On Forum Rules and Moderation

[Rinima]

I have no problem with people discussing issue in the context of a game, but if you want debate for debate's sake, that's not what this forum is for.

Maybe a separate forum would be appropriate to bring up then? Within the context of oevn's and anime (if people get what I'm getting at?)

[Sapphi]

It doesn't matter if they're a technical genius, or if their "insight and willingness" could make them "valuable", if they're the kind of person who would be likely to treat you badly for being different, or others badly for being different, that is not a difference of opinion, that is bigotry, and absolutely no one is obligated to put up with that. No one is EVER obligated to put up with emotional abuse, with listening to their minority status being degraded and insulted, just because the other person happens to hold some skills that might be of use to you.

It seems like you are reacting to something that wasn't said?
You're absolutely right that nobody should have to put up with emotional abuse*... I don't think anyone here thinks you are obligated to work with someone who makes you feel like shit.
(*Small nitpick - emotional abuse can happen to people with majority status, too.)

If someone is making you uncomfortable, they've probably already crossed the line into disrespect, and you shouldn't feel obligated to work with someone who is disrespectful towards you.
But, someone can hold alternate views from you and still respect you for the good work that you do. It would be presumptuous to blacklist that person just because "Oooh, they have this view, they're surely going to be disrespectful to me as an individual and terrible to work with." That just isn't necessarily the case.

You do not owe someone with bigoted views anything.

Nobody on this forum owes anything to anyone but basic human decency and respect. (Excluding where services have been promised, of course.)
So what exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean that someone should be able to back out of an agreement without consequence if they find their partner has a bigoted view? Or that nobody should work with someone that has a bigoted view? Do you make a distinction between bad behavior and a bad view?

[trooper6]

I think the idea of keeping a list of people you dislike isn't terribly healthy, either for you or for the forum. In the latter case, I'm glad it's hard, since it keeps external disputes outside the forum. The thing is, this is a technical form - even if some of those technologies involve art and writing, rather than just code. And the person who answers someone's question may not be a perfect person - but their insight and willingness to help makes them valuable despite that, while the limited scope of the forum means there's less opportunity for your dislike of your views, or their dislike of yours, to matter.

If these forums were only about sharing tips about art, writing, and code--if it were purely a technical forum--I might agree with you. However, these forums are about more than that, as you said yourself in a post above:

A few years ago, we went through the exercise of trying to decide what this forum should be about. And what we came up - rule 0 of the forum rules - is to promote the creation of visual novels and story-based games by providing a place for the creators of those games to teach each other, improve their skills, forge collaborations, and promote their work.

This is a place to forge collaborations. We have recruitment forums. And collaborations are personalized in a way that sharing some code or a writing tip is not. Collaborations are relationships. And no one is under any obligation to enter into a relationship with anyone they don't want to. Avoiding getting into a personal relationship with people who are harmful to you is not unhealthy, it is smart. Before I continue on, let me bring in this comment:

I'm torn here. I do think there have been some extremely toxic people on this forum in the past, people who I would never want to work with. So toxicity is a thing, and obviously you don't want your creative work touched by someone who is going to sabotage it with their negativity.

On the other hand, if a person holds negative views of a particular group, but they have a genuinely helpful skill, I think we as a forum need to welcome that person. Obviously if they start saying or doing harmful things, we don't welcome that behavior. But I think it's a big mistake to say "I don't want to work with this person because they hold views that I oppose." We're living in a global society, and there are people on this forum from all over the world. We need to know when to set personal views aside to work together for the common good. For example, I'm a Christian, and some of my best friends are atheists. Sometimes they make fun of religion or say things that hurt my feelings. However, at the end of the day, we can accomplish more together than we can alone. As long as I feel like they respect me, as long as they're not being toxic and negative towards me, then there is no reason we should not work together.

