Player Interaction in a Story

[Friendbot2000]

Like a speed demon. I went to school when Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing was considered the height of computer science.

Oh my God, me too! They had us straight-up typing in that stupid program for an hour and a half each day. URGH I started to loathe that $#@%-eating grin Mavis had on her face. Did you have the version with the car game? You know, the one where bugs went splat on your windshield and when you made too many spelling mistakes you ended up crashing? Wow, that totally dates the two of us, they don't even teach typing in computer class anymore. Then again it comes so naturally to every new generation due to the constant exposure to computers. My 2 year old niece can push buttons on her little laptop like a speed demon and in the right order too.

As LateWhiteRabbit said, a game is full of choices and paths you can take, not a singular path that you hop along for the ride. Choices rule and it is best to keep them well paced.

[Ziassan]

In some VN I tried to write, a thing about player interaction and choices is that I didn't use "branching directly depending on the choices" but instead variables.
For instance, name a variable "silliness" and start it at 0.
Then choices will increase it or not. Then choices of the branching will be chosen according to the value of "silliness" (and others differents variables).
Well, it has a great but complex potentiel, you can for instance increase a variable according to others :

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Choice A : Tell Alex that Lea is a bad person

> if Alex.opinionOfLea > 10 : then decrease Axel.opinionOfYou (if he likes Lea too much he will like you less)
> if Alex.opinionOfYou > 10 : then decrease Axel.opinionOfLea (if he trusts you enough he will decrease his opinion about Lea)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(not really like that in the code but that's for understanding)

Well, that's not useful for every story, but you can use complex structures of plot branch without even knowing all the ways the reader could go through.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Like a speed demon. I went to school when Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing was considered the height of computer science.

Oh my God, me too! They had us straight-up typing in that stupid program for an hour and a half each day. URGH I started to loathe that $#@%-eating grin Mavis had on her face. Did you have the version with the car game? You know, the one where bugs went splat on your windshield and when you made too many spelling mistakes you ended up crashing? Wow, that totally dates the two of us, they don't even teach typing in computer class anymore. Then again it comes so naturally to every new generation due to the constant exposure to computers. My 2 year old niece can push buttons on her little laptop like a speed demon and in the right order too.

Yeah, the Eighties were radical. A technologically advanced age where the computers could display sometimes up to 4 colors a screen! Where you could pass most of the computer tests by just knowing how to turn on the computer without starting World War 3 with the Soviet Union. And in 1987 we got the advanced typing robot known as Mavis Beacon. She forced you into a driving simulator, made you type out painful jokes and punchlines one letter at a time and tried to fry your brain with oscillating computer tones. The Eighties everyone!

@Ziassan: Variables are basically how I control most of my branches as well. So except for some big choices, most branching occurs because of a trend in player behavior instead of any one choice in a scene.

[Friendbot2000]

@Ziassan: Variables are basically how I control most of my branches as well. So except for some big choices, most branching occurs because of a trend in player behavior instead of any one choice in a scene.

Hmmmm...variables....that gives me an ingenious idea for my game! Thank you Lemmasoft Think Tank! Hmm I think that I should use variables for the NPC interaction storylines and then have the main story line be choice oriented...yes, it is all coming together now. *spins around in chair and pets kitty*

But seriously, variables are a good idea. I am surprised I didn't think of that sooner. It's a good thing I am still in the writing stage or I would have to redo a whole bunch of code. Thank you Ziassan and LateWhiteRabbit. ^.^

[Carassaurat]

However, these choices let the player define their character's personality in their own head. Is your character snarky? Antagonistic? Maybe the type to be friendly and turn the other cheek? Or perhaps the character is aloof, cold, or mysterious. This makes things easier on me as the writer, and gives the player the illusion of great agency. Often all I have to do as a writer is add ONE extra sentence where another character acknowledges the player's attitude or action. The player feels vindicated because the game is acknowledging past actions, regardless of whether they really changed anything.

The problem I have with this is that as a VN nudges more towards a game, players will try to game the system. The characters will invariable head towards a Mary Sue, a wish fulfillment character, and those just aren't deep enough to hold up a good story. Mass Effect sums the options up quite nicely, as either a character who will achieve victory by being nicer than anyone else, or a character who will achieve victory by being more badass than anyone else. Either way, if the player is left in command, it's victory after victory for the main character, because no player will ever choose to have his hero find out that some things aren't meant for humans, no player will have his hero sickly squirming in bed over guilt, and absolutely no player will have his hero murder his father and marry his mother. A played character can only struggle with the outside world, never with himself.

Maybe it's the distinction between shape-your-own-adventure and choose-your-own-adventure. And while shape sounds very fancy and postmodern, I think it's detrimental to the actual story.

