To Girls: Concerning games lacking Female Perspective

[Viniciuskk]

Hmm...Maybe she thinks she should, as a duty, maybe the monsters killed her father?

This, +

What really matters is to have a motive,

BOOOOM!!! An awesome idea surged in my head. Love ya!!

Her father died after she was already trained by the hunters, but I'm changing this... Mwhahahaha /killherwholefamilyandfriends

...In the most dramatic, tragic way possible.

[Zylinder]

On the discussion: Maybe you should consider that the gender of the MC is less relevant than the question of 'Who is this game pandering to?'

The reverse can be true: You can play a game about a gay guy who's running around having fluffy romances with seniors from his high school while they accidentally flash their sweaty naked selves at you. You're playing as a guy, sure, but it's likely that it's pandering to both women and gay men.

So let's make some sweeping generalizations that women find both half-naked men and heavily armored men attractive, so that's what games use when pandering to women. Then let's make another sweeping generalization that men find scantily clad women attractive, so that's what games use when pandering to men.

To get back on track: I'm judging solely from the screenshots and what little I know of the games that you linked. And the answer is no, I don't think the fact that those games contained any sort of blatant pandering that might annoy females. They're just games that happen to have female MCs.

[Aines445]

Hmm...Maybe she thinks she should, as a duty, maybe the monsters killed her father?

This, +

What really matters is to have a motive,

BOOOOM!!! An awesome idea surged in my head. Love ya!!

Her father died after she was already trained by the hunters, but I'm changing this... Mwhahahaha /killherwholefamilyandfriends

Wow, I don't even know how I do it O.O XD. I guess you're gonna do some major changes in the story, so maybe saying my thoughts about the demo is kinda useless XD (Just played it, that was like 2 minutes), So I'll be looking forward to those changes!

(Heeey, weren't we discussing female perspectives??? OH WELLZ XD)

[Viniciuskk]

To get back on track: I'm judging solely from the screenshots and what little I know of the games that you linked. And the answer is no, I don't think the fact that those games contained any sort of blatant pandering that might annoy females. They're just games that happen to have female MCs.

Sorry if I wasn't very clear. I meant to ask if the MC's in those games sounded like real people. If the author did not end up giving them a male perspective of the world by accident, or not necessarily male, but a perspective that doesn't match their character or what they said in a certain spot of the game (You'd need to play the game though.)


------------

(Heeey, weren't we discussing female perspectives??? OH WELLZ XD)

LOL yes, I myself forgot about that

[Auro-Cyanide]

Actually, there is a way to measure female perspective, it's called the Bechdel test. It's a test first brought up by a female comic book artist and is originally applicable to movies. The test is simple.

1. There are 2 female characters.
2. That talk to each other.
3. About something other than a man.

With the suggested agendum that it should be for more than 30 sec so it has more chance of being plot relevant and a suggestion that for games it means having a playable female character.

There are a surprising amount of movies that fail this test. This does not make them bad movies, but it does prove the point that there is a lack of balance in gender perspective. And that's only talking about it in a binary form.

For games this is a little harder to measure, because just because 2 female characters might talk about something not related to a man, it might make up such a tiny fraction that it is irrelevant since games in general are longer than movies. Things to look out for:

- Is playing as a female an option?
- Does the story revolve around a man or a woman?
- Who is the most central figure apart from the protagonist?
- Are female specific topics discussed? This could be anything from motherhood to their social role.

Basically you are looking for things that are directly related to the female characters without there being a man involved.
I'll also link this since it discusses to some degree what female specific topics could be. Unfortunately male perspective is often seen as default. That's why it's social okay for women to 'act like men' because that is a good thing, but a man 'acting like a girl' is seen as something horrible that he should stop doing right this minute. It's pretty obvious why that isn't healthy for anyone.

[Tempus]

There seems to be a prevalent view that you can make a female character more physically stronger, tomboyish and generally a "badass" and that this will result in her being a strong character. This is, in my eyes, false. Making a female character more like a stereotypical alpha male does not make her stronger and actually works against achieving a female perspective. This is not to say a female character can't have bulging muscles and a desire for revenge, however. Also, just as with males, a focus on strength over tact and a lack of emotional control is a character flaw; a well rounded (and hence believable) character has flaws and - at least relatively speaking - strengths.

Most women [disclaimer: I know nothing about women] have sexual desires as well as a desire to be sexually appealing. Removing this aspect removes part of who the women is. (Though obviously nobody would particularly care how sexually appealing they are during a zombie apocalypse.) Sexual desire and appeal is but one aspect of a woman and they can't define who she is alone. Even the most shallow, ditzy woman has her own history, desires and fears. In short, women are people. I don't think it's necessary to discuss female specific issues or have a female player character in order to present their perspective, though it's still worth looking out for - you probably do want to examine them when they're relevant.

