Women and men

[mikey]

Well... the official women & men topic, inspired by a few of the discussions now and some time ago. Knowing the people here, it should be no problem keeping the discussion intelligent.

I like certain things because of rarity in real life, whereas in anime they are prolific. Like miniskirts. Few people outside of nightclubs wear them on a regular basis, just like few girls wear glasses in favor of contacts.

In the end, these are just signals. Glasses are symbolic of intelligence (or at least nerdiness), which is a sign of compatibility. And Man is a symbolic animal. So it pains me to see so many girls who dress up like Britney Spears, convinced that that is how they will look pretty, unaware that that look will only attract the wrong kind of men, the players. I don't know if being social chameloens plays a sort of evolutionary advantage for the female species -- basically you take a cross-section of men and a cross-section of women, and it will be easier to separate the freaks, geeks, and jocks among the men than it is for the women.

It's true, it really does send out the wrong message - to be honest, when I see a woman in a miniskirt in the subway, one that is shorter than just above the knees, in the real world, it's much more likely to produce a smile on my face than erotic attraction - just seeing the process of taking a seat so that you can't see underneath is really funny and often the question in my mind is why she would do this - but nevertheless it really comes down to what you said - the ones this outfit truly attracts are the ones that would typicaly whistle after her, or ones that see in her a challenge - meaning in most cases, the wrong type.

Probably because the sexy secretary in a miniskirt works so great in any given fictional world (anime, VNs), because it's so simple and understandable and fits into the medium - sure movies and games can have depth, but as a whole they are always but a part of the big picture. In the real world, it's not just the romantic first contact and the date, but it's the full complexity of the day - something the VN rarely shows in all its texture. This is more or less the point of entertainment, to have you lose the infinite complexity of RL existence and channel your attention to something smaller (even an epic fantasy book is comparably flat to a morning routine, since in RL you're subconsciously aware of everything). But precisely because of that, the stereotypical outfit evokes that simplified picture. Yes of course she isn't a brainwashed idiot, but the problem still remains, that it's the player she will attract first. It could be a really nice girl, but you wouldn't know, because the player already has her.

[Sailor Kitty]

I guess that depends on tastes. I mean, some of us likes girls in glasses, some like tomboyish types. (I myself like shy boys.)

I, personelly, think miniskirts are quite ugly. But my comment is not that good-I don't wear skirts myself. I dislike ALL skirts. I wear short-shorts instead.

[monele]

Veeery wide topic title there . So... what's the actual topic? The meaning of fashion?... The dangers of being a fashion sheep? I'm not sure what to say without making this clear ^^;

[DaFool]

Please note that I was/ am mostly referring to local women, although I've been to several places around the world for years at a time and know very well cultures and individuals are very different.

I think a more appropriate topic title would be 'Sexual Signaling', which is pretty much what certain fashion signals and what it can mean to women and men. I think it's very important because, despite whatever advances in society regarding "equality' etc etc, the pursuit still lies with the male for the most part. So this 'sexual signaling' is the science of how to analyze dress and initial physical impression to ascertain what kind of a person is behind the appearance so one can more accurately gauge whether there is a good success ratio to be worth approaching...

...or whether the chances are scientifically proven that said person with said appearance is more likely to be incompatible and / or reject you outright at the first opportunity, thus rendering your effort as wasted and futile.

[papillon]

For whatever reason, I find a short-skirted one-piece DRESS to be much more of a sexual signal than a miniskirt. I wouldn't wear either myself, but the sight of a short dress is a lot sexier.

I think among other things the dress can be looser, freer, and allow a woman's body to move in more interesting ways....

[monele]

I'll have to agree with papillon here ^__^...

Well as for other signals... I suppose the way people uh... tend to themselves is another indicator? You'll usually assume a lot of things just from the state of clothes (dirty, well kept, torn on purpose) and their body too (hair, teeth, makeup or not). Without going into extremes, maybe a girl who doesn't wear make-up, doesn't try for fancy haircuts and has simple clothes could be seen just as much as a natural girl who fancies inner things... than as a sloppy girl.
And in that case, it just depends on *why* the girl ends up this way. Is it lazyness or an actual choice to not go fancy?

[Kira]

The psychology and anthropology department in my friend's university did a study of what women like in men, and the results are pretty interesting.

The women were asked to look at a variety of pictures, rate them on attractiveness, and then say whether they would marry them or just date them out of sexual attraction.

The results are that, for the first part, women chose those with features that were more rounded, and more feminine for people they'd rather marry, and those with more angular features (masculine) as those they would date.

So in anime, the Bishonen paradox is kind of answering the female need for someone who not only looks feminine and has seemingly more angular features, to take care of, be taken care of, and date or marry.

