Legal age for characters

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
Asceai
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1258
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:13 am
Projects: a battle engine
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#16 Post by Asceai »

SundownKid wrote:IIRC, 18 is the typical "it's okay to have sexual content" age. Usually mature rated sites and games have 18+ warnings on them.

16 might be technically legal to consent but it's pushing it for a game unless there is a good plot centric reason for it.

Anything younger than 16 would be underage and it would be illegal to have a visual depiction of it (I think).
I don't think there's satisfactory legal precedent in many places to show that a totally fictional depiction - that is, someone's imagination manifest into graphics, text etc. - of something that happens to be illegal (underage sex) is itself illegal, especially because such a restriction doesn't apply to anything other than underage sex. The lack of such precedent should, however, encourage caution - unless you want to risk becoming the legal precedent.

Hence, if you are in a country where this kind of thing hasn't been tested, you may still want to include the standard disclaimers anyway.

Meneil
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#17 Post by Meneil »

iirc in America, media can show underage characters "doing stuff". The difficulty arises in that the media is immediately going to jump up in rating, and any game rated 'A' is going to face some serious troubles in getting their name out there. For example, console games with an A rating aren't allowed to be sold on the shelf in America... meaning that the person will have to order it. Which means your consumer has to have heard of it before, look it up, and buy it manually - that's a lot of steps for making a purchase. I realize that as a Visual Novel you'd be selling through other mediums, but there's probably going to be specific steps or limiting filters applied there as well. 16 is a borderline age and I usually see games imply sex instead of outright showing anything, like Persona, which circumvents issues with ratings.

Edit: Also just guessing, but from your description I'd guess your game would be somewhere along an M rating, which would probably be fine.

User avatar
Chocopyro
Regular
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:38 pm
Projects: Keepsake: Orison of the falling leaves
Organization: Patchwork Novels
Location: A cornfield in 'merica.
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#18 Post by Chocopyro »

PyTom wrote:
Even if the characters were meant to be under age - and they sometimes are - it's not.

They're characters, the products of an artist's paintbrush and a writer's keyboard, not people. And so laws that are mean to apply to people shouldn't apply.

(This is an opinion as to the way the universe should be, and not legal advice. Laws vary from country to country and planet to planet.)
I'm actually more in agreement with this. I mean I don't write hentai, but I don't think a writer's creative liberties should be infringed upon if he/she chooses to write a scene about two characters have a consensual night together, and the scene focuses more on the feelings between the two rather than "Oh boy! 17 year oldz!!1!" Why should I be bothered? The game would be rated mature, the voice actors would be of age age (Hopefully. :| ), the characters are fictional, so no real under age people are being exploited, so whatever. Its character development as far as I'm concerned. And illegal acts are depicted in the media all the time, so why should this be more illegal than anything I see on Dexter or Breaking Bad? Dexter is no more a snuff film than a hentai game depicting characters who are 1-2 years shy of 18 is child pron. -shrugs-

Minor rant aside and back on topic, even if I hate being subjected to ethnocentric censorship laws in fictional mediums, its best to avoid legal trouble where you can. When characters being depicted as a legal consensual age in one country, but under age in another, usually when a game gets localized in america from japan, and the H-scenes remain intact, like say from a site like Mangagamer, they do kinda bump the characters ages up to "ambiguously over 18". In most cases, that will pass. So it may be best to release a "Localized edited" version if it comes here, either with H-scenes removed entirely, or with the characters ages edited.
Image

TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#19 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

I know I'm going to be unpopular for asking this, but what do so many people feel the need to go as close to legal child porn as possible?

Sure you don't all have to have images of underage girls performing sexual acts? "But it's relevant to my story" is a cop out, unless all you are capable of thinking about is pedophilia.
/rant
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
Chocopyro
Regular
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:38 pm
Projects: Keepsake: Orison of the falling leaves
Organization: Patchwork Novels
Location: A cornfield in 'merica.
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#20 Post by Chocopyro »

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I know I'm going to be unpopular for asking this, but what do so many people feel the need to go as close to legal child porn as possible?

Sure you don't all have to have images of underage girls performing sexual acts? "But it's relevant to my story" is a cop out, unless all you are capable of thinking about is pedophilia.
/rant
I'm borderline asexual actually, its not so much an act of trying to immerse myself into child pornography. I'm not even really into the hentai side of VNs for that matter. I just don't believe having to tip toe around certain sensitive concepts when it comes to writing. Its not a matter of "Am I going to try to write hentai with under aged characters" because I'm not. More along the lines of "Why do I have to be judged by western sociological views for trying to create something that is hopefully culturally indistinguishable from an eastern medium?"

For example, making a bishoujo game is hard enough while trying to adhere to a feminist standard. I'm trying to reach the moe crowd, but I always feel myself having to please my own equalist standards, on top of trying not to loose a friend who is offended by the thought alone of bishoujo games. (And strangely not Otome games. >.> )

Then you have the topic of racism, where apparently you are considered racist by not the way you portray a character of an ethnic origin, but by the utter lack of diversity.