What else. I guess I'd close by saying that I think in most "western" societies, women are equal in law, but not in practice. I don't think there's a conspiracy to screw women over; in some areas they get the short end of the stick, in others they don't. I think it's simply a hang-over from older generations that will (hopefully) gradually disappear. Perhaps try to imagine what it's like growing up and living as a female. What toys are you bought? What colour clothes are you given and what's the implication? How late are you allowed to stay out compared to your brothers? Why is this? How do you feel about this? Whose name is traditionally taken at marriage and why is this? What line of work are you encouraged to participate in? What prospects do you have in your job compared to men? What's it like having males online become weird when they find out you're a girl? What sort of effect does the constant advertising and other assorted media have on you with it's idealised (and often sexualised) images?

Actually, there is a way to measure female perspective, it's called the Bechdel test.

You saved me bringing that up. About all I'll add to what you said is that movies and games can pass the Bechdel test but still fail to adequately represent female characters in a story. Conversely, a story can fail the test but still not be sexist or even male oriented. Not that I'm downing the test or anything, I'm just saying it's no guarantee. Useful though.

[Amorphous]

There seems to be a prevalent view that you can make a female character more physically stronger, tomboyish and generally a "badass" and that this will result in her being a strong character.

Then people are confusing being physically / mentally strong with being a well-developed character. 'Strong character' in context has nothing to do with a character's abilities, and everything to do with a character's....character, for lack of a better word (believability? humanity? I guess it'd depend on what story you're writing).

The thing with writing fiction, though, including games, is that no matter how you slice your characters, they aren't really people. They are figments of an imagination written down in a tangible form, and the end goal is to try to make them appear as lifelike as possible. Even if you base a character off of someone in real life, that character is not real in and of itself (himself? herself?) - unless you're writing your autobiography (and even then, sometimes not), you can't possibly know every aspect of a person and what makes him or her act or think the way he or she does.

Having a 'female perspective', I believe, is sort of the same concept...it is an aspect of life that helps to shape and sometimes define people, and putting it in games or books, etc. is a way of making the characters more lifelike. In order to do that, you have to know what it is in real life, and understand some of life's concepts and society's pressures that are exclusively female, so you don't end up 'taking the easy way out' and stereotyping. Personalities, appearances, etc...every aspect of a person has some reason for being there, and part of making a 'strong' character is to understand why that character dresses that way, or thinks that way. For me, that involves reading large amounts of nonfiction and researching history.

With action games, it might be a bit harder to pull off, because you have to balance narrative with gameplay, and sometimes you're not looking to make the most realistic character. But for VNs, it should be entirely possible, even if the MC is male.

Also, on a personal note, I'm a bit miffed at the lack of older female characters in games / movies / comics. Books I leave out, because they don't involve visuals (and are typically a lot more varied), but it's okay for a man to visibly age on screen, and not a woman?

[Viniciuskk]

1. There are 2 female characters.
2. That talk to each other.
3. About something other than a man.

Well, looks like my game does pass on this test. Thanks for the insight. I wasn't running into a lack of female perspective at all as it seems, but events were happening on a much too fast pace.

The video was very helpful too

Thanks you two :>

EDIT:

Also, on a personal note, I'm a bit miffed at the lack of older female characters in games / movies / comics. Books I leave out, because they don't involve visuals (and are typically a lot more varied), but it's okay for a man to visibly age on screen, and not a woman?

Well, my main project, Spring Breeze, does have an old female character, and she has a path of her own (but obviously, you don't get to date her O_O) :>


You're right too on that lack of character. Since everything was happening to quickly, my MC didn't sound anywhere believable, even less like a normal woman.


Aya, from Mad Father, although her personality is far from being acceptable in "society standards"

(Because in the end, she ends up taking her father's role in making dolls out of people.)

, her creator modelled her psychology very well, and she does seem to be alive.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Also, on a personal note, I'm a bit miffed at the lack of older female characters in games / movies / comics. Books I leave out, because they don't involve visuals (and are typically a lot more varied), but it's okay for a man to visibly age on screen, and not a woman?

Troublingly, I think this is a, perhaps unconscious, result of some old-school messed up societal pressures. Women have often been defined by their fertility, or lack there of, resulting historically in women being seen as more valuable the younger they are. Conversely, men are often seen as more valuable the older they are - in our patriarchal societies, men tend to amass more power and wealth the older they are, AND they can still father children, and those children are better off financially and socially than the children of younger men.

This creates a situation where writer's (many of which are male) consciously or unconsciously gravitate to older men and younger women when creating "ideal" characters. So I think the reason you can often see a man age visibly on screen, but rarely see a woman do the same, is that aging is considered a positive for men, and a negative for women. You can sadly see this reflected in the careers of many actresses, who have difficulty getting roles after a certain age, while male actors often have long and unbroken careers without regard to their age.

[Aines445]

There seems to be a prevalent view that you can make a female character more physically stronger, tomboyish and generally a "badass" and that this will result in her being a strong character. This is, in my eyes, false. Making a female character more like a stereotypical alpha male does not make her stronger and actually works against achieving a female perspective. This is not to say a female character can't have bulging muscles and a desire for revenge, however. Also, just as with males, a focus on strength over tact and a lack of emotional control is a character flaw; a well rounded (and hence believable) character has flaws and - at least relatively speaking - strengths.