I have never said people who have incompatible views should be banned from the forums. I said I don't want to enter into a collaboration with people who disrespect who I am. I am under the obligation to be polite to people on these forums. I am under no obligation to enter into a relationship (and a collaboration is a relationship) with anyone I don't want to. I will not enter into a relationship with people who are toxic, negative, disrespectful towards me, and I am under no obligation to do so. However, it is also part of my ethics not to sit by when people are toxic and hateful towards others who are not me. So while I am not, for example, Muslim, if a person is Islamophobic, I'm not going to enter into a relationship with them. That is my choice. I don't think it is unhealthy to refuse to support hate.

I am an athiest...and at my last place of employment there were quite a number of Christians who were convinced I'm going to rot in Hell because I've not accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. And whenever we were together they let me know this. At work. Because their viewpoint was dominant in that location, it was not considered controversial to tell me these things. So, of course, no one stopped them from saying these things. I did my work because that was my job, but the world was not a better place because they got to harass me regularly for about a year. And we did not achieve more together...because I could not actually be myself or be comfortable or really give my input in that hostile environment. We could have achieved more if they had actually respected me and saw me as a human being. Sadly, that wasn't the case. And in no way would I voluntarily spend my free time making a VN with them. Why would I put myself through that abuse on my free time? Happily, I'm now in a job where I'm not abused for not being Christian.

I am fine with having no off-topic forums...though I think it hypocritical to keep the off-topic anime forums and I think is sends the wrong message about EVNs...but I don't think it is wrong or unhealthy, for myself or for this board, to refuse to become partners with people who disrespect you.

[Mad Harlequin]

My stance on the forum's general discouragement of those topics not pertaining to VNs has not changed since the issue arose in another thread. Do we need an off-topic section? Probably not, but I don't see why reticence has to be part of the forum's DNA. It doesn't make sense to me, especially when I've seen many threads progress without problems before suddenly being shuttered for being unrelated to the forum's main purpose. If a problem does occur, such as someone shouting over someone else, moderators can step in to calm things down. In addition, it seems almost insulting, at times, to assume that off-topic threads waste time; what if someone has an insight that turns out to be valuable, but the rest of us are prevented from absorbing it just because the thread falls outside of an arbitrary boundary?

And, as I pointed out before, if a thread's to be closed because it breaks some rule, the one closing it should not get to indulge in a post there. Leaders should lead by example.

I think we should give each other more credit. We're not incapable of civil exchanges of ideas, even when they might relate to sensitive topics. Sometimes we err---I know I have---but I've always believed people should be given the chance to learn how to talk to others about difficult subjects. I've learned a good deal from my time on other forums, and most of those places were as desirous of positive discussion as Lemmasoft is, without being nearly as afraid of talking about certain things.

[infel]

I remembered why I joined this site; to find others who shared in my likeness for visual novels and to work in a creative community. As I hoped I've found many kind and very helpful people who have given me advice and have helped me with the games I create. Is is weird that in my opinion this place can be kind of like a family in a way? Yeah I get that what we're doing can be competitive, but I feel like this place has a good atmosphere for all types of people and can help others express themselves.

Still I think back on the word express and do realize that people should be able to talk about things outside of visual novels on here. My problem is though is that, for example, if you put things like religion or politics on this forum that some drama may ensue. I'm not saying it's not important to express things on here and I do think this forum should also be a place where people can express themselves outside of visual novels, but I feel like certain topics need to be handled with care because some people can take things out of context.

If there was, for example, a sub forum for religion I don't think I'd ever read that. As I said it's a sensitive topic and I do feel like having something like that would make this forum a bit heated. Still I'm fine with the opinion of others and I actually enjoy seeing what people's thoughts are. It broadens my own thinking and it's cool reading what others have to say. Makes me think more.

[trooper6]

(My dream is that one day all the effort people want to spend on off-topic threads will instead of directed to offering critique/advice to people in the demo and wip boards....)

We have very, very few off topic boards. Very few.

As for spending time offering critique/advice to people in the demo & wip boards. Those are two different types of effort. Clearly it takes less time and effort to say, "Oh, my favorite anime is X" that is does to play through a demo and craft thoughtful critique. Especially, when you never know if that critique is actually wanted...or if the creator just wants cheerleading.

