedom to a higher level of responsibility.

The only place I might diverge from (or rather, clarify?) your opinion is where you state that others cannot force a party to accept their version of the world. I would argue that in a free society, the arbiters chosen by majority rule (i.e. government) can and do force their "version of the world" on the people. However, no one can force their ideals onto another's ideals. Each person's desires are free to be held and shared with others.

And the great part about free society is the ability to realize your desires by pushing your opinion into becoming the majority. Once it's a belief of the majority, it becomes law, and people must abide by it. (Of course, they're still free to disagree with it and push for reform!)

[nope]

Damn it, I'm a god among people who have nothing better things to do with their time.
I knew we had a similar discussion about minorities a couple of months ago, that run exactly like this one.

http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 1&start=30

It has the same inflammatory ingredients, and some people did the exact same nonsense.
Main difference - Jake was the responsible adult. He actually used some of that magical reason, which prevented the thread going fubar.
Oh Jake, where art thou?


Lesson to be learned - keep a cool head, respect the other side, and use some bloody reason.
Also, this kind of discussions are a natural part of forums. The easiest way deal with them is to let the users reach the logical conclusion.

----
No, seriously, where is the guy?

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Ironically, I think South Park said this best in one of their episodes.

Everyone visits the Museum of Tolerance, and it is pointed out that it isn't the Museum of Acceptance. We don't have to accept other people's points of view, we only have to tolerate them.

That is the mistake I think a lot of people make. A lot of movements or groups try and get society as a whole to accept their views and truths, when really that is no better than society trying to force those groups to accept society's views and truths. The best you can hope for on either side without being unfair is tolerance. Each side acknowledging that the other side has a right to exist and not be beat on the head with tire irons and move on. No one has to like everyone. That is a tyrannical idea in its own right. We just have to tolerate.

[Midnighticequeen]

Just making sure, I said joking about rape is mildly offensive to me, not rape itself (???).

I agree with everything you said, except the part where you assumed feminists are necessarily women.
However, as you can see using the search button, people do joke about it.
We can:
1. Start a flame-war (which is what happened in the original thread).
2. Assume they have a black sense of humor and explain to them calmly why rape is not a subject for jokes (assume the other side meant no wrong, which didn't happen in the original thread).

That said, I understand why some people could joke about it, in the same way I could joke about murdering someone who annoyed me (which some people might find very offensive).
What's important to remember is that although you might find that offensive, others lead a different life, and simply can't see it. They aren't necessarily woman-haters/homophobes, they simply have different sensitives.
Accusing them of the former is the easiest way to start a fruitless flame-war, which is why you should always assume *assume the other side meant no wrong*.

@nope You would have to say and do a lot of bad things before I'd think you were an evil(:twisted:) person, despite how I may come across in my previous post, so I apologize if I made you feel that way. I am not a confrontational person and I hate flame wars, but I felt that if I just let that comment sit, it would be the same as agreeing with it. I'm sorry for anyone who thought I was trying to start something. Forgive me because I am not perfect.

(By the way, I don't advocate joking about rape or race. It's just a bad idea for so many reasons. And yes, some topics clearly do have more of a likelihood to offend than others. I'm not saying rape = colorblindness = pizza on the sensitivity scale. This is all just food for thought and devil's advocate-playing. And I don't mean to direct the above post "at" you, Midnighticequeen. Your post just made my mind go into overdrive)

Oops. Hope that was a good thing. Though it got me wondering about when people started making fun of things people take seriously. I know that some people started doing that to make others lighten up about certain subjects, but has some jokes gone to far. Some peoples version of being 'funny' just disgust me, but then again this could be all me a matter of personal taste.

I love you AuCN. You're able to see through the squabbles and apply freedom to a higher level of responsibility.

Ditto

[Kittylove]

No, seriously, where is the guy?

He's probably out there finishing his game Or at least I hope he's finishing it off.

Everyone visits the Museum of Tolerance, and it is pointed out that it isn't the Museum of Acceptance. We don't have to accept other people's points of view, we only have to tolerate them.

Excellent words to be shared everywhere

^ Maybe it's culture difference. In my country, where my race is minority, we are scared of what the government would do to us (because they never like us). That's why I learned not to speak my mind (exception will be internet, when I sometimes talk without thinking, and get into trouble lol...) If I said things out loud in my country, I might not be alive now. So we all adapt the surrounding by being nice, quiet, and in general avoid conflict as much as we can.

In US (I lived there for 7 years), this is very different, where people are a lot more liberal and outspoken. To be honest, I'm envious of you guys. =w=;

I think that because of this reason we should also use are freedom wisely and not just because we can. Yes, some of us got the freedom to say what we want, but do we always have the right too? Is it something we are using to the best of our ability or are we just abusing it because we can? I'm one of those people who think our freedoms should be used with care and I don't try to say everything I want, just because I can. Sometimes saying things just because you can, can lead to people getting hurt.

If you support people's right to say offensive things you're going to also have to support the right of everyone else to be offended and tell them that they SHOULD apologise, so long as it is "telling them" and not "with a tire iron".

I completely agree with you. Hehe...I just love it when you post.

[sake-bento]

Oh Jake, where art thou?