Even if it is false, in a lot of games, guys have the guns or swords and kill stuff and all, so (at least that's my way of thinking) I would like to have the same fun doing that, but with a girl, but that never gets to be the case, and that would be the only reason I'd want that (At least me, since I can't really speak for someone else), so I don't really think it's a matter of "Oh, if I make a badass and mega strong female character she'll TOTALLY be realistic!", it's more like "It'd totally be cool if for a change there would be a badass mega strong female character in a game!". Since you can't really do that in real-life, in a game you can, because it's not real. But really, I'd rather have a strong-willed female character. The thing is, there are girls that are strong-willed, and others that are not, but when they overdo the latter option, it gets annoying. Like how men can be weak, but others can be strong, everyone has different qualities and flaws, whether physical or psychological. Which is why I was saying it was hard to explain a "female perspective", and I'm a girl.

1. There are 2 female characters.
2. That talk to each other.
3. About something other than a man.

Women can talk about men, but they also have other subjects, so I guess that test must be good enough. I never really heard of it, so I might give it a try in my ideas.

[SundownKid]

The funny thing is, people always assume "well, it's more realistic if the guy has a sword and kills stuff!" when it's actually not realistic either way, since often they have magic to boost their power or are far stronger than many players/readers would ever be. Now, it's not like males aren't, on average, stronger, but since you are the "hero" of the story, assuming we're talking about an RPG here where you do a lot of fighting, you are above-average anyway, so it shouldn't really matter. An RPG hero who's a woman could pretty much crush a typical guy without any fighting experience or special skills.

[Boomsickle]

The majority of games being made on here are otome games and the majority of those games are being made by girls so i dont see how theres a lack of female perspective.

[CSJ]

I think it's possible to be a physically strong women, it isn't always about the intellect. Appearance-wise, if you put your female character in a bikini in a battle field, would that be acceptable if it was a man? No, so don't do it for your female character either, as the first rule. (That's what I meant by my first statement.)

This video might help put this into perspective. Of course, there are females that are physically-strong, it's just that anyone attempting to use said strength is belittled into the ground. Note the disgusting nature of the comments on said link. The gaming image of scantily-clad slender women is entirely inaccurate compared to reality (do any of those players look like that stereotype to you?), but it persists because it is always presumed that the primary audience for such computer games are male teens/young adults.

Of course, that begs the question of why this persists in Otome games as well. Are these games made by women, or men? Do both share the unrealistic expectations about the appearance of strong female characters? Is it part of an assumption that the player character must always be beautiful (or at least moderately good-looking) by public standards?

The Fable series is an example of a game that does have muscular female characters, albeit, a little over-the-top in the case of Fable II. But I have seen very few players happy about seeing their swashbuckling swordsman (or hammer-wielding 'tank') having beefier arms, and a stockier frame. At least, not for the female PC... Apparently, they are not 'beautiful' enough for player tastes. Do the female gamers here feel the same?

[dramspringfeald]

The problem about "Female perspective" is that so far as today's modern interpretation varies quite a bit. We have girls ranging from "prissy princess" down to "truck mechanic" and quite literally everything in between. Which has been the issue making games FOR girls. We don't really know what they want and really most of them don't either.

Guys however are rather "simple" when it comes to games. Point us in a direction and tell us to Kill or collect. We come in about 3 or 4 flavors. "Shooter" "RPG" "RTS" "Puzzle" Our Stories are either "Storm the Castle" or "save the girl" and in reality those are SO much easier to write. You take the "complex story" out of most games and you can boil it all down to them. Take most of the Final Fantasy's remove the HOURS of Dialog and you have "Sorry your princess is in another castle." Halo even with the 20 minuets of Dialog "See that ship? Kill that ship." you put some witty banter, kill off characters one by one and you are golden. CoD "They nuked America and that's bad. See that base? Yeah kill that base." Other then Need to Know most gamers will skip the dialog and just go wreck some digital domain for the next few hours. Hell the only reason MMO's have chat is to draw in women to the "internal politics of which character did what to whom."

In short, there is little Female Perspective in gaming because even they have no clue what they want. Which is cool that means we will be getting a LOT more games with far more interesting characters once they start making it into the main stream.

[Taleweaver]

In short, there is little Female Perspective in gaming because even they have no clue what they want. Which is cool that means we will be getting a LOT more games with far more interesting characters once they start making it into the main stream.

Strange. Most of the women I talk to seem to know what they want, even in terms of gaming. I seem to find a general consensus that games should be

a) cooperative instead of competetive
b) constructive instead of destructive
c) more character-centric than plot-centric

Casual minigames and apps see a lot of female players, especially those where you build something (Farmville comes to mind). Same with VNs, whose player base seems to be more female than male (not counting eroges, who mostly appeal to men). So I'd say that if a game both appeals to these "technical needs" AND includes a chance for women to find positive role models in the characters, this should be a good first step.

From there, of course, women are as diverse as men in their specific interests and preferences.