Teams and Hopes and Bailing and RAGE

[Ionait]

This is a bit of a rant about doing projects as a team (be it creating a VN or deciding with your group of friends that you are going to do something fun this summer.)

I have a fun group of friends that I met through my husband. We hang out sometimes, go out to eat, simple things like that, but we all also like to do fun group things and we're all fairly creative people. One friend kept complaining that we never do anything exciting, so I announced to the whole group that I was making a "Master List of Cockamamie Ideas" and I wanted them all to contribute something they wanted to do as a group. Well, it turns out I contributed most of it, got mostly "I don't know"'s, and some very half-hearted, vague attempts at filling the list. That should have been my sign right there.

I numbered the list and used a random number generator to pick one as the first activity we should all do together. It was to make a game (in this case a board game.) We had kicked around the idea of making a Trivial Pursuit style game just for pop culture and geekdom and stuff and it actually sounded pretty doable with all of us, especially if we just used some poster board and make the game from scratch.

Well... That's why I'm back on the boards really. I'm here making this game in Renpy now, by myself. I asked them to contribute questions, but I haven't received any from them. I told them I was making character likenesses of them for the game so players could choose their character, and each would have unique stats and maybe an accessory or two that would "level up" over the game. They won't tell me anything about the character they would like. Not even a nickname to use for the game. I get "I don't know"'s as far as the personal item they were supposed to choose. I told them it could be something as simple as a t-shirt, just something they liked, but nothing. THEY CAN'T EVEN TELL ME ANYTHING ABOUT THEMSELVES!

So I've began raging as I realize I'm in this by myself. I am now second guessing even including my real friends as characters, since it's becoming so hard. I'm thinking of just taking this game in a different direction. If I'm doing it on my own, I'll do it on my darned own I guess, for good. It's just a bit depressing. I had started the project with a lot of excitement. I was asking them about level design and question categories, answers were "I don't know," "I'm not having a good thinking day." But I was still excited and hoped they'd help build their character. It would feel good to finish this kind of project as a team! But... there goes that. So now I'm a bit sad.

Well... Anyone else had similar experience where you go into something thinking everyone will be a team player and then you flop on your face by yourself? And... Is there another way I can try to get my friends involved in making this game? I dare cling to hope...

[teacup]

Hmm, I think there was a topic around here before that was very similar to this. Anyway, the consensus was that working with friends/family is generally a bad idea.
Oh wait, I found it!
Having a team can be great but the only person you can really rely on is yourself. I had a real life friend of mine who was supposed to help me edit backgrounds for my current project... I was really relying on her for that, and after some stupid RL drama we aren't friends anymore. And now I don't have a background editor. I think the problem of working with friends is that other drama can get in the way, or that just because they're your friends, doesn't mean they can be great helpers for your project. ^^;
Anyway, you should check out that thread. I think it will answer a lot of your questions.

[Ionait]

Oh no! I had double-thread-making, I'm sorry about that! For some reason I just read the first post in that and kind of thought mine was different, but I think the responses are what I need to. I'll read that thread more!

Thanks for sharing your story too. I almost think real life friends are harder to rely on than a team you make with online friends.

Edit to add: Read the thread. It's very similar to what I need, but not quite. I was very much informed though! I guess the point of this thread though is just to rant a bit, and then, if I should still try to get my real life friends to participate?

One of them is afraid to dedicate their time to something because it might never be finished and others might not participate. The other one is my husband and plans to help me with the music and he listens to my ideas and contributes, so he's actually an alright team member! The last one is a friend actually living with us, so I ask him questions about the game and about his character but his usual response is that he can't think right now and he buries his nose in his PSP.

We play Dungeons and Dragons together and when I first proposed this idea, everyone was interested. Is there a way to get them interested again, like they were when it was just an idea? Now that the molding needs done, nobody wants to mold with me!

It's a bit like the story of the Little Red Hen where she asks for help baking the bread but nobody wants to help, and when she's finished, everyone wants to eat the bread with her anyway.

[Sharm]

I've learned from a psych major friend that the person who needs the relationship the least is the one in control. I think this is why these sorts of projects never work, because the person who cares the least ends up being the lead that everyone follows. If you were doing this with people who weren't your friends you would treat the whole situation different. Only people who needed you would be joining the project instead of the other way around.

I've had a number of experiences like this, some that I started and one of which I was dragged into a manga project I didn't care very much about, another where the other person went her own way with my idea and then never got farther than dreaming up ideas and telling me that mine were wrong. I've come to the conclusion that the only way to properly balance the effort in a team project is to have balanced talent and motivation levels and proper respect for others effort. Don't worry too much though. Finding new people to make awesome projects with will lead you to new wonderful friends. You can never have too many of those!

[Gambit74]

It's really hard, if not impossible, to get your friends back into the game once they've already decided to drop out. The problem here is that there wasn't really anything to keep them excited once they got into it, and that's something really important because it serves as motivation fuel. Excitement is something that lasts only for a moment, and you gotta keep it alive by adding fuel to it if you want to get anywhere.

From what you've posted, it seems like you all started on the How (Plans and ideas on how to get to the goal) when you should've started with the Why (Establishing a motivation). Instead of asking for ideas and whatnot right at the start, what should've been done first is establishing a Why, which is what will keep your friends on wanting to complete the game. If your Why is strong enough, the How will be a lot easier to do since your friends will be motivated enough to actually throw ideas into the mix. If you skip straight to the How without the Why, your team won't really have a base to build a plan upon.

