The Edutainment Discussion Thread

[LeonGuisti]

When learning a language, you should learn it the way native speakers do.

I agree and disagree with this. Japanese is a lot like German and Spanish in that it has a "polite" way of speaking. I'm not at all fluent in Japanese, but from everything I've picked up, you speak to your parents, professors, and elders in a vastly different way than you'd speak to a friend or sibling. There's an advantage in explaining this to the student (something that Rosetta Stone doesn't do at all). I would have saved a ton of time if someone had explained to me that Sie in German is a lot like the Spanish Usted or in some ways like the archaic English thou.

Other than that though, you're right. The more time you spend translating something, the slower you get. Being textbook taught in a language often means the student will look at root words and waste time conjugating verbs. By the time you get to that point in a language, it should come natural.

[TrickWithAKnife]

I don't disagree with what you've said. As far as learning language through a VN, there should be cases where the different language required for different situations should be pointed out, and after that, a lot of it can be learned and reinforced through context.

I like the idea of guiding the "player" initially, and once they are starting to get the idea, letting them figure things out through context.

Fortunately with a language like Japanese, it's quite easy to recognize the difference between casual and general polite speech, even for beginners.

I sometimes wonder what to call someone who partakes in an educational VN. Are they students, players, users, or something else?

[noeinan]

I wonder how many people have been considering making educational titles, and the methods they'll employee.

Personally I'm working on a game to teach survival and some conversational Japanese, Hiragana and Katakana. Possibly a little Kanji too, but I'm still deciding how realistic that is.

I know that Uncle Mugen released an educational VN on the history of marijuana a while back. I have made two short visual novels for my class this quarter, and I recall Vialixia said they made some for their university.

On the topic of learning other languages, I wonder how well a game would do if it posed a kind of realistic situation for the player. Like, they get transported to another world and have to learn the language and the game included a lot of dialogue from characters in the native language that the player doesn't understand at first. But someone at least speaks English (or the player's native language) and learning how to speak Japanese or whatever was incorporated into the game.

There are all kinds of plots that could go along with this, but I was thinking of a "prophecy" type situation, you might be the savior but you don't know at first since you can't understand. Eventually, as you learn the language, all these plots and political ploys are revealed to you. Or perhaps you're in a world where the dominant group speaks your language, but there is a small rebel force made of people from another country. You learn their language (maybe while being a spy for the dominant group?) and eventually learn their side of the story and begin to question your loyalties.

Might be hard to pull of, though.

The Miller test (also called the Three Prong Obscenity Test[1]), is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited.
===
The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California.[2] It has three parts:

Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,

Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.[3]

The work is considered obscene only if all three conditions are satisfied.

O.O The more you know...

[xavimat]

I'm interested too in educational games. I made (an ugly) one looong ago (http://perso.wanadoo.es/javimat/sis/yes ... edidos.htm).

Educational games can be useful and easy, for instance, in Geography.

[Vialixia]

I know that Uncle Mugen released an educational VN on the history of marijuana a while back. I have made two short visual novels for my class this quarter, and I recall Vialixia said they made some for their university.

Yeah, the novel I made was about the use of Palm Oil in products. The reason I picked this particular format was because of the concise way it combines images, text and audio, the fact that users can progress through the game at their own pace, and have consistent access to that information when they need it. As a base, there are 3 types of learners, and visual novels are capable of covering all three.

I can see this being useful for the Japanese language, or in fact any language, because of the different ways you can convey the same message. The best thing I've found for learning Japanese is being 'reminded' about things you've already learnt. This is something that is necessary for remembering a language long term. You need to be reminded of previously learned topics over a period of weeks, until it sticks, and that's something that can be done in the visual novel form. Being able to give user input into what you know well, and what you need to more of, and the frequency that those things appear, is something I've found very useful.

I don't know if that's part of your plan 'TrickWithAKnife.'

I think why I found Rosetta Stone to be not that useful, is because it doesn't explain anything. Which in fact, is what it claims to be one of it's selling points. The reason I like Japanese is because it's rules (well, the basics from what I know) are generally fairly consistent, and inconsistencies are listable. So, by knowing these, you can apply them until it becomes natural or second nature. Rosetta Stone just has you remembering lists of words in a sort of fake-context situation. It just didn't work for me.

[noeinan]

I wanted to interject about Japanese real quick-- the best online resource I have found so far is Tim's Takamatsu: http://ww8.tiki.ne.jp/~tmath/home/

Super informative, awesome explanations. If it was in visual novel format it would only be more awesome!

