Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
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Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Now I´ve got your attention!
Just to say why I´m off my (discussed afterwards) opinion about GUIs:
I played lots of MMORPGs. Commercial ones(WoW, WAR,..) and free ones(whatever..) and I typically stayed with the commercial ones. I often asked myself just why(Although I knew quite well) I didn´t play the free Ones for longer than one hour - Until I could accept the truth.
... Free MMORPGs have a SHITTY GUI. No way around that - Whatever which one you look at, it´s shit. It´s the same layout, it´s the same order of buttons, the skills are given away in a GUI that you have seen thousand times before ... It´s tiring. JUST TIRING. WoW for example got a GUI which -actually- hasn´t got the same look everywhere.
Therefore a wise advice:
Don´t forget your GUIs wishes for beauty and individualism!
It will thank you forever.. and ever... and ever.... ~.~
Edit: The free games often are crappy too, but the GUI tells more than you might think..
TL;DR
Make a goddamn GUI which doesn´t look like crap or just any other! Ty!
*Waves and flies off on his rainbow of beauty*
Just to say why I´m off my (discussed afterwards) opinion about GUIs:
I played lots of MMORPGs. Commercial ones(WoW, WAR,..) and free ones(whatever..) and I typically stayed with the commercial ones. I often asked myself just why(Although I knew quite well) I didn´t play the free Ones for longer than one hour - Until I could accept the truth.
... Free MMORPGs have a SHITTY GUI. No way around that - Whatever which one you look at, it´s shit. It´s the same layout, it´s the same order of buttons, the skills are given away in a GUI that you have seen thousand times before ... It´s tiring. JUST TIRING. WoW for example got a GUI which -actually- hasn´t got the same look everywhere.
Therefore a wise advice:
Don´t forget your GUIs wishes for beauty and individualism!
It will thank you forever.. and ever... and ever.... ~.~
Edit: The free games often are crappy too, but the GUI tells more than you might think..
TL;DR
Make a goddamn GUI which doesn´t look like crap or just any other! Ty!
*Waves and flies off on his rainbow of beauty*
Last edited by Silvere on Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
A lot of people who design games forget about making a nice GUI, sadly. :c It's important!
Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
GUI should be last though, part of the release engineering process. I never released a game that had the first version of the GUI, primarily because you won't know until you have all the art assets together how the whole work should look/feel. I remember wasting a lot of time creating a spiffy game options menu only for it to not be used. Though of course for sims / RPGs and other gameplay-based games the GUI is part of the battle design, which can make or break the game.
Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Most people can't be graphic designers and great game developers at the same time xDD So, would you rather have a shiny GUI or a game that's actually worth playing?
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Parts of both. I can´t play with a crappy GUI and I can´t play a game with horribly story/... . Especially with Visual Novels made by Renpy I hate it when the standard textbox pops up and the menu is the usual one. NERDRAAAAAAAAAGE. I won´t even play it any further. No way - Most likely because it feels like the creator didn´t ! CARE ! about it enough. And that´s not something worth for me playing :3Fawn wrote:So, would you rather have a shiny GUI or a game that's actually worth playing?
And it´s like with CGs - Everywhere there is someone who can help you :3
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
GUI design is not something that comes naturally to all people - even many artists are completely crap at it. And I've seen at least a couple of people attempt custom looks that made their games unplayable (or at least painfully hard to read) and had to change them. It is definitely better to have the default RenPy look than to end up with a game that can't even be read.
It's rude to assume that people who haven't made the world's prettiest GUI just don't care about their games. Obviously you're entitled to your preferences and you don't HAVE to play games that you think don't match your standards, but throwing a huge fit about it is more likely to make people ignore you than to get people to actually make better GUIs.![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
If you really want to help improve the state of game GUI, how about less swearing and some more thoughtful discussion of what makes a good or bad GUI, with examples? I bet there's a LOT of people on this forum who would love some tips and guidelines.