I tend to avoid writing critique if there is no Honest Critique button. It is not worth my time.
I tend to avoid writing critique if the genre is not one aimed for me. For the most part I don't enjoy JVN style romance games...so I'm not going to spend time crafting response to those games.

And actually, I spend the bulk of my time in LSF not making critique of demos or WIP, or on off-topic threads, but reading and answering questions in the Questions thread. I spend hours and hours a week reading those questions, making test games to see if I can help solve the problem and then posting what I've come up with. So that's where I spend my energy. Everyone spends their energy in different places, and that is okay.

You do not owe someone with bigoted views anything.

Nobody on this forum owes anything to anyone but basic human decency and respect. (Excluding where services have been promised, of course.)
So what exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean that someone should be able to back out of an agreement without consequence if they find their partner has a bigoted view? Or that nobody should work with someone that has a bigoted view? Do you make a distinction between bad behavior and a bad view?

Whether someone can back out of an agreement and how they do it depends on the agreement and there are always consequences for every action. What consequences there will be depends on the nature of the agreement and how that backing out is done.
If you have been contracted to do art for a VN and it turns out the creator wants you to draw pornographic torture porn and you don't want to do that...well I think you have the right to not draw pornographic torture porn. You'll have to return any money given to you, people may think you are a flake, some people may not want to work with you...heck, you might even be sued for breach of contract...but that is life.

I will not say that nobody should work with someone that has a bigoted view. I will say that *I* don't want to support bigots when I have a choice. *You* can do whatever you want. Just as it is my right to say, I won't give money to white supremacists or hang out with people who make racist jokes...you have the right to not care about that sort of thing at all. There will be consequences for my position of avoiding bigots and there will be consequences for the person who embraces bigots. That is the nature of life.

I am a professor, so I do not have the choice in avoiding bigots who choose to attend my class. Just this last year I had students in my class who did some unbelievably racists things at a frat party using materials from my course and sent death threats to one of my other students. I reported them for the bias incident and the death threats, but that was all I could do (well I was invited by the frat to do some education outreach, which I agreed to do). I did not give them lower grades. I did not kick them out of class. Because that is not something I have a choice over. However, I would not decide to make a VN with those guys. You can. But I won't.

As for the difference between bad thought and bad behavior when it comes to entering into a relationship...that again, like all of this, is a personal decision. Some people will have no problem dating a non-violent white supremacist as long as they don't attack people...others won't want to date a white supremacist regardless of their actions. This is a person's right to make those choices about their personal relations. There will always be consequences.

[PyTom]

And whenever we were together they let me know this. At work. Because their viewpoint was dominant in that location, it was not considered controversial to tell me these things.

But the thing is - the right answer here would be for management to step in and say that the religious talk was making people uncomfortable, and since it didn't contribute to doing your job, cut it out. If they had done that early enough, it wouldn't have driven you out, and you and your co-workers would have been able to get on with your jobs.

That's what I'm trying to do here - shutting down (or redirecting to be more on-topic, which is a form of shutting down) controversial threads so that everyone feels welcome, before people stamp off in disgust because someone said something offensive.



This is a relatively new policy, BTW. Up until 2012 or so, we ran the forum with a very light touch when it came to moderation. That led to me coming within a few minutes of shutting the forum down entirely. The current approach seems to work well in practice, so I'm very loathe to change it.

(In the same way, I'm loathe to get rid of the anime forum. It's been with us since before I joined, and seems mostly harmless, so I don't want to touch it. But that doesn't mean I would introduce it again, if it hadn't already existed. The anime forum is also easily avoidable, unlike General Discussion.)

I'd argue we still use a relatively light touch, even if we're not completely hands-off. The Non-Binary thread was running for three days and four pages before I intervened, my intervention was in response to blatantly uncivil behavior (now deleted), and even now, nobody has been banned, and the thread hasn't been locked - just redirected to be on-topic.