[Endorphin]

Now here's a part where you could have done/said something different, but the MC does his or her own thing- and you completely disagree with it! What happened to my free will?

I thought a long time about this and remembered Hotel Dusk: Last Window.
There was a scene where I had to question someone who looked rather... suspicious.
I thought okay, let's do it my way - a little distant, but pretty polite.
And then I get two choices what Kyle could say - equally impolite.
I was a little annoyed that moment (I mean, hey - I'm the player), but the I just understood ad it all made sense. There's no way that Kyle of all people would be super-polite because that'd be just so OOC.
And this is just the difference between Japanese games and western games.
In western games (e.g. The Elder Scrolls) the protagonist is you - you are the dragonborn, you decide what to do.
In Japanese games (e.g. Hotel Dusk) you are the protagonist - Kyle is not me, but I am him. He doesn't do things my way, but I learn to do things his way.
And this actually means a lot to me.
When I want to play a fantasy-me, I play Skyrim.
When I want to feel a story, in which I/the protagonist grow/s, I play a VN.
Given that, I think that choices are very important, but they are not there for giving me the option to do a lot of silly things unless it is a parody.

- R.

[GeneDNC]

I like the idea of choices that control more subtle things, like what is said in the conversation, and not total path branches, but then I think it should be noticeable to the player which choices will have a larger affect on the story. It can be annoying if there's 5 different things you can say in every conversation, but only 2 of those change the outcome of the story. It's like overkill on replay value; the player might want to play each choice through to the end to see if they get a new outcome, only to find they get to see nothing new.

I think that's what people mean when they say they don't like meaningless/too many choices. So making it a bit more obvious which choices affect what will help the player not get annoyed and of course variables can possibly eliminate this problem altogether.

[papillon]

Either way, if the player is left in command, it's victory after victory for the main character, because no player will ever choose to have his hero find out that some things aren't meant for humans, no player will have his hero sickly squirming in bed over guilt, and absolutely no player will have his hero murder his father and marry his mother.

Many VN players will intentionally seek out the bad ends.

Even in Dragon Age many players will seek out some of the bad possibilities just to *see* them, if they know they exist. They want there to be a findable happy ending for their hero, but that doesn't mean they aren't willing to explore the other options. I can't stand shooty shooty enough to struggle through ME2 multiple times just to get the EVERYONE DIES bad end, but I certainly watched it on youtube.

Sometimes for plot reasons you need to force the main character to do something that will backfire and that if they had perfect knowledge they really shouldn't have done. That doesn't make it impossible to give at least *flavor* choices in how that stupid thing happens, even if you don't give them the choice to not do it.

Also, while this is somewhat of another topic, "Canon Sue"s can be rather unfairly maligned. A "wish fulfillment character" is not always a bad thing. Yes, it's a problem if a character is terribly written, has no flaws, and the entire universe warps around him/her. It's not necessarily a problem if a character is just cool or powerful. People want to read about / play as cool people.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

The problem I have with this is that as a VN nudges more towards a game, players will try to game the system.

Beginning game developers bring this up all the time. Here is the truth of the matter - players will ALWAYS try and game the system. And so what? It isn't about you versus the player. You aren't trying to defeat them or outsmart them. You are the designer of an activity meant to give them fun and enjoyment. As much as some people try and stress VNs as art slideshows or straight-up novels, they are still a game.

The characters will invariable head towards a Mary Sue, a wish fulfillment character, and those just aren't deep enough to hold up a good story.

I disagree. If a player can turn their character into a Mary Sue who everything goes right for, that isn't their fault, it is yours as the writer and scenario creator. A player can still experience great agency with their choices and have setbacks and mistakes. You're assuming they would have perfect knowledge of the system - that they would always know what the "best" choice would be. There shouldn't be any "best outcome" choices. If they can pick out a "best" choice, you've failed to create interesting choices. There should always be a tradeoff with choices. A good example is the Spider-man comics where the Green Goblin dangles a trolley car full of people off one side of a bridge and Gwen Stacy off the other. Spider-man can't save them both. This would be an interesting choice for a player, because neither choice is necessarily better or worse than the other.

A player's character only becomes a Mary Sue if you as the game designer are constantly giving them Mary Sue-style choices. Yes, giving them a constant stream of "Do you pet the kitten or kick it?" choices will make for a poor story, but that is YOUR failure as a writer. A good writer keeps the choices interesting and gives constant twists to the results. The player SHOULD be able to predict the outcome of their choices, but the result should never match up 100% with their expectations.