[Recca Phoenix]

I wear nothing but short skirts because of the fact that they are more comfortable than long ones, but I wear shorts under them.
Yeah, glasses are totally symbolic, have you ever seen a manga/anime chara that wore glasses that wasn't the "smart" type or nerdy/fragile in some way?
In real life there are totally moronic people and athletic people who wear glasses (as unthinkable as this seems in an anime) but this kind of visual characterization gives a writer less work in description and clues us in.
In hollywood movies as well, glasses=smart. If they weren't part of the character they wouldn't be there.

[Mr. E]

Yeah, glasses are totally symbolic, have you ever seen a manga/anime chara that wore glasses that wasn't the "smart" type or nerdy/fragile in some way?

Rip Van Winkle from the Hellsing manga...
( By the way, I find it very intresting when either mangakas or artists give characters an unexpected appearance, that doesn't combine with the stereotype. I find the surprise... Intresting. What about you people? )

[RPin]

( By the way, I find it very intresting when either mangakas or artists give characters an unexpected appearance, that doesn't combine with the stereotype. I find the surprise... Intresting. What about you people? )

Don't know if it counts as anything, but the protagonist of my galge project is fat and short. I guess it's a departure from the usual slim, elegant bishounen stereotype.

[chronoluminaire]

On a purely personal preference level, I much prefer to see girls in dresses or skirts, rather than shorts or trousers. Long and short can both look good, but I do find shortish skirts/dresses very attractive, even though I'm the stereotype exaggeration of the sensitive bloke and find the idea of "playing the field" rather disgusting.

I like outfits that look like the girl is a free spirit somehow (similar to what monele said about "a natural girl who fancies inner things"). So a long, loose dress is good because it evokes running around in cornfields in summer; but shorts can be good if the girl looks like she's wearing shorts so that she can climb trees

For similar reasons, I really don't like visible makeup.

[monele]

Yeah, invisible makeup ftw :3...

Mm... strangely, I've never really had strong opinions about skirts/dresses/pants. I do like to see dresses in the summer (I noticed that yesterday XD) but I just like the clothes to fit the season. Girls in skirts/dresses when it's getting cold just look silly and done on purpose to show off ô_o...
Plus, I like winter cozy outfits such as the neck turtle sweater... especially if it's the only thing being worn *cough* XD

[DaFool]

I don't see why skirts and dresses may seem sexist to some feminists.

My mother, for example, single-handedly raised me and my brother, putting us both through college. She was my father and mother at the same time (well, I live next to my father now, but that's not the point). She's a self-proclaimed feminist. But what's amazing in that in a country where women young and old would rather wear jeans, she always wears dresses, elegant skirts, or ethnic costumes where appropriate. She says it makes her look like a lady instead of a domestic helper (the common stereotype for a Filipina). And this has proved effective in her business dealings with Indians and Arabs -- as you know the most patriarchal societies around -- she's probably among the most well-liked in her circle, probably because she doesn't force agendas down peoples' throats.

So it would only make logical sense that I have been conditioned to think ever since I was young that if a girl can't wear a dress on a regular basis (pretty much everyone wears a dress for special occasions) -- she's not for me, regardless of whether the reason be superficial or a deeper one.

Probably another reason why I like anime girls so much, they rarely wear pants.

[papillon]

See, I don't think there's anything *wrong* with skirts and dresses, or liking to see girls in skirts and dresses. I do have a problem with people being forced to wear only skirts and dresses. It's only sexist if it's unfair, see.

Demanding that schoolgirls wear short skirts in the middle of winter and freeze their legs off 'because that's what girls should wear!' while the boys get sensible clothes is unfair. Demanding that women in a business environment wear tight skirts, hose, and high heels while the men get to relax is unfair. Now, in any situation where men are required to wear ties, making women keep to an equally ridiculous dress code is not unfair.

Being ordered to put on 'proper' attire to meet with a businessman from another culture may be mildly annoying but it's simply polite to try and compromise on cultural issues as much as possible. It does me no harm to wear a long, non-revealing dress to a meeting. If they order me to be subservient or to provide inappropriate services to the foreign businessman because of his culture, *that's* doing harm. Dressing for someone else's comfort in a business situation is no big deal.

On the other hand, if I get accused of 'forcing an agenda down someone's throat' for wearing pants half the time in my normal everyday life, I will be insulted, yes.

[DaFool]

I'm reminded of some controversy (dunno if it was my college or another) where a group of students protested having to wear skirts that reveal their ankles to match the graduation robes -- they insisted on wearing pants like the men.

In cases like that, I am reminded of something a gay flatmate of mine once said during an afternoon of shopping for clothes... "Dammit! Women get to have all the nice clothes! Why don't they fucking wear them!"