[KittyKatStar]

I'm so glad to see this much passion about Edutainment or games using tools/elements to help teach. ^_^

I admit I keep joking about making educatome games (education/otome), but the next one I'm tackling will actually contain information covering archaeology, anthropology, geology and, to a lesser extent, biology and basic French. Two of the love interests are heavily involved in science, while the other two have their own passions (art/travel etc). Of course since it's also a romance game, I'll have to brainstorm how to balance them both without feeling one is not represented enough, or too invasive. (i.e. if the players *just* want to focus on the romance, they don't feel forced to learn facts if they don't want to.)

Depending how it goes, and the feedback, I wouldn't mind continuing creating games like that again. I personally love historical settings, and seeing it represented as characters live their lives in those time periods. The manga Otoyomegatari is a *perfect* example.

[TrickWithAKnife]

On the topic of learning other languages, I wonder how well a game would do if it posed a kind of realistic situation for the player. Like, they get transported to another world and have to learn the language and the game included a lot of dialogue from characters in the native language that the player doesn't understand at first. But someone at least speaks English (or the player's native language) and learning how to speak Japanese or whatever was incorporated into the game.

This was my original idea, but it was fiercely unpopular with testers. Basically, the player is walking into an information overload, and even if it's just for a short time, it puts them in the frame of mind that "This is going to be too hard". It seems that most people prefer to be eased into it gently.

There are all kinds of plots that could go along with this, but I was thinking of a "prophecy" type situation, you might be the savior but you don't know at first since you can't understand. Eventually, as you learn the language, all these plots and political ploys are revealed to you.

I've been thinking about doing something like this, but perhaps halfway through the game, where the player should have a bit of Japanese under their belt, but not enough to get the full meaning. The problem there is that some players may already have strong Japanese abilities, and be able to understand right away. I have set up methods for checking the player's Japanese abilities, and to adjust game content and difficulty, but it's never going to be foolproof.

The best thing I've found for learning Japanese is being 'reminded' about things you've already learnt. This is something that is necessary for remembering a language long term. You need to be reminded of previously learned topics over a period of weeks, until it sticks, and that's something that can be done in the visual novel form. Being able to give user input into what you know well, and what you need to more of, and the frequency that those things appear, is something I've found very useful.

I don't know if that's part of your plan 'TrickWithAKnife.'

Kind of. Of course it's very important, but I doubt players are going to playing through my VN regularly for months. There simply isn't enough time to create that much content, and people tend to play games for longer periods. I may add a note before the game actually starts that mentions the study portions are more effective if done in small doses over a longer period, but I'm not sure if anyone will want to play like that.

What I am doing is having plenty of review after certain vocabulary or grammar are taught. Here's an example:

The protagonist is able to attend Japanese lessons once a week. These are completely optional though, and the contents of the lessons will vary depending on what the player already knows.
If the player is very new to Japanese, then one of the early lessons (or perhaps spread over 2. Depends what the playtesters think) will be about numbers.
Not long after this lesson, the protagonist will need to buy a bicycle. If they choose to go bicycle shopping with Chihiro (a bilingual character who acts as a guide for many things, such as answering questions about language, culture, and so on), she will talk a lot about different prices, comparing different bicycles to each other.

The player will hear a lot of numbers through this, but at first it will all be passive. They will have time to process what is being said, and see the price tags to have a visual connection. After that, they'll also be able to join in a little, to explain which one they want.

But everything is subject to change. This is just part of my current plan.
I think edutainment titles require a lot more testing than regular VNs, because not only do you have to check for bugs, and whether the game is actually enjoyable, but you also have to make sure the pacing is ideal, and the content is easy to understand.

[noeinan]

This was my original idea, but it was fiercely unpopular with testers. Basically, the player is walking into an information overload, and even if it's just for a short time, it puts them in the frame of mind that "This is going to be too hard". It seems that most people prefer to be eased into it gently.

I can definitely see that. :/ If there's only one character you can talk to I'd imagine that it's a bunch of gibberish to the player at first (everyone except the one character who guides you.)

I've been thinking about doing something like this, but perhaps halfway through the game, where the player should have a bit of Japanese under their belt, but not enough to get the full meaning. The problem there is that some players may already have strong Japanese abilities, and be able to understand right away. I have set up methods for checking the player's Japanese abilities, and to adjust game content and difficulty, but it's never going to be foolproof.

I was thinking that the game could have full Japanese text in the beginning, with the expectation that they don't understand it. But, it adds to the replayability because the person can start over and understand things that led up to some of the events later in the game. And perhaps for someone who already understands, this could be more like foreshadowing.