... also, as far as 'individualism' goes in MMORPG gui design? That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what most professional designers will tell you about games. It's got nothing to do with some of those MMORPGs being free - games use similar interfaces because they're what the players expect and can use without getting totally confused. You could make a game where blue was health and green was mana, but you'd confuse the heck out of the playerbase and most of them would give up on the game. Artistic flair, yes, artistic flair is useful in giving your game an identity. Intentionally disarranging skills and stats just to be different will drive your users away.![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
It's rude to assume that people who haven't made the world's prettiest GUI just don't care about their games. Obviously you're entitled to your preferences and you don't HAVE to play games that you think don't match your standards, but throwing a huge fit about it is more likely to make people ignore you than to get people to actually make better GUIs.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
If you really want to help improve the state of game GUI, how about less swearing and some more thoughtful discussion of what makes a good or bad GUI, with examples? I bet there's a LOT of people on this forum who would love some tips and guidelines.
... also, as far as 'individualism' goes in MMORPG gui design? That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what most professional designers will tell you about games. It's got nothing to do with some of those MMORPGs being free - games use similar interfaces because they're what the players expect and can use without getting totally confused. You could make a game where blue was health and green was mana, but you'd confuse the heck out of the playerbase and most of them would give up on the game. Artistic flair, yes, artistic flair is useful in giving your game an identity. Intentionally disarranging skills and stats just to be different will drive your users away.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
That´s why I´m talking about good GUIs ... I even said not to make crappy ones, didn´t I?papillon wrote:It is definitely better to have the default RenPy look than to end up with a game that can't even be read.
![Surprised :o](./images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif)
I didn´t say that. Actually people who at least TRIED cared about their games. If there is the standard GUI that comes with no effort, then it´s easy to say that it wasn´t important to them.papillon wrote: It's rude to assume that people who haven't made the world's prettiest GUI just don't care about their games.
Could do that (Although I don´t know if it really will be a help :/ ) but not today as I´m tired as hell *_* Maybe tomorrow (If I don´t have to do the same work again <.<)If you really want to help improve the state of game GUI, how about less swearing and some more thoughtful discussion of what makes a good or bad GUI, with examples? I bet there's a LOT of people on this forum who would love some tips and guidelines.
I didn´t mean it that way.It's got nothing to do with some of those MMORPGs being free - games use similar interfaces because they're what the players expect and can use without getting totally confused. You could make a game where blue was health and green was mana, but you'd confuse the heck out of the playerbase and most of them would give up on the game. Artistic flair, yes, artistic flair is useful in giving your game an identity. Intentionally disarranging skills and stats just to be different will drive your users away.
It´s just fact that there are at least 20 MMORPGs out there with a Grey menu with red buttons and yellow arrows to arrange skillpoints(STR,..). Next there are at least 20 MMORPGs with a skill-menu which is Grey too and has a UNIQUE AND NICE look because the skills are rowed up in a single line! Or more lines! Most likely there is a tab at the bottom too - Naturally in Grey. Not speaking about the talent-tree with an explosive amount of skills and a nice, Grey background! Yay for Grey! (Whaha... ._. ^^)
And then let´s look at WoW(for example): Skills -> Got the form of a book. Quests -> If no quest, Grey (But with spiderwebs + antique feeling, etc.), if quest -> A scroll! Talents -> A background picture for every damn skill tree! The character window -> Well okay, it´s Grey. Just to mention some things.
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
I would argue that user interface design does not come naturally at all. It is a struggle to find a balance between aesthetic pleasure, elements of design and practicality while working within the limits of what the programmers are willing to do. Some creators are content as long as the user interface works. Often it is something that gets the least amount of attention and appreciation. I bet a lot of professional designers often feel frustrated by the conditions under which they have to work.
For example, a background artist in a visual novel may only need to concern themselves with creating the background for each scene. However, a user interface designer needs to take the entire game into consideration, including to what extent the game engine can be pushed. They need to make sure that text is legible, important data or sprites are not obscured, to not detract from the visual elements in the game itself, etc.
A good start would be for creators to know what can be done with the engine by playing completed games. The tutorials tell you how you could customize it, but sometimes it is hard to wrap your head around the code if you are visually oriented. Some community members like Aleema have contributed helpful tutorials like how to customize the menu. The most recent example that comes to mind is Dusk: A Moonlight Romance by chensterrain. (If you click on 'options' or 'load' from the main menu a bookmark-like graphic appears on the right)
It is not easy, is what I am trying to say. :|
For example, a background artist in a visual novel may only need to concern themselves with creating the background for each scene. However, a user interface designer needs to take the entire game into consideration, including to what extent the game engine can be pushed. They need to make sure that text is legible, important data or sprites are not obscured, to not detract from the visual elements in the game itself, etc.