Also, realize that moderator time is a limited resource. Time I spend moderating is time I don't spend developing Ren'Py, and it's the same for everyone else. So dealing with off-topic heated threads by defusing the heat works a lot better for me (and everyone else) than trying to decide if each individual message is worthy of sanction.

For other threads we've locked, feel free to defend them individually - take a particular thread, and explain why you think it's worthy of displacing other threads on the forum. For us to actually bother shutting a thread down, it doesn't have to simply be off-topic - it generally has to either be actively harmful, or unlikely to generate interesting discussion. (Forum games are examples of both.)

[Sapphi]

I am in agreement with everyone who thinks the anime part of the forum is probably not helping to create a productive atmosphere, even if it has sentimental value and is largely harmless. Even I feel a little sad to get rid of it, but this really should be a place we come to discuss visual novels, first and foremost, should it not? And are there not plenty of visual novels on VNDB we could be discussing instead of TV shows?

I also agree that moderators should not indulge in posting before locking a thread, that's just bad form and looks a little power-trippy.

I think we should give each other more credit. We're not incapable of civil exchanges of ideas, even when they might relate to sensitive topics. Sometimes we err---I know I have---but I've always believed people should be given the chance to learn how to talk to others about difficult subjects.

Oh... I think most regular contributors on the forum are capable of civil exchanges. It just takes one person to read something the wrong way, or take offense at a passing comment. To write something in anger, or personally target someone. And then it snowballs from there. When the dust settles, someone has left the forum never to return, someone has been banned, the mods are frazzled and the remaining members are that much more jaded.

It seems to me that we should probably minimize opportunities for this to take place, rather than play with fire, that's all. (I quite like playing with fire, actually, but I have to recognize that at best, it's merely exciting. I'm not finishing my visual novel any faster. And of course, at worst, it damages the community.)

However, it is also part of my ethics not to sit by when people are toxic and hateful towards others who are not me. So while I am not, for example, Muslim, if a person is Islamophobic, I'm not going to enter into a relationship with them. That is my choice. I don't think it is unhealthy to refuse to support hate.

Right, that is your choice (one which I find somewhat unfortunate in terms of long-term effects, but that's beside the point).

However, forum posts cannot and should not be the way you evaluate the morality of potential team members. I mean, as it stands, even with the off-topic discussions being allowed, you're only getting partial information about people from their posts. Kinjo said it: "Sometimes I would like to express my views on things but I know they typically don't align with the majority here so I'm left staying silent most of the time."

PMing people and making your expectations clear is probably the best way to make sure you get what you want.

[trooper6]

And whenever we were together they let me know this. At work. Because their viewpoint was dominant in that location, it was not considered controversial to tell me these things.

But the thing is - the right answer here would be for management to step in and say that the religious talk was making people uncomfortable, and since it didn't contribute to doing your job, cut it out. If they had done that early enough, it wouldn't have driven you out, and you and your co-workers would have been able to get on with your jobs.

That's what I'm trying to do here - shutting down (or redirecting to be more on-topic, which is a form of shutting down) controversial threads so that everyone feels welcome, before people stamp off in disgust because someone said something offensive.

I want to clarify that I'm not arguing in favor of off-topic threads. I'm neutral on if we have them or not--I don't spend most of my time on them, they aren't my main draw. I'm arguing that it isn't unhealthy, either to one's self or to the forums, to avoid entering into a collaboration with people who have views that are toxic for you. I'm arguing that I don't think it is unhealthy to keep a list of people who are simpatico with you and those who are not for the purposes of figuring out who you would or would not want to start collaborations with.

However, it is also part of my ethics not to sit by when people are toxic and hateful towards others who are not me. So while I am not, for example, Muslim, if a person is Islamophobic, I'm not going to enter into a relationship with them. That is my choice. I don't think it is unhealthy to refuse to support hate.

Right, that is your choice (one which I find somewhat unfortunate in terms of long-term effects, but that's beside the point).