[Ionait]

Sharm: Ugh, that's so true! The friend who won't participate until he sees everyone else is the one that gets followed by the rest of the group, which creates one of those endless loops of nothing happening ever. I guess when I thought we were doing a team project, I should have picked something much more simple. This requires so much dedication. I probably shouldn't have lumped making a video game with something fun a group of friends could do just because, rather it's something that a group of friends do with careful planning and consideration.

Gambit74: Thank you for your advice. I understand the how part and we did start there. What do you mean by the why though? Would that be to make a profit or something, like a goal to make x amount of money?

[Gambit74]

That's one example of it. The Why is basically your reason for wanting to complete the game. It could be anything, like you want to get it done so that millions of people can enjoy it, or because you want to show the world what you can do. Not only is it motivational fuel, but like I said. If the Why is strong enough, it can really serve as a guideline for the How. When people are really determined to get something, they will always find a way to get it.

[Ionait]

I guess I thought my why was just to do something fun as a group that we haven't tried before. I've learned a lot from this experience. That why is good for things like going to a water park, but for creating a game, that's not quite enough.

I have a new question: I'm tempted to scrap the idea of using my friends as characters and just make my own. It would be much simpler since I wouldn't have to try to guess how they would react to situations and what they're really like. But it also feels a bit spiteful if I would do that...

[Anthy]

I've had to deal with this before. It seems like a lot of people want in on a project but only to have their name on it, they really don't want to contribute anything. (or they can't) Even getting people to pitch ideas or give feedback can be hard. "I dunno do whatever you want" is the response I would get most often.

With my "group" project I ended up in charge of research, characters, story, script, artwork, music etc. yep. Though at least when I derailed it from its original concept to fit my own style, the other so-called team members had no right to complain about it. I dropped the project and kept all my work to myself, right now it's just a dormant solo project that I will go back to when I feel ready and not so tired when I think about it. But I put so much hard work into it, and what I did manage to do was pretty good, so it'd be a waste to scrap it entirely.

My experience with group projects is if there's no real money involved, chances are all the work will be piled onto the only one that cares. At times I felt like offering money to other team members to bribe them to help me out, but in the end nothing they could do would have been worth it. Oh well. I'm still friends with all the former team members but I still harbor some resentment that keeps me from agreeing to any demanding favors anymore :/

At least be proud of the work you do. If dead weight is bringing you down, then cut it loose.

[Gambit74]

I have a new question: I'm tempted to scrap the idea of using my friends as characters and just make my own. It would be much simpler since I wouldn't have to try to guess how they would react to situations and what they're really like. But it also feels a bit spiteful if I would do that...

Where's the question?

My experience with group projects is if there's no real money involved, chances are all the work will be piled onto the only one that cares. At times I felt like offering money to other team members to bribe them to help me out, but in the end nothing they could do would have been worth it.

You should NEVER do that (Using money to get them to do it I mean). From personal experience, everyone who pitches in has to actually care about the project, even if only a little. If they're doing it just for the money or w/e, the quality of the project will really suffer. The only reason why I'm working alone on my project right now is because another project that I started with a friend didn't turn out the way we wanted it to. The reason being was because none of us put much care and effort into it, and the result was greatly disappointing :\ .

[Ionait]

I keep consoling myself with the idea of being a powerful one man army. Thank you for sharing your story Anthy. It's kind of sad that this has happened to so many people. The games we do make will be wonderful though and eventually the rage feeling will dissipate.

I had been chugging along with this project anyway, but lately when I sit down to work on it, even my favorite parts, I get a bit sad and frustrated at the fact that I'm doing it by myself. Maybe I'll work on another short game instead, like a buffer, and come back to this one after.

Gambit74: I agree! I've always loved creating stories using images and words and I'm usually very passionate about it. Whenever I don't have that passion and try to do something just for profit or because it's the trendy thing to do, it always turns sour.

As far as the question... I guess it would be, are my feelings correct that somewhere in that action, cutting my friends out of the game, there would be some spite and meanness in there? And if that is correct, I probably shouldn't do that.

[Gambit74]

No, at least not in my perspective. You're not obligated to keep them in the game in the first place, especially since they're not contributing and they aren't even trying. The only reason you would still keep them in there would be because you want to model those characters after them. If you decided that you want to scrap them, then there's no harm in that. I'm sure your friends would understand, but you're still not sure about it then you should at least let them know that you're scrapping them out of the picture for new characters.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Making a game with friends is much too involved. Honestly, it is almost a business enterprise it takes so much effort and time. And you know what they say about doing business with friends or family . . . .

Friends take advantage of you too much in a team situation that lasts months. I never work with anyone I hang out with as a friend. If I've completed a game project with someone, I may hang out with them as a new friend, but by then I know they are professional and can finish the job, and the relationship is always coming from a business perspective.

And when a project is going to take weeks or months, you need to give everyone more motivation than "It'll be fun, guys!" because there is a lot of other fun stuff that takes a lot less time that they'll end up doing instead and pushing the game to the side as a result.

[Sapphi]

As far as the question... I guess it would be, are my feelings correct that somewhere in that action, cutting my friends out of the game, there would be some spite and meanness in there? And if that is correct, I probably shouldn't do that.

What? It's not like you're obligated to make the whole game by yourself after they decided not to help you! If you're the only one doing it, you can do whatever the heck you want. And it's not spite and meanness. If I were working on a collab and someone dropped out, it wouldn't be spiteful to swap their character out. I would be more worried that I would get spiteful because I had to sit there writing their story for them.

I feel your pain about unmotivated friends. I generally hate doing anything in groups, because either someone steps up and tramples all over my ideas, rendering my input completely useless, or I become the leader and end up doing most of the work myself. And in general I have found that it is more efficient to work alone than with friends...