Selling out (theoretical discussion only)

[Asceai]

I didn't mention 'strong focus', but games, when GxG relationships are treated like GxB, game seems so unreal to me. If I'd find a girl for myself I wouldn't be as calm and collected; rather worried that every time we hold hands while walking down a street somebody would observe us... and think all kinds of things.
I usually just don't enjoy games when I find the concept unrealistic.

While I know that in a real Japanese school the student council never gets that sort of autonomy, or that girls don't wear bloomers during phys ed, or that my protagonist's parents didn't really leave him and his little sister to look after themselves when they went flying around the world, I accept these micro-violations of reality in favour of focusing on what the story is actually about. If it's a sappy GxG romance and it's not about homophobia it doesn't need homophobia. In many aspects, we depict something of an idealised simplification of the world so we don't dilute the story we're trying to tell with small crises that aren't related to the overall story.

Put another way, I'm concerned about the economy, unemployment, the situation in East Ukraine, my grandfather's health, my credit card statement, how much I'm paying for electricity, whether I filled out my tax return correctly, whether I need a haircut... but if my protagonist is worried about all these things in your VN there's a problem. Homophobia is a concern for people who are homosexual, and it's of varying degrees depending on where you live-- from being literally a matter of life and death to being just part of a whole litany of things you have to deal with every day. But, when writing a story, you need to focus on the central conflict. If that's homophobia, fair enough, but I think a lot of people would perhaps prefer it be something else.

[Angie]

Of course.

Which wouldn't change my opinion anyway... and, my opinion is all I stated. I also wanted to clarify it in my last post, as I felt I was misunderstood.
There are simplificiations which I also can understand (although, some of them makes the experience less enjoyable), but in this situation I don't feel I could.

Which, doesn't mean nobody would enjoy it, because there are (probably quite a bit) people who doesn't mind simplification like this.
But, I believe, there are also people like me.

[Shoko]

We should show that problem, and high-school background would be great to show bullying.

I'm definitely not looking for a game with a strong focus on how 'hard' it is to be LGBT. I don't need the lesson, and in most cases I'm playing the game because I want to have fun and kiss cute girls! I don't mind it being an element in the setting or a partial feature of one path but it's something to be very careful with, as it can turn into either "ha ha, you're not allowed to be happy! SUCKER!" (making the reader feel cheated) or incredibly lazy villain-writing. A lot of fanfiction features the Evil Man who is evil because he is a man and will launch into rambling diatribes about 'ungodly heathens', try to beat the saintly protagonists with a belt, and then try to rape them, and it's just cringe-inducing.

I don't think I'm alone in this, considering the reaction to moacube's comments on tumblr. There is no shortage of gayngst out there. Being able to just enjoy the romance is much less common.

I didn't mention 'strong focus', but games, when GxG relationships are treated like GxB, game seems so unreal to me. If I'd find a girl for myself I wouldn't be as calm and collected; rather worried that every time we hold hands while walking down a street somebody would observe us... and think all kinds of things.
I usually just don't enjoy games when I find the concept unrealistic.

I understand what you mean. However, how you act and feel in public with a homosexual partner varies a lot with person to person. Being gay myself, thoughts like that would only translate into an offhand remark every once in a while, not something that goes through my head every time we walk outside holding hands. There are some people who have given themselves permission to feel completely guilt free about it for any variety of reasons, some who constantly work themselves through, some who are constantly paranoid, ect.. Its a dilemma a lot of ordinairy couples don't need to worry about, so when a VN wants to not concern itself with sexuality politics like most straight VNs with romance in them, I don't see the problem.

The big thing with a lack of "representation" of gay people in most media I think is simply because it's something that writers who aren't of that sexuality aren't going to gravitate to naturally. It's one thing to write based off your own sexuality, or the massive amount of hetero relationships depicted in media, but once you start to write for a sexuality (or minority, religion, ect.. for that matter) opposite of yours, doubts start to come in. Am I writing this correctly? Should I be doing research about how gay/lesbian couples feel in general in modern society? What are some of the things specific to their gender, sexuality, ect I should be aware of? How much should this information weigh compared to my own knowledge of relationships and love regardless of gender?

Add that to a plot that's concerned with more than depicting relationship and it's much easier for the writer to write for a sexuality he/she knows by instinct and actual experience as opposed to an opposite sexuality with the possibly misguided intentions to make everyone "represented" as opposed to well written.

If we take the "9 out of 10 people are not gay" statistic as-is for example, that would make most of the romantic writers of the world ones who naturally want to write for their own sexuality, which would obviously make for significantly less lgbt centered works in general.

