Path structures

[junna]

For example, if the protagonist has to choose between going to the library or the gym at the beginning of the story, should the story assume that the characters you meet at the library would still be at the library even if you chose to go to the gym?

I would still put him in the gym. I guess... it would give the story a bit more depth to it. Like in Magical Diary from Hanako, the demon student is still searching for a person to suck the life out even though if you're on his route, he'd still suck you.

[TrickWithAKnife]

@TrickWithAKnife: Have you played Dragon Age: Origins? I think that type of free-flowing structure would be completely and utterly awesome as a Visual Novel, though I can't think of any that have done it that way. The type of story that I want to tell is a bit more linear, and the events are very chronologically-dependent on each other (This event has to take place before this event, That event has to take place after the other event, etc.)

Unfortunately I haven't played any Dragon Age games.
There are some things that need to be done in order, particularly in the start of the game, but as it progresses, it becomes less linear.
There are actual language lessons within the game too, and those will need to be linear as well, just to make the study work better.
But generally events will have some degree of freedom to them. But the world itself will be as consistent as I can make it.
For example, If it rains in the afternoon in day 3, then it will do that no matter what the main character may be doing at that point.

Right now I'm struggling with deciding whether each path should be set in their own alternate universe, or if each choice should only affect the protagonist and the people they directly affect.

For example, if the protagonist has to choose between going to the library or the gym at the beginning of the story, should the story assume that the characters you meet at the library would still be at the library even if you chose to go to the gym?

I strongly agree with consistency. It could involve more work for you, but it means each play-through will be different.
I'm doing everything I can to make sure no-one has exactly the same experience when they play my game, and I love anyone else who does the same.

Decisions have weight when the player realises they could miss something important due to their choices. They start to care about what they choose. They pay attention to what happened or was said beforehand.

[papillon]

I've seen games written both ways, but I personally find it confusing and irritating if a story is inconsistent between branches for no reason. The benefit of branching stories, to me, is being able to see different aspects of the same situation. You put all of these different facets together in your mind to create a deeper understanding of the story/setting.

Obviously a choice can itself cause changes - your PC going to the gym might cause characters in the library to come to the gym looking for you if they had some reason to look for you. But people just happening to do different things because you did different things while they had no way to know and no reason to care... that rings false. And in stories where the *backstory* changes based on your actions now, how can you get any sense of the world at all if absolutely everything about it changes? This makes it easy to confuse the reader because they may not remember what happened in which universe.

It can be done - I know there are romantic games where things like - which character did you make the Childhood Marriage Promise with, which character is Secretly Trying To Kill You, which character is your Long Lost Sibling, will all change based on whose romance path you are following. For me, I would be happier if they were clearly set up as separate stories that you chose from the beginning, rather than the backstory altering itself as I went along.

One thing that's bugging me in my playthrough of Kara no Shoujo is that, for a mystery, it does not play perfectly fair. Characters are changing their actions for no logical reason. For a meta reason it seems to be that if I've missed clues and am therefore headed for a bad end, the game will cause things to happen to kill me off. But the characters whose actions have altered could not possibly have known that I missed a clue somewhere. There's no reason for them to do what they're doing. And trying to figure out why they're acting and preventing it is actually hindering my progress because what I *really* need to do is find a lost clue that has nothing to do with the people killing me. Argh.

[CaseyLoufek]

Agree completely. Changes in story from a play through should occur if

A) The player did something which directly and logically affects this. Doesn't have to be immediately obvious how but if none of these chains are clear you then you have a problem.
B) It is something dynamic and random. A random encounter with monsters in an RPG, who you randomly meet in the hallway in class on Tues. Not all VNs even have something in this category and when these sort of things do occur the fact they aren't totally predictable is usually obvious and the total effect of each one is usually small.

As for backstory and dynamic past, I can handle that to some level. Remembering a Childhood Marriage Promise after some time, and it being different depending on what my actions in this playthrough determine would be retroactively likely is one thing; changing the Long Lost Sibling like this doesn't work unless your game involves time/dimension distortion in the first place.

[athenastar17]

@OokamiKasumi: FreePlane is GREAT! Unlike Inklewriter, which I think is just fine, but...eh...Inklewriter is a bit bulky. I don't need something that flashy to simply be a nonlinear graph, and I'd like to see the whole story in one screen by default. Thanks for posting this! I am a bit sad that FP doesn't really support moving bubbles around, but hey. Free infovis program. I'm fine with it.

Also, there was something I was wondering about. When you write a branching story, how much emphasis should you put on the individual storylines vs the over-arching storyline? Do you consider the "story" of the VN to be each individual path, or do you consider the story to be the sum of the paths put together. Right now I'm struggling with deciding whether each path should be set in their own alternate universe, or if each choice should only affect the protagonist and the people they directly affect.