And then you have the standards of writers, some of whom would go as far as to label every single character from fruits basket as a Marry-sue. So yet again, you have to be very careful about making sure your characters feel realistic instead of like the comical anime tropes that your target audience is probably more familiar with.

Then there's agism, which we've discussed the extreme side already, but on a minor side, sometimes I feel like I need to make a game where everyone is in their forties to make these people happy. (Hmm, that might actually be kinda fun now that I think about it. :lol: )

I could go on, but what it comes down to is; with each "Ism" and standard I feel the need to apply just to avoid offending someone, I feel myself getting further away from the game I set out to achieve, and the core audience it was meant for. Suddenly its not the bishoujo game fans I'm trying to please, but everyone. And I may even agree with most of the points. But it just gets to the point where I can't tell the story I set out to tell anymore. My ONLY concern should be the feelings of the players whom I'm trying to reach out to, so I have to make compromises with the rest of the world. So that means shutting down my biases and the biases outside of my target audience. But shutting down society's biases is an act that's easier said than done.

And don't worry, I don't look down on you for asking or speaking a point of view which conflicts with my own. Both sides of an argument should always be laid upon the table, and I have respect for you being the guy to do it. 8)
Last edited by Chocopyro on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:49 am, edited 6 times in total.
Image

User avatar
Hijiri
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:35 pm
Completed: Death Rule:lost code Overdrive Edition, Where the White Doves Rest-Tsumihanseishi
Projects: Death Rule: Killing System
Organization: MESI Games
IRC Nick: Hizi
Tumblr: mesigames
Skype: kurotezuka
itch: hijiri
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#21 Post by Hijiri »

Just in a side-note Let us temporarily acknowledge that this is a thing (One you have, you can quickly unacknowledge it and save what sanity you have) and it tends to have high ratings. Taboo subjects tend to grab the most attention.
Image Image
"Perfection goal that always changes. Can pursue, cannot obtain."

JD_Mortal
Regular
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:01 am

Re: Legal age for characters

#22 Post by JD_Mortal »

You can also, if desired, just ask...

"Please select the legal age of consent in your country, before you continue." [16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21] {Lower, if you dare. Lowest is 9-10{@puberty}}
(If desired, select an interactive age that is appropriately higher.)

also...

"By selecting, CONTINUE, you agree that you are of legal age to read about consensual adult content."

Poof, instant approval anywhere.

Then you just have to replace the age references with the appropriate variables...
16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21(eg, "is only 16")
16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st (eg, "16th birthday")
sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one (eg, "sixteen years old")
"a teen", "no-longer a teen", "a young-adult" (eg, "can't believe she is ________")

User avatar
Taleweaver
Writing Maniac
Posts: 3428
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:51 am
Completed: Metropolitan Blues, The Loyal Kinsman, Daemonophilia, The Dreaming, The Thirteenth Year, Adrift, Bionic Heart 2, Secrets of the Wolf, The Photographer
Projects: The Pilgrim's Path, Elspeth's Garden, Secret Adventure Game!
Organization: Tall Tales Productions
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#23 Post by Taleweaver »

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I know I'm going to be unpopular for asking this, but what do so many people feel the need to go as close to legal child porn as possible?
Because Japan.

The VN crowd is an offshoot of the anime/manga crowd, and as such, its members prefer their stories as Japanese as possible. Japan has very liberal laws regarding erotica of underage children, especially girls, as one online image search for "Japanese junior idol" will quickly bring to light. (Don't actually do that search unless you're okay with seeing photograpies and videos of eleven-year-old girls in very skimpy bikinis smiling and laughing into a camera that's clearly pointed between their spread legs.) Thus, people often feel that showing the sexual activities of teenagers is just "the Japanese thing to do", even more justified by the fact that "teenagers think of sex all the time anyway".

Add to that games like Conception and its sequel, which basically revolve around the concept "impregnate teenage girls so that your children can save the world" and you can easily explain away why even really sexualized story ideas are perfectly fine to turn into VNs.
Scriptwriter and producer of Metropolitan Blues
Creator of The Loyal Kinsman
Scriptwriter and director of Daemonophilia
Scriptwriter and director of The Dreaming
Scriptwriter of Zenith Chronicles
Scriptwriter and director of The Thirteenth Year
Scriptwriter and director of Romance is Dead
Scriptwriter and producer of Adrift
More about me in my blog
"Adrift - Like Ever17, but without the Deus Ex Machina" - HigurashiKira

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4107
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: something mysterious involving yuri, usually
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#24 Post by papillon »

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I know I'm going to be unpopular for asking this, but what do so many people feel the need to go as close to legal child porn as possible?