I'm not sure that's really a problem, or something to be "addressed" really. Rather, since there's clearly a demand for lgbt games/media out there, more discussion and debate about how these relationships can be written along with encouraging opportunities for people to broaden their writing horizons via YuriJams or what have you feels like the best action to take IMO.

Basically, stirring up discussion and creation instead of looking for an antidote to a problem that may not even exist.

[kitsubasa]

I'm gay, and working on a GxG game at the moment, and I think that aside from a shortage of dedicated GxG games aimed at women (as opposed to GxB with a GxG option), the other major issue is the fact that most of the GxG romances I see tend to have a fairly narrow set of archetypes they're drawn from. I mean, romances in VNs tend to live and breathe archetypes to a certain extent, it's easy for people to figure out whether they'll like a romance route if it at least starts in an easy-to-read model, but GxG arcs tend to boil down to one of three things whenever I see them. The best friend turned lover, the stoic/mysterious academic one, or the flirtatious bisexual.

There's nothing inherently bad about any of these moulds, but they're repeated an awful lot, and considering the main complaint I see about GxG romance in any medium is 'it's boring', I think having a more expansive range of characters within GxG romances might give them more appeal to a wider audience. For example; there's a shortage of things like adventurous devil-may-care thrillseeker women, more frazzled academic characters (the ones that are messy and out of sorts, instead of calm and sophisticated), gruff barbarians, charming gentlewomen... etcetera, etcetera. GxG would probably be a more exciting genre if it cast a wider net for the two Gs involved-- at least, that's what I think from where I'm standing.

(It might just be personal bias, admittedly, since I'm big on uncouth, roguish characters, and they're kind of lacking in GxG)

[Mad Harlequin]

What you're describing is exactly why characters should be developed as naturally as possible. They'll always fit into one archetype or another, given the origins and nature of storytelling, but we shouldn't try to pull a Cinderella and try to fit the wrong foot into the wrong shoe, so to speak. I find that many stories---whether they're regular novels, visual novels, films, video games, television, or whatever---try to attach various traits to characters without really thinking about whether they produce an interesting and believable result. When that happens, there's little point in caring about a character, because he or she just ends up being a bare-bones variation of a standard mold and would hardly be distinguishable from any number of characters developed from that mold---it's like a writer's palette swap.

[papillon]

GxG arcs tend to boil down to one of three things whenever I see them. The best friend turned lover, the stoic/mysterious academic one, or the flirtatious bisexual.

I've definitely seen the first (hello my avatar) and the last, but I haven't particularly noticed any mysterious academic girls in english GxG game paths. Sounds a bit like some versions of the oneesama very popular in manga though?

One reason I threw the voltage-style 'choose from a list of female bodyguards' concept into the Ideas Dump ages past was that it would be a great gimmick for getting a lot of unusual archetypes out in yuri form. The cocky showoff from a long line of martial artists, the layabout who looks like she's completely blowing the job off to drink until things get dangerous and she gets deadly competent... Not enough plot in my original idea for me to be at all tempted to write it but I'd certainly play.

[Tempus]

As SundownKid said, I think going with a reliable creator would be a good idea. Not necessarily well-known, but a creator with an established track record of completing stuff, being good with money, etc. All the proposals in the OP beside apprenticeship require a lot of risk on the part of the writer who may or may not be chosen but has to produce a script regardless. Not monetary risk, but it's time that all the writers except the selected ones are wasting. By choosing an established creator you know they're good and reliable already. The downside to that is there's not many people producing yuri content as it is (the whole reason you're doing this after all) so finding an established creator who's good and reliable as well as comfortable and competent with yuri content may be difficult.

Also what Auro said about finding people already making yuri stuff. I imagine it'd be easier to find established projects, look at how they're going and then decide whether or not to invest, assuming you could find them.

I'm interested to see how this turns out if you try it.

[rainbowcascade]

If we take the "9 out of 10 people are not gay" statistic as-is for example, that would make most of the romantic writers of the world ones who naturally want to write for their own sexuality, which would obviously make for significantly less lgbt centered works in general.

THIS.

In my opinion, the only way you're going to get more quality yuri games is if you teamed up with a dedicated group of people who want to make yuri games and have the drive to make those games. I agree with Auro. Throwing money at people who don't really care for yuri will not result in very good games. You want people with passion for yuri, not people who are being paid to make GxG when they'd rather make a GxB or BxB.