Enjoying his time not stepping around flamewars, I'd wager.
Also, finishing this really fun VN: http://www.eviscerate.net/page/tristan-and-iseult

That aside, I'm very grateful that this discussion was handled maturely. We're inevitably going to have a plethora of lives and opinions that span the spectrum, and I'm happy that you've managed to resolve this in a respectful manner.

[KimiYoriBaka]

ooh, I like the questions blue lemma put. I think I'll respond to those.

For the past couple years, I've been hanging out in the arcade of the local university, where the primary group is comprised of people who either very much enjoy their place as college students, or are simply majorly influenced by 4chan. My friends there are willing to joke about pretty much anything. That includes rape, murder, race, economic status, and in general, misery of all forms. Looking back, I think it's almost an initiation into the group that a person, in some way, make a comment about themselves that would usually be highly offensive.

example: most of the people of african descent graduated recently and haven't been able to hang out much. One of the new students last semester noticed this and made a joke about being the "token black guy". Upon realizing that there was still another dark-skinned student that he just hadn't seen much (different schedules and such), he made a comment about passing the baton while leaving.

The reason this is relevant, is the question of context was mentioned. In my experience, context is the thing that most matters above all else. the reason our group is capable of existing without majorly offending anyone is because everyone there is okay with it. It's not so much that we're all tolerant people either, but simply because tolerance toward whoever is currently hanging out down there is the an absolute unwritten rule. this applies not only to the usually sensitive topics either. One guy with ostracized for repeatedly insulting other people's anime preferences.


on the subject of whether the ethnicity of the person saying a comment should matter, I believe it's a "no" even regardless of the context. As I see it, if something isn't tolerated it shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. In addition, I consider it a sign of ignorance to use language that you wouldn't accept from other people. In particular, anyone here familiar with american society is probably familiar with the "n word". This word is considered to automatically have different meaning depending on the skin color of the person using it. This is understandable due to the historical usages of it, but also brings the problem that people exposed to it in different ways won't necessarily understand the meaning.

One time, I was riding the bus home with several high school students I didn't know sitting near me. One of them tried using the "n word" to refer to me (I'm primarily of finnish descent, btw) and seriously didn't understand why I didn't respond to him. It actually took me quite some time to even realize he was talking to me.

in short, jokes of any kind should be used only with consideration for the people present (and likewise, should be criticized only after considering the target audience), and people shouldn't say things that they themselves would find offensive.

[Dollywitch]

I've just joined the forums, but I was browsing through old stuff and came across this, as well as some blogs about it.

I'm very worried as a rather vulnerable person. I want to make VNs, I want to get involved but I've had such bad experiences on forums up until now and I don't want some absurdist "Libertarian" justification for how I may get treated. When I get involved in a forum, I like to research how they treat minorities to avoid drama.

On the other side of the fence though, I talked with the Kinnougames person who blogged about this and they are the most unreasonable human beings I've ever come across, they are now insisting and continually blogging about the fact that I am racist, purely because I made a character of middle eastern origin with (obviously unnaturally bleached, in the punky, gothy kind of way) blonde hair, which is racist because it looks like she's trying to be white. I'm not even exaggerating.

I just want to say that not everyone is like that, that's a severe caricature of a minority that is not that common in reality, and there is a middle ground between the "doormat" minorities and ones that explode over everything. Just because there are some bad examples doesn't mean that people don't have a right to be upset when people make you feel uncomfortable or outright reject your interests as "Identity politics". It's very easy for someone who's not affected by it in the slightest to make that judgement from afar. The above example I listed is things gone crazy, but the majority of the time, "Politic Correctness" can end up being a weapon not for the disadvantaged, but for the bigots who project it everywhere and act like their views are somehow edge and unconventional: They're not. And some things are just asshole-ish to say, regardless of political correctness. You're not "sticking it to the man" since it's likely the man agrees with you on some level.

I want to be assured this isn't going to happen again. It was less the original comments that bothered me, as they were understandably more lacking education in the matter, but the way the mods handled it was quite shameful. I think some reasonable and good people were chased out who were only standing up for themselves and others. Nobody should feel good about that, ever. Every art form is better when it is contributed to by people with different life experiences.

Diversity is important, because it makes things less boring.

[Watercolorheart]

I think it can all be summed up in that old adage, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

Basically, everyone should have the right to live as they please if it's not hurting anybody for reals.

[Dollywitch]

Yeah, sadly, that's a very complicated thing to work out. Ethics aren't easy, which is why I'm generally opposed to both very absolutist ethics and more relativist ethics.

[Fawn]

If something like that happens again, drop it on the spot and completely ignore the person who is being irrational. They typically just want a reaction; and if someone rather be known for being unreasonable and cruel than for the hard work they put into their art form, that's their problem.
I tried working for Kinnougames, and it got so bad that I honestly could not take anything they said seriously any more. I felt more like I was being used as a metaphorical pillow to be cried upon and punched for no good reason instead of the purpose I was originally hired for. It's a shame that they were taken so seriously in the first place.

If anyone's rude like that again, I suggest just pulling one of these:



It worked for me.

[Aleema]

If something like that happens again, drop it on the spot and completely ignore the person who is being irrational. ... It's a shame that they were taken so seriously in the first place.

That's my POV on all this, basically.