I personally love historical settings, and seeing it represented as characters live their lives in those time periods. The manga Otoyomegatari is a *perfect* example.

Thanks for recommending this! I'd seen it around before but hadn't actually read it. Just starting now and it's great! I also like Saiunkoku Monogatari, a historical piece about a woman in a fictional country (mixed China-Korea-Japan), who first becomes the emperors wife in order to teach him how to rule a kingdom and continues on to become quite a powerful force in the country! (I won't spoil too much, though.)

[TrickWithAKnife]

I was thinking that the game could have full Japanese text in the beginning, with the expectation that they don't understand it. But, it adds to the replayability because the person can start over and understand things that led up to some of the events later in the game. And perhaps for someone who already understands, this could be more like foreshadowing.

Replayability is very useful, but I've had concerns about development time, and adding enough varied content to make the player want to replay many times would be a massive workload on top of an already massive workload.

I do have one character that I'd been on the fence about adding who doesn't speak (although his hearing is fine), but instead communicates by writing Japanese. If the player studies writing, then they can communicate with him to find out his story, and find out why he doesn't/can't speak. If someone is new to Japanese writing, they mightn't be able to do it on the first playthrough, but could on the second. It also provides a little reward for those who study Japanese writing, as I want to encourage it without being too forceful. Rewards, not punishment.

There are two protagonists, so hopefully people will play at least twice. Their stories are fairly similar in many ways, but they will have different perspectives of some of the same events, and some things that only happen for one protagonist.

Phew, I'm talking about my project far too much, but this is where my experience with educational VNs has come from.

[Vialixia]

@TrickWithAKnife, well that sounds excellent in my opinion! Actually, come to think of it, the time that I've learnt the most Japanese in the shortest space of time is actually in Japan. And that was from doing the simple things that I had to do to get by. If you can replicate that kind of environment in a gaming situation you've described, then I think it'll work really well. You are then reiterating things without it being too 'in your face' about doing so (and being overly repetitive, like Rosetta Stone.) Same vocabulary, but different contexts.

[unknown5]

i've been working on a self-study program using myself as a guinea pig.
a problem i keep encountering is that the novelty factor wears off quickly.
i then come up with a new idea/approach and it keeps my attention for
a week or two, but then it wears off again.

i think i know what i need to do to crack this problem, but urgh ...
it'll take a lot of work.

[TrickWithAKnife]

How about using a combination of methods?

Also, I'm curious about what you are teaching yourself. Different methods would work better for different subjects.

This week and the following, I have parent observations. I teach all ages of students, but during this 2 week period, the parents of the children I teach can observe the lessons, and give a review of both the lesson and of my teaching style.
One of the positive comments that keep coming up is that the parents noticed I do an activity just long enough for the children to enjoy it, then switch to the next one before they get bored. The contents are connected, but the methods vary.

In my humble opinion, educational games should be the same. It's a lot more work to figure out the right balance, but keeping things varied without making it too chaotic should help the players stay interested.

[unknown5]

it'll be a universal study-aid. like flashcards.
thus the severe boredom issues and need to keep things interesting.

[TrickWithAKnife]

If you are using a VN engine, perhaps have a character who provides feedback on the fly. For example, they could compare your recent progress with your progress earlier and tell you if you are getting better, or perhaps provide tips on the things that the user is struggling with.

I sometimes use flashcards when I'm teaching children. They are designed for language learning, but adapting activities should be fairly easy. Perhaps something might be useable for you. Anyway, here's some short games I do with physical flashcards:

• Spread some cards around the room, say the name of one, and get the students to race to touch it, but they must also say the name when they touch it. Easily adaptable to clicking on a screen. We would consider this a TPR (Total Physical Response) activity. Students are listening, speaking, reading (if the cards are words), and physical activities.
• Have a bunch of cards, in pairs, and shuffle them. Place them face down, and students take turn to pick up 2 at a time. The aim is to find a pair. We usually say the name of everything they pick up each time. Good way to drill language without it feeling too forced. A more advanced form would be to have one card in each pair be an image, and the other be the written form.
• Have a lot of different cards, and describe what you want. For example, if I say "It's a yellow fruit", the children would rush to find flashcards of a lemon or banana. The children can only pick up one card at a time though, and they have to say the name of what the picked up before they put it down again.
• Partial reveal. Choose a flashcard (could be a word or image), and hide it behind another card. Slowly slide the obscuring card away so the students gradually see more and more of the obscured card. The idea is to say what the hidden card is as quickly as possible. Could work into a point system.

I might add to this list a little later. A little pressed for time at the moment.