I regularly do education and outreach on topics of race, gender, and sexuality and often with people who are hostile. I sit politely and generously while people say demeaning and dehumanizing things to me with a smile on my face full of patience and understanding. But after I've been told how people think x,y, and z hateful things about me...but it isn't personal, blah, blah, for a couple of hours on end, or I've dealt with daily, regular micro (and sometimes macro) aggressions in the name of trying to make the world a better place? I don't also need to spend my private time with people who disrespect me and harm me. I don't think avoiding being abused in my personal time when I'm trying to recover from abuse from my educational outreach is unfortunate in terms of long-term effects. Just the opposite in fact. If I didn't have time away from abusive people, I would not have the emotional energy to be able to continue outreach and education. I might fall to into depression and internalize those harmful things they've said. I might be crushed by the weight of their abuse. And that is not a positive long term outcome...because if I'm crushed I can't to any positive work...and also I'm crushed.

However, forum posts cannot and should not be the way you evaluate the morality of potential team members. I mean, as it stands, even with the off-topic discussions being allowed, you're only getting partial information about people from their posts. Kinjo said it: "Sometimes I would like to express my views on things but I know they typically don't align with the majority here so I'm left staying silent most of the time."

PMing people and making your expectations clear is probably the best way to make sure you get what you want.

If I person says a bunch of racist things on these message boards, I may only have partial information about them, but that partial information includes knowing they say racist things on message boards, and that is not someone I'm going to enter into a partnership with. Some people may be racist but not say it publicly in the message boards, that's why there would be further followup before I enter into a partnership with people. But a person's public behavior can certainly be a disqualifier for me.

As for Kinjo not expressing his views on things because they don't align with the majority here, I don't know what his views are. My tastes don't align with the majority here, I'm not a big fan of JVN inspired romance VNs...this means it will be a bit more difficult for me to find collaborators. There are people who are in favor of seeing the humanity of LGQTQQIAA+ people but feel their views don't align with the majority. There are people who are pro-graphic sex in VN and they don't feel that view aligns with the majority here. But that is just life. Collaborating involves having conversations with people. I want to collaborate with people I can have productive conversations with. Answering a question about how to format text? That doesn't actually involve having a real conversation and I'll do that with anyone. But a deep relationship? I want to do that with people that I can build something together with that I can have a good conversation with, someone I can trust and be in the vulnerable space that is creativity with.

[RotGtIE]

Honestly, I get a little sensitive when I see people trying to create or enforce orthodoxy on the forum. That's because I want the LSF to be a welcoming place for all creators of visual novels - and that means accepting that people will disagree on many less-related issues. Trying to coming up with a forum-wide consensus on controversial issues means excluding people who do not subscribe to that consensus - and so threads that do so tend to get reined in or shut down.

Seconding this,

I think the idea of keeping a list of people you dislike isn't terribly healthy, either for you or for the forum.

And this.

We all know the thread being discussed here, and the conversation which took place within it was exactly the sort of thing that keeps a community small and isolated, and also discourages collaboration between people of differing political standpoints. There's a palpable culture in this place which already leans harder to the left than certain parts of my anatomy, and for someone who veers toward the right and libertarian corner of the political spectrum, the hostility created by that atmosphere is something which maintains a constant and heavy influence on me. I am extremely careful with my words here, and I do not see a similar sort of care being taken by people with a predisposition toward certain unmentionable political ideologies.

And when I come across sentiments like this, it forces me to take a great deal of pause before interacting with someone, especially collaborating on a project together - not because I personally disagree with or even outright loathe their political stance, but because I have to fear what they will deem acceptable to do to me based on our political opposition to one another. It requires me to take an extra step when looking for projects to join or prospective team members to join mine, and that is a depressing vetting process whereby I have to browse their history to keep a keen eye out for some seriously disturbing red flags - again, not to check for incompatible political viewpoints, but for an apparent tendency or desire in them to put politics before professionalism. The last thing I need, especially when I'm putting up my own money for the development of a project, is to work with someone up to about the halfway point, only to have them take the money and ditch, feeling perfectly righteous about themselves because they stumbled across some opinion of mine that they found "problematic" and are of the persuasion that "there are no bad tactics, only bad targets."