A good start would be for creators to know what can be done with the engine by playing completed games. The tutorials tell you how you could customize it, but sometimes it is hard to wrap your head around the code if you are visually oriented. Some community members like Aleema have contributed helpful tutorials like how to customize the menu. The most recent example that comes to mind is Dusk: A Moonlight Romance by chensterrain. (If you click on 'options' or 'load' from the main menu a bookmark-like graphic appears on the right)
It is not easy, is what I am trying to say. :|
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
And you will instantly see it.. Something that accompanies you through the whole game is not to be taken lightly.Nebi wrote:Often it is something that gets the least amount of attention and appreciation.
Yeah, saw it too and was like "Wow, that´s a nice one!"The most recent example that comes to mind is Dusk: A Moonlight Romance by chensterrain. (If you click on 'options' or 'load' from the main menu a bookmark-like graphic appears on the right)
And because of that you are allowed to ignore it?It is not easy, is what I am trying to say.
It´s your game after all and you want a complete game, don´t you? Therefore: Do something about it
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Typically I agree that a game that is aesthetically pleasing is going to be more fun than one that isn't. However, just to play devil's advocate, I must mention the majority of Imageepoch's games*, which in my not-so-humble opinion are absolute garbage despite looking very nice. They even stole the interface of Persona 3/4 for a few of their mediocre RPGs, which made them no less mediocre. Therefore, I would rather play some nobody's default-graphic Ren'Py game than another sparkly waste of time by Imageepoch.
*One of the few exceptions would be 7th Dragon, but even that was a joint project with Sega.
In any case, that's more of my rant against Imageepoch than it is saying GUI isn't important. I maintain that, at least in the commercial-to-semi-commercial (AKA 'free-to-play' MMOs) arena, a game with a nice GUI will last twice as long as one that looks like it was made on the same factory line as all the others. Though one that's actually fun to play will last three times as long as one that merely looks nice...
*One of the few exceptions would be 7th Dragon, but even that was a joint project with Sega.
In any case, that's more of my rant against Imageepoch than it is saying GUI isn't important. I maintain that, at least in the commercial-to-semi-commercial (AKA 'free-to-play' MMOs) arena, a game with a nice GUI will last twice as long as one that looks like it was made on the same factory line as all the others. Though one that's actually fun to play will last three times as long as one that merely looks nice...
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
I can't play a game with a bad GUI. It really breaks everything for me. If the beef of your game is a chore to read (either illegible or distracting), or your art is really professional and everything looks like a five year old made it, then I'm just going to stop playing your game.
As absolutely horrible as it is to judge a book by its cover, the GUI is a quick and easy way to tell me if a game is worth playing. If the creator isn't good at one aspect of their game and failed to seek help and especially if the game is commercial, I won't play it. They didn't bother, and neither will I. Worse, if the GUI is downright horrible and the creator doesn't know, I question taste altogether. Typically, if it is free and I am very interested, I will usually put up with a bad GUI. If I'm not very interested from the start, I will abstain.
I find many commercial games have lacking GUI (even something like DA2). They have boxes upon boxes of things that needed good skinning but are either simple and plain or unintuitive. I want to shed a tear. ;_; People deserve good GUI if they're laying down money for it.
Keep in mind I'm a graphic artist myself, so the GUI is more important to me than it might be others. But never underestimate the power of a good GUI.
As absolutely horrible as it is to judge a book by its cover, the GUI is a quick and easy way to tell me if a game is worth playing. If the creator isn't good at one aspect of their game and failed to seek help and especially if the game is commercial, I won't play it. They didn't bother, and neither will I. Worse, if the GUI is downright horrible and the creator doesn't know, I question taste altogether. Typically, if it is free and I am very interested, I will usually put up with a bad GUI. If I'm not very interested from the start, I will abstain.
I find many commercial games have lacking GUI (even something like DA2). They have boxes upon boxes of things that needed good skinning but are either simple and plain or unintuitive. I want to shed a tear. ;_; People deserve good GUI if they're laying down money for it.