Sure you don't all have to have images of underage girls performing sexual acts? "But it's relevant to my story" is a cop out, unless all you are capable of thinking about is pedophilia.
/rant
That's only true if all you ever do is write characters as young as possible.

There are reasons (one being japanese tradition, another being lack of adult responsibilities, and another being 'presumption of innocence') why so many romance games are set in high school. If you're trying to have a romance game with sex, then the age thing becomes a relevant question. Even if the sex is not graphically depicted or acknowledged on screen at all, the legal bounds are still something to be aware of.

So, there's people fetishising the fluffy, pure, First Love romance who want young characters. There's also people interested in exploring a story where a character is helpless against the forces that beset her. You CAN write an adult otome protagonist who is an utter ninny, unable to look after herself, knows nothing about the world, has no job, no skills, has never been kissed, and thus is helpless in the clutches of her new vampire family... but it's less believable than if your protagonist is a teenager.

Being forced to deal with adult matters while 'too young' to handle them properly is a classic bit of internal plot drama. It doesn't always have to be sex. How many stories are about teenagers struggling to keep up a normal life with their family and friends and schoolwork... while also being a superhero? Adolescence, being torn between childish things and adultish things and feeling at home with neither, is the birthplace of a lot of plots.

Sure, the university setting gives you characters of legal age who still don't have jobs (at least, some of them don't), but the modern tropes of uni students are very different than the innocent, sheltered characters of the high school dating sim. A nineteen year old falling pregnant is a very different story than a fifteen year old falling pregnant. The stresses and expectations on them are not at all the same.

SundownKid
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:50 pm
Completed: Icebound, Selenon Rising Ep. 1-2
Projects: Selenon Rising Ep. 3-4
Organization: Fastermind Games
Deviantart: sundownkid
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#25 Post by SundownKid »

I think another reason high school stories are so common is that nobody really sympathizes with a college student in comparison. If you're emotionally conflicted in college, you're a stuck-up brat or totally irresponsible. If you're conflicted in high school, it's normal.

User avatar
DaFool
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4171
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#26 Post by DaFool »

Teens (this includes legal 18s and 19s) are just easier to draw in anime style. No need to worry about wrinkles, fat deposits, and the like.

Well, actually I would go with a full MILF/DILF cast personally but there are some sections of the fandom (as well as majority of the fandom in Japan as far as I can tell) that would appreciate my game more if it had the token Loli. And since I'm actually aiming to make a project that would be torrented right there next to the best JVNs, it's a very serious consideration.

Periwinkle
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#27 Post by Periwinkle »

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I know I'm going to be unpopular for asking this, but what do so many people feel the need to go as close to legal child porn as possible?

Sure you don't all have to have images of underage girls performing sexual acts? "But it's relevant to my story" is a cop out, unless all you are capable of thinking about is pedophilia.
/rant
I agree 100%
One thing that I really dislike about VNs are that there are so many games for pedophiles out there.

Eiliya
Regular
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:21 am
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#28 Post by Eiliya »

Disclaimer: I use the word lolita as a way to describe people who look significantly younger than they actually are, while using proper age-categories for people who look their actual age.

Just because you have a thing for characters that look younger in illustrations does not mean you do so in real life. I had (and still do, actually) quite a lot of lolita-classed erotica on my computer, most of which were japanese erotic games and mangas/doujinshis. Then one day, someone who had visited me reported this to the police, and my computer was confiscated for investigation.

A few months later I was accused of pedofilia and childpronography, but the case was shut down because a crime needs to have a victim for it to be considdered legit. Fictional characters, such as illustrated ones, do not count as legal victims which means that no crime can be committed against them. The world would be fairly strange if every author who killed off their characters in a story was branded a murderer in real life, right?

The law where I live states that "Regardless of actual age, if the appearance of the person displayed in a sexual manner is not obviously a fully developed adult, the sexual act is to be considdered child pornography. Possession of said material is considdered a stage one offense, distribution of it is considdered a stage two offense, and creation of it is considdered a stage three offense." Now, I had a really good point when I started typing this post, but I long since forgot it T_T

So, well, this is just me adding my two cents to the conversation, rather than making an actual point.

TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#29 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

I think those of us in the Against camp are less worried about legality and more concerned about why large number of our peers are sexually attracted to images of underage girls.

You guys know that's really far from normal, right?
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4107
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: something mysterious involving yuri, usually
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: Legal age for characters

#30 Post by papillon »

TrickWithAKnife wrote: You guys know that's really far from normal, right?
When the 'underage' in question is 'a teenager who just happens to be under 18' it's not really that unusual. Some people's tastes, of course, are rather more outré.

But what is 'normal'? A lot of things aren't 'normal' in the sense of being the majority/the single prevalent norm, but are 'normal' in the sense of regularly and consistently occurring over time, a normal variation. And 'normal' in itself has nothing to do with right or wrong. Very normal things can be immoral.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot]