Sprite Poses

[Auro-Cyanide]

I thought I had answered this question myself previously, but obviously not since I keep thinking about it. My musings have lead me to think about many things related to the pros and cons of having multiple sprite poses and so I am currently still tossing up if I actually want to do them.

The background to this is I have currently done... 12 sprites for BCM, the 5 mains and a bunch of secondary characters. I am going to be editing the sprites in the near future, hopefully short of redrawing them. Must resist redrawing. There are things I need to smooth out, some anatomy to fix (seriously, why do I draw collarbones so low D:) as well as expanding on the current sprites. Right now the characters generally have (or will have) neutral poses. I had previously dismissed the idea of more poses because of the time it was taking to create the sprites, as well as all the other work that needed to be done. The point is to get the game finished after all. I can create the prettiest, most detailed sprites I have ever drawn, but that's pointless if they are never in a game XD

However, after Nanoreno I have learnt quite a few things, and we have made a couple choices that have cut down my workload. So once again multiple poses have fallen into the realm of doable and possibly worth it.

Now comes the choices. The way I see it, there are two reasons to have different poses.
-One is to exaggerate emotion. Humans use body language to communicate and while a neutral pose can read okay as either positive or negative, it doesn't have the same volume. However, theoretically you could have a pose for every sentence a character says. Sometimes every word. So where do you draw lines on what you draw? Should I go with 3 and have neutral, positive and negative? Would the fact these existed make the lack of more poses more obvious? I have learnt from drawing emotions that the more you have the more subtle they need to be and the amount can tend to increase exponentially.
-To give life to the characters. Like blinking eyes I feel these poses would be far more minor and are more about giving the characters a certain amount of animation. They would not be about conveying significantly more emotion, but giving some visual interest. I am leaning a bit more in this direction simply because I feel that I might cause problems having dramatically different poses. I am limited by what I can do in certain time frames after all.

Other problems to consider is that I would probably only be applying this to the main characters. With as many side characters as I have, it would probably be impossibly to do everyone and I don't think the effort would be worth it. Would it be weird to see the main characters move and the side characters not move? There is also a chance inconsistencies will creep in. I think I do worry about this one too much, I'm not sure many people notice it the same way I do. There is also the technical aspects like building the sprites to begin with and redrawing a bunch of stuff.

Anyway, thoughts and solutions?

[luminarious]

How about all characters having some sort of neutral pose for most of the expressions they wear, and then the body language changes are used sort of like bolded text to really emphasize an emotion? Otherwise the whole emotion thing becomes sort of.. an overdone flicker, especially if they change expressions every sentence or so (Katawa Shoujo had a couple of places where the characters twitched annoyingly when talking).

[Auro-Cyanide]

How about all characters having some sort of neutral pose for most of the expressions they wear, and then the body language changes are used sort of like bolded text to really emphasize an emotion? Otherwise the whole emotion thing becomes sort of.. an overdone flicker, especially if they change expressions every sentence or so (Katawa Shoujo had a couple of places where the characters twitched annoyingly when talking).

I do agree that major pose changes should be used sparingly. Minor ones, if done fluidly, might not be as annoying, but should still be used only here and there. Still, which emotions to choose? I will only be able to have, probably 3 pose changes at the most? Probably only two if I'm pretty much redrawing the sprite. What happens if I have ones for some extreme emotions and not some for others?

[DaFool]

It's really hard to explain when pose changes are done right or done poorly, it's best to have a real example of something done right:

(Assuming you won't mind 18+ yuri and have Applocale installed)

http://vndb.org/v6341

I have learned to implement super-panning of ero CGs in The Saga of Original Sin thanks to the example set forth in this game. If we had a lot of poses we would have gone overkill with the ATL puppetry motions just like they did with this game.

But as is the case, we only have about 2-3 main pose changes per major character, and only 1 main pose per minor character. Such is budget (or life).

[luminarious]

To answer that, I would have to go through your VN like a movie director, looking for spots where the actors seem wooden or lacking in character. A character has some expressions dictated by his or her general personality type, but not all of them will be shown during the course of the story.

My own unfinished projects are not a good example, of course, because they are unfinished. But I really feel that approaching a VN more like a theatre play (the characters are actors and I am directing them to better fulfill their roles) or a movie (I really like storyboarding these) gives me a better handle on the overall feel of the game.