I feel like what we really need is a dedicated yuri fanbase/forum who will encourage developers and show their support for the genre. Take a look at yaoi fans: they show strong demand, very active community willing to pay for what they want, they gather together, talk together, and fangirl/fanboy together. Their combined efforts just gave $143,183 to Starfighter's kickstarter for crying out loud!

There IS a yuri fanbase, they're just a lot quieter than yaoi fans I feel.

The answer I think would be to gather a group of like minded folks who support yuri and encourage them to get creative. Not necessarily through money, but by sharing ideas, stories, what have you.

but GxG arcs tend to boil down to one of three things whenever I see them. The best friend turned lover, the stoic/mysterious academic one, or the flirtatious bisexual.

I feel like the big problem with yuri games is that they tend to get on the boring side. Just two slice of life girls who share sandwiches together, then some sex, Yawn. Female characters are often written to be submissive and reactive to events rather than being a proactive, story driving protagonist. Too much talking about feelings, NOT ENOUGH ACTION!!

I mean, I honestly would rather play Dramatical Murder than Sono Hanabira because Sono Hanabira makes me snooze and Dramatical Murder is entertainingly batshit crazy.

[Raithfyre]

As usual, Tempus says what I wanted to say, only quicker.

The downside to that is there's not many people producing yuri content as it is (the whole reason you're doing this after all) so finding an established creator who's good and reliable as well as comfortable and competent with yuri content may be difficult.

This is my main issue with the contest suggestion as well. Gamedev games are, in my opinion, not often truly representative of a creator's skill, as they're often limited by a strict deadline. There's something to be said for judging the quality of an equally impaired group, but I think my point is still valid.

As a biased party, in that this is something that I myself would love to be chosen for, I support the sponsorship idea, where the creator is given the means to make their intended game. This allows (relatively) unrestricted creativity and thus the overall product would be its highest potential quality. While I agree with the logic behind seeking an experienced creator, I also tend to think that there are a fair number of newer writers who could rival that of a more experienced one. But, maybe that's the bias speaking again.

Speaking as objectively as I can, I think purchasing a completed script is the best idea. Not only does it guarantee what is historically the flakiest part of these projects, but it also still allows for all that creative control. I just think that having a budget in mind allows one to also write more freely, rather than having to constrain details to fit inside a budget.

Like Tempus also said, I'm very interested to see how this turns out, either as a spectator or a participant.

[rainbowcascade]

I've been thinking about this topic a lot. I know there's a kind of business system in Japan where agents hire promising manga artists and tell them "We will pay you to make anything you want to make. You can have all the creative freedom as long as your work contains yaoi." or shonen, or whatever. And those agents print their work in their magazines.

I think if you kind of adopted this system you could get more of those yuri games. But it'd still be work for you. Like for example, you hire a writer, an artist, a coder, and you just manage the team to make sure they're doing their job. You'd be their editor/manager essentially... which a ton of other visual novel enthusiasts are already doing.

There are artists out there who have the flexibility to draw whatever they are asked as long as they are compensated. I'm sure writers fall in that flexible category too. The trick is to find them. Here's a couple people who could possibly be up for working on a collaborative yuri project.

http://nomnomnamiart.tumblr.com/ - nomnomnami made Romance Detective for NaNoRenO
http://fakegirlgamer.tumblr.com/ - Arden made Kindness Coins in three days.

I think another idea that could help is to make short, brief yuri games like Kindness Coins instead of the "full length, takes 6 months to develop" kind of visual novels. The short length of the vn would be less stress and pain for the whole creative team. You could balance quality and quantity. A collection of cute, fun, and short yuri games.

[noeinan]

For me, I just offered my services as an artist on the recruitment forums-- free art for a yuri game that I liked. I'm currently doing one game-- I know it's not their number one project, but I also feel that if they have art for this one that increases the chance that it will be eventually finished.

[curry nochi rice]

What would make you, creators, more likely to write more yuri games?

not to be a jerk or anything... but It would involve a straight-up request by my once lesbian friend (whom I had her breakup with her girlfriend), AND/OR a lifetime supply of chocolate, maybe milktea, or m&m's... or just plain will code for food.

[Vatina]

I'm not sure I could write the kind of thing that yuri fans would want. For now a GxG route has been possible in my game, but nothing that focused only on that.

I wouldn't mind doing art for one though, could be interesting.

[Ben Ayoo]

Being able to sell me your finished script? (In this case all you'd have to do is write it, and if I liked the script, I would pay you, and then take it and do whatever I wanted with it, including changing it drastically, polishing it up, putting art in it, and selling the resulting game.)

I really like this.