For example, if the protagonist has to choose between going to the library or the gym at the beginning of the story, should the story assume that the characters you meet at the library would still be at the library even if you chose to go to the gym?

I think it's more realistic - and more immersing - to act as though the world still goes on, whether or not you're in it. After all, nothing is quite so wonderful as when you're running around Skyrim and you happen upon both a giant hulking thing and a dragon at the same time...just your luck...and instead of killing you, they promptly ignore you and start fighting each other. It's then that you realize this world is bigger than you, and it's a living, breathing entity in itself.

So the characters who would spend time in the library (unless they're only there to see you) would still spend time in the library. Major events that happen in their lives on a set day every playthrough still happen whether you're involved with them or not. Actually, it might be cool to have it affect other characters - like "I was going to go to they gym, but they're holding some kind of theater competition in there that's important to Susan's storyline and not mine. Let's go out to the park instead."

Of course, while you want to make sure the NPCs' lives go on without you, you also want to make sure that the player's choices have a very obvious effect on those untouched storylines.... If Susan's storyline involved you convincing the school not to disband the drama club, then there wouldn't be a theater competition in there if you ignored that storyline...and so on. It's always cool to do a second playthrough, make different choices, and have other possible outcomes referenced...because you don't get it the first time. You only get it the second time, and it hits you like a ton of bricks. There's your replay value right there.

EDIT: Sorry, the forums lied to me and told me there were no new posts. I ended up repeating a lot of what was already said

[Rosstin]

This is a truly wonderful thread.

[OokamiKasumi]

@OokamiKasumi: FreePlane is GREAT! Unlike Inklewriter, which I think is just fine, but...eh...Inklewriter is a bit bulky. I don't need something that flashy to simply be a nonlinear graph, and I'd like to see the whole story in one screen by default. Thanks for posting this! I am a bit sad that FP doesn't really support moving bubbles around, but hey. Free infovis program. I'm fine with it.

I use FreePlane to design all my games. It's just so much easier when you can SEE where the threads go, and what still needs to be finished. I'm rather disappointed myself that you can only move the bubbles left or right, but I figure it's only a matter of time before that changes.

[Aedin]

Right now I'm struggling with deciding whether each path should be set in their own alternate universe, or if each choice should only affect the protagonist and the people they directly affect.

For example, if the protagonist has to choose between going to the library or the gym at the beginning of the story, should the story assume that the characters you meet at the library would still be at the library even if you chose to go to the gym?

I strongly agree with consistency. It could involve more work for you, but it means each play-through will be different.
I'm doing everything I can to make sure no-one has exactly the same experience when they play my game, and I love anyone else who does the same.

Decisions have weight when the player realises they could miss something important due to their choices. They start to care about what they choose. They pay attention to what happened or was said beforehand.

I personally can't stand when the plot changes completely just because of what you chose. The world does not revolve around you. Yes, your choices can influence events, but everything that happens in the past, present, and future should not stem from your preference.

Example: The iPod/iPad visual novel-like game Shall We Date: Heian Love. Great art, cute romances, horrible English translations but that's beside the point.

The point of the game is you receive a poem from a mystery suitor. At the end of the prologue, you pick who you want to romance. That makes the person you picked the poet. When I played through it, my reaction was, "Uh, what?" So, seven(?) guys all sent me a poem, but I only got one? What happened to the other men who are supposedly in love with me?

Consistency, consistency, consistency.

[SBG_Eric]

...I really like the "Point of no Return" structure, but I was wondering: What other path structures do you know of, or would like to see more of? Are there any specific story types that benefit from specific choice structures, or vice versa?

When I was making Faery Tale, I had only created Kinetic novels; straightforward, linear stories with pictures and music. However, for this story I needed Multiple Paths. So, like you, I went looking for ideas.

However, I simply did not like the story structures I saw in the VNs everyone else seemed to like. So I created a plot structure that suited my story's needs.

PlotFocused.jpg

There are escape routes, but those tend to lead to Plot-Twists and Unexpected ends.

That's actually a really interesting system to use. Is the "Escape" an end each way or is it a return to the starting point?

[OokamiKasumi]

...However, I simply did not like the story structures I saw in the VNs everyone else seemed to like. So I created a plot structure that suited my story's needs. ... There are escape routes, but those tend to lead to Plot-Twists and Unexpected ends.

That's actually a really interesting system to use. Is the "Escape" an end each way or is it a return to the starting point?

It depends on the story's needs. Some do lead to dead ends, but others simply jump to another route; another branch of the story. The trick is to guess how the player will React to a given situation, and offer them an 'escape' from their current route to another (not necessarily better) route.