[Nuxill]

For emotions I would go for at least one happy/excited pose and one sad pose to go along with the neutral, and the third extra pose could be something to emphasize the character's personality. That way you have a little bit of everything!

I'm just the opposite when it comes to pose changes; for me it's the more the better! Otherwise I tend to ignore the top half of the screen. My favorite sprites are animated ones (like in the Ace Attorney series), even though I know that's out of the work load range for a lot of the people on this forum.

[clua]

Hmmm

I have always this problem haha...
I would go for making distinctive poses for stronger reactions(angry, surprised(could work for confused also), sad, very very happy lol)
I think that maybe you can check the scenes and write down how many times you could use the same pose in your game and if its really worth to draw a newer one for that scene(I think that would prevent you to waste time on sprites that would never be used...I made a happy Vosges face and in the end Vosges was never happy in the game lol)...The blinking animation I used for the idle/stand pose, since other expresions or poses wouldnt stay much longer on screen.
Also for side characters to have other poses, would be very valid if they had an stronger reaction, like being very mad or very scared..If not just face expresion would be fine I think D:!

Also I learn very late on TKOT...why the heck I was making the whole sprite for just one expresion orz...When I just only needed to make a png with the face.

I dont know if this might be useful but I find Hotel Dusk great to point when It comes to body language(which is not cartoon like)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z76e6IN_YHU
For more exagerated would be something like Layton or Ace Attoney series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQUMxKu ... ure=relmfu
http://www.court-records.net/Media.htm (The speaking animation is a great reference btw for something that just loops for everything the character says lol)
(I know that they are animated but just look at the frame where they stop the animation ehehe)

[luminarious]

Hotel Dusk feels like the characters were rotoscoped, not just drawn.

[papillon]

Yes, that series uses rotoscoping, which is a bit beyond any of us, afaik

[clua]

Hotel Dusk feels like the characters were rotoscoped, not just drawn.

I think they were:
http://youtu.be/6shp3Qm2Jl0

But It doesnt fail to be a great example anyway...

[luminarious]

Hotel Dusk feels like the characters were rotoscoped, not just drawn.

I think they were:
http://youtu.be/6shp3Qm2Jl0

But It doesnt fail to be a great example anyway...

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. It's a very good example and I even think that rotoscoping for a VN is not too far out there. Basically you can have a friend go through a list of emotions on video and BAM you have a reference for a certain kind of character. You can base all sorts of sprites on that friend then, animated or not.

[Anarchy]

The number and the sheer expressiveness of the sprites in Dangan Ronpa is incredible (use the table of contents links to jump to the prologue if you want to see the sprites in action). None of the sprites are animated, but because each sprite has a different pose and expression, and because of the exaggerated style of the art, every single character in the game feels extremely vibrant and unique. Body language can really say a lot about somebody's personality.

Oh, btw clua, I never told you where my avatar's from, did I? It's from this game, Dangan Ronpa! You should really check the link out, it's an amaaaaazing game. From what I know of you, I think you'd love it, since it has that blend of over-the-top comedy and seriousness that you like.

[clua]

Hotel Dusk feels like the characters were rotoscoped, not just drawn.

I think they were:
http://youtu.be/6shp3Qm2Jl0

But It doesnt fail to be a great example anyway...

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. It's a very good example and I even think that rotoscoping for a VN is not too far out there. Basically you can have a friend go through a list of emotions on video and BAM you have a reference for a certain kind of character. You can base all sorts of sprites on that friend then, animated or not.

XD That would be totally awesome to have on a VN...Once I told my boss that I wanted to make something like that and he said NO. lol

But my point wasnt exactly the animation itself...It was the poses that the character have. It could be easily get from photo references and such if you dont want to make it too animeish or cartoon just depends on your tastes hehe

Oh, btw clua, I never told you where my avatar's from, did I? It's from this game, Dangan Ronpa! You should really check the link out, it's an amaaaaazing game. From what I know of you, I think you'd love it, since it has that blend of over-the-top comedy and seriousness that you like.

XD I like the character concept so far. they all look different

[LateWhiteRabbit]

The way I see it, there are two reasons to have different poses.
-One is to exaggerate emotion. Humans use body language to communicate and while a neutral pose can read okay as either positive or negative, it doesn't have the same volume. However, theoretically you could have a pose for every sentence a character says. Sometimes every word. So where do you draw lines on what you draw?