And if they play your game enough to map out a "perfect" route of choices? Congratulations, you've designed a fun game that keeps them playing!

Either way, if the player is left in command, it's victory after victory for the main character, because no player will ever choose to have his hero find out that some things aren't meant for humans, no player will have his hero sickly squirming in bed over guilt, and absolutely no player will have his hero murder his father and marry his mother. A played character can only struggle with the outside world, never with himself.

Not true. Again, if the player can achieve victory after victory with no setbacks you didn't design the story or choices very well. If your scenario design is good you can give the player the same anguish the character should be experiencing. You put the player in a situation where the logical choice for the best mechanical outcome does not match up with the choice for the best moral outcome. The player will experience dissonance. Any forward momentum they had will be arrested and they will be forced to struggle with a choice.

(EDIT: In simpler terms, you give the player a choice between doing something that would be best for THEMSELVES in a meta-gaming sense, and doing something that would be best for their CHARACTER. You put the player in a position where to do best for their own interests they must betray the character they've been controlling - and that you've hopefully made them care deeply about.)

In Bioshock 2 the player is presented with a choice at one point of whether or not to kill a character. It is fairly clear in the game that killing the character will NOT give the player the best ending, but the character has been set up and presented in such a way it feels morally wrong and unfair NOT to kill them. It is well executed, and I struggled for 10 minutes about whether or not to pull the trigger. The longer it takes your player to make a choice, the better that choice was designed.

Maybe it's the distinction between shape-your-own-adventure and choose-your-own-adventure. And while shape sounds very fancy and postmodern, I think it's detrimental to the actual story.

I believe it all depends on the writing and scenario design. It surprises me how many writers on the VN boards believe a story in a VN is some sacred thing that has a true shape and form, absolute and ordained. If you were writing a novel that may be true, but in this medium a story is always a JOINT creation between the designer and the player. Your job as the story writer is to make sure any combination of choices results in a satisfying and meaningful story. That is the power of games - the ability to create powerful stories that could not be told in other mediums through the mechanic of player agency in the story.

[Old Hero]

@Carassaurat,

I agree with LateWhiteRabbit. It's your duty as Writer (or what-have-you) to make them think. In my personal opinion, a good game (of any kind) is the one that makes you stop and just think about the choice, where you're just torn between the two. It's the same for choices - if you have

Code: Select all

menu:

"Choice 1":
        "Kill your Dad"
        
    "Second Choice":
        "Don't kill your Dad"

then who's going to stop and think about that? If there's a choice such as that, then it all depends on how the player wants the character to be viewed (alignment), not on how you feel. Take the Fable series for example; you can be pretty evil in the games, and some people go along with that path even though their character has the opportunity to choose something happier.

Besides, some people like to get all of the endings. That means the shitty, the evil, the crap ones too.

It's also your duty as a player to incorporate the personality of your character (unless it's default), and some people may wish to see the repercussions of that action, or at least incorporate the personality of being a badass evil-doer.

[Anna]

Agreed, but if I want to read a story without any choices I pick up a book. If I want to read a story with pictures and no choices I pick up a manga. I don't tend to think you can have such a thing as too many choices in something labeled a game. Looking at the new Ren'Py stats people post for their games like "3,743 screens of dialgoue" and all I can think is how many hundreds or thousands of clicks I'd have to make between choices.

Then you'd never even try Umineko or Narcissu, just because they don't have choices. What a waste D:.

I think you should incorporate as many choices as the story needs. Kinetic novels are not necessarily a bad thing and they're not the same as manga or books, so I really don't get the hate against them. Choices are just additional tools for telling a story through a VN, but they don't need to be used to make a good VN.

[Old Hero]

Well, VNs are supposed to be interactive - that's why they're fun.

KNs are still interactive, but not as much.

Since no one's opinion really matters in RL, it's always fun to immerse yourself into a game (be it VN or 360) and actually say or choose things that have a reaction, or see how the consequences roll out.

[Anna]

KNs are still interactive, but not as much.

Eh? A KN never has choices, it's just meant to be read. Wikipedia says it and this too:

http://vndb.org/g709

"A kinetic novel is a VN that does not present the "player" with any choices at all; they simply read through a single unbranching story."

[Old Hero]

Well, that was a bad way to phrase it. But it's 'different' in that you're still a part of the story, going along with the journey. In books you're usually reading about the character(s).

[Anna]

Well, that was a bad way to phrase it. But it's 'different' in that you're still a part of the story, going along with the journey. In books you're usually reading about the character(s).

But I think the same goes for kinetic novels? They're books with pictures and music, but you're always reading a story about people. I'm sorry, I don't understand the difference, do you mean the point of view or something ^^;?