Keep in mind I'm a graphic artist myself, so the GUI is more important to me than it might be others. But never underestimate the power of a good GUI.
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Free games with bad GUI = excusable.
Commercial games with bad GUI = now we can rant about this one.
Commercial games with bad GUI = now we can rant about this one.
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Okay, I wouldn't mind if it's a free game. (After all, it's just a hobby or just a fun pastime or experiment, etc, or people may be first-timers [like moi] and may not know how to work with the GUI, etc.)
If it's for a commercial game, though, then I would worry more about how the GUI looks---for practical purposes,
not just aesthetic reasons.
It has to be simple to understand, legible and easy to use (not cumbersome).
However, if you are talking about pretty "skinning"/aesthetics (ex: pretty edges around the screen; flowers or bats on the corners),
then that is something I don't really notice or care about.
Of course, you still want to make it somewhat unique in the aesthetic part, but if it does the job it's supposed to do, I don't
care if it's just plain or "boring".
I usually don't care about GUI unless it's hard to handle, cumbersome, or do not follow the basic game design guidelines for GUI of that
particular genre. For example, in RPG's, people would expect that Blue/Green is the MP, while HP is usually red, and both are usually shown somewhere on the screen. WRPG gamers would also expect (in a D & D-like game anyway) the attributes to be shown on a screen and you can add or subtract them on that screen. Another example: FPS games usually have some kind of visual indicator that shows how many bullets you have, etc.
But, anyway, I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "bad" GUI. Are you talking about plain GUI? Or are you talking about confusing, ugly, or cumbersome GUI, etc?
If it's for a commercial game, though, then I would worry more about how the GUI looks---for practical purposes,
not just aesthetic reasons.
It has to be simple to understand, legible and easy to use (not cumbersome).
However, if you are talking about pretty "skinning"/aesthetics (ex: pretty edges around the screen; flowers or bats on the corners),
then that is something I don't really notice or care about.
Of course, you still want to make it somewhat unique in the aesthetic part, but if it does the job it's supposed to do, I don't
care if it's just plain or "boring".
I usually don't care about GUI unless it's hard to handle, cumbersome, or do not follow the basic game design guidelines for GUI of that
particular genre. For example, in RPG's, people would expect that Blue/Green is the MP, while HP is usually red, and both are usually shown somewhere on the screen. WRPG gamers would also expect (in a D & D-like game anyway) the attributes to be shown on a screen and you can add or subtract them on that screen. Another example: FPS games usually have some kind of visual indicator that shows how many bullets you have, etc.
But, anyway, I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "bad" GUI. Are you talking about plain GUI? Or are you talking about confusing, ugly, or cumbersome GUI, etc?
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
I will guarantee you that behind at least some cases where you think someone "just didn't care" there's actually 100+ hours of work which was eventually thrown away in despair because it kept looking like crap so they went back to the default.
Also, "simple and plain" IS good GUI by many people's definitions, even if it doesn't meet your personal tastes.
GUI is a personal bugbear. I've spent more time/sweat/tears than you would possibly want to imagine on some of mine (including projects never released) and still can't do better than "well, at least it isn't the default". That INCLUDES hiring so-called professionals to do the job, wasting time and money, and having them turn out something that looked even worse (Or looked nice in itself but was completely the wrong style for the game in question).
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Also, "simple and plain" IS good GUI by many people's definitions, even if it doesn't meet your personal tastes.
GUI is a personal bugbear. I've spent more time/sweat/tears than you would possibly want to imagine on some of mine (including projects never released) and still can't do better than "well, at least it isn't the default". That INCLUDES hiring so-called professionals to do the job, wasting time and money, and having them turn out something that looked even worse (Or looked nice in itself but was completely the wrong style for the game in question).
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Re: Whatever you do - GET THAT DAMN GUI RIGHT! *_*
Yeah, a couple of the First-person-shooter games (and a couple of JRPG's) I have played look like they have similar and/or plain GUI's (both commercial and free ones). But then again, I'm too busy shooting things on the screen, and as long as I know how many bullets and grenades I have, then the GUI has done its job, lol. ![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
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