I really agree with the part in bold. You should know this stuff Auro-Cyanide - as artists we should ALWAYS strive for exaggerated emotions and poses. It is the same reason you never draw a fist connecting with someone's face, but instead draw it PAST the face and the head snapped back. To emphasize the motion and exaggerate the impact. The former makes the punch look weak and ineffectual, while the latter makes the viewer "see" the action in their head and looks strong and impactful.

You don't show someone crying - you show them sobbing. Going too subtle or restrained makes images ambiguous - the emotion you are trying to convey may not come through. For instance, if a character is standing with tears streaming down their face, are they sad, or angry?

Or they may have gotten dust in their eyes for all we know!

Should I go with 3 and have neutral, positive and negative? Would the fact these existed make the lack of more poses more obvious? I have learnt from drawing emotions that the more you have the more subtle they need to be and the amount can tend to increase exponentially.

That is the wrong way to think about it - breaking it down into neutral, positive, or negative. There is no need for balance. Each character should only have the poses they need. This rolls into the next thing below, so I'll pick up there.

-To give life to the characters. Like blinking eyes I feel these poses would be far more minor and are more about giving the characters a certain amount of animation. They would not be about conveying significantly more emotion, but giving some visual interest. I am leaning a bit more in this direction simply because I feel that I might cause problems having dramatically different poses. I am limited by what I can do in certain time frames after all.

Dramatically different poses convey animation. The viewer's mind will fill in everything between the poses. The different poses imply movement and motion, because the viewer knows the character HAD to move to get between those two states, even if we don't see it. And why would you be more interested in using poses for visual interest instead of conveying emotions? Ideally you do both.

Poses are important because they tell us about a character - a 1000 words and all that. The way different people stand even in a "neutral" position tells us a lot about them. We can tell how comfortable or confident they are, etc. And the effect of posture on personality is amplified when actual emotions are brought to the table. It looks comical or flat out wrong when someone only shows emotion in their face. With anger, muscles tense, hands clench into fists, or arms cross, etc.

You don't even need a lot of poses to convey everything for a character - take Etna from Disgaea - she was handled great with her poses and they told everything about her personality and sustained dozens of hours worth of story telling - in only 9 poses.

In order - Attentive, Happy, Enraged, Bothered, Angry, Surprised, Sad, Annoyed, and Flirty. That was all the poses her character and PERSONALITY needed.

Poses and emotions don't break down into easy positive, neutral, or negative categories. Each character has their own needs in the story according to personality and action, and your selection of poses should be based on THAT. Let's look at Flonne from the same game:

9 Poses again, but different from Etna's. In order - Positive, Righteous Anger, Embarrassment, Shock, Piousness, Exasperation, Dazed/Tired, Determined, and Happy. Also note how much more formal and constrained Flonne is than Etna. She keeps good posture and doesn't bring much of her body or hands into her emotions unless she loses control.

Other problems to consider is that I would probably only be applying this to the main characters. With as many side characters as I have, it would probably be impossibly to do everyone and I don't think the effort would be worth it. Would it be weird to see the main characters move and the side characters not move? There is also a chance inconsistencies will creep in. I think I do worry about this one too much, I'm not sure many people notice it the same way I do. There is also the technical aspects like building the sprites to begin with and redrawing a bunch of stuff.

I'm doing it for my side characters, but not to the same level of detail. After all, we probably don't need to see a wide range of emotions from side characters. For instance I have a merchant NPC whose poses and expressions are Smarmy and Annoyed, because his sales pitch is either working on the main character or it isn't. I think it would be weird if side characters didn't change pose AT ALL. Using my merchant example, if he has dialogue where he gets bothered or upset by the main character it would be weird if he still just stood looking smarmy.

TL:DR
I think changing poses with expressions is essential. It is one of my pet peeves seeing it not done. After all, it doesn't take a lot of extra effort most of the time, but the results can really sell an emotion or expression.

[papillon]

it doesn't take a lot of extra effort most of the time

...
...
... Maybe it wouldn't be that much extra for an artist doing their own art, but having to multiply your sprite budget by nine to get all those poses is rather more of a big deal?