To anyone who thinks they're building a better, more welcoming community by engaging in political turf wars - not even over whether to be progressive or conservative, but which kind of progressive viewpoints are or are not progressive enough - I suggest you think more carefully about what you're putting on this board, or, if you can't be bothered to care about LS, then at least about what impression you are leaving of your own personal self. If you think you are presenting yourself well by throwing around certain "inclusive," "diverse," or "open-minded" buzzwords with a tone of righteous indignation, you really need to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you would look so good in your own eyes if you started replacing some of the words in your posts with their opposite analogues - "bigot" with "degenerate," "racist" with "cuck," or "trans/homo-phobe" with "shill." You think you don't look just as bad as the folks on the other end of the political horseshoe? Go try a few rounds of guessing at r/StormfrontorSJW and see if you can make it to the double digits without getting one wrong.

If you do this, even if you think you're advocating for the "good" side, you are scaring people away. Not just from working with you, but from working with anyone else who comes here as well. People see a zealous and dominant political narrative and it makes them want to back away, even if they lean toward your political viewpoints but see you attacking others for not holding them as strongly as you do.

[trooper6]

RotGtIE and I are in accord in that we both have criteria we use to rule people out as being possible collaborators (and presumably rule others in).
And this is both of our right to do so.
Further it is good. RotGtIE should not be obligated to work with people that make him feel nervous or oppressed, and neither should I.
He keeps note of those people who set off red flags for him and so do I.

[PyTom]

I've been going back and forth on de-linking RotGtIE's post since he or she posted it. Since I'm super involved in this thread, I'll leave the links in - but I really don't think it's helpful to try to bring the sorts of debates that rage on reddit and twitter to our forum.

I guess I do want to comment on the last couple of posts, and say that while you certainly have the right to write someone's name in your book and put a line through it, I don't have the obligation to make that easy - especially if it means allowing contentious off-topic threads to run unchecked. And if that means a pair of creators with differing political positions wind up seeing each other as people after accidentally working together - I'll be able to live with that.

[Omega_93]

Personally, the only reason I'd not want to work with someone is if they're militant enough to be spouting off political views in a forum where their username identifies and associates them with the games they contribute.

If your professionalism is so shallow you'd get in a "heated" argument on a forum (granted I haven't seen the argument in question and whether or not I'd personally call it "heated"), then I would have to assume you're going to be even more argumentative in private.

*Disclaimer* - The "you" here is a hypothetical "you" and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

[Quelcezot]

I was going to stay away from this thread, but reading through it I feel I'm really obligated to clear up a few things and offer my opinion.

It was essentially my post that set off the debate, that then sparked this thread. I tend to use a quite blunt and over the top tone in general; and so when it came to wording some purely grammatical and semantic criticisms of "they" and "non-binary", I did not do so in a particularly tactful way. This was a stupid blunder on my behalf.

The debate arose. Ultimately I was agreeing with people on the other side of the debate on the important issues but then the claim was made that "When you crap on that term, you are also crapping on people for whom that term is an important part of their identity."

I stopped replying at this point because I simply don't agree with that. I understand that "crapping" is another spelling of "criticizing". That's fair enough, but since writing is a major part of creating a visual novel, I think creators should be open to discussing the meaning of words. I do not think some words should have a veto over being discussed, especially in a forum dedicated to the creation of visual novels. I do not think that discussing words that represent something sensitive is disrespectful.

Also, these terms do not create themselves. Being progressive means altering what is currently acceptable.

After I left things escalated a little, and then PyTom stepped in.

It seems to me that PyTom is just trying to promote a secular environment.

The internet is not democratic for the most part, and LS is no exception. However unlike in reality, people have the choice of whether they want to be part of a community or not. I daresay a large portion of this forum's success is down to how it's managed. PyTom just suggested for people to get back on topic and take the matter up separately if people had a problem with how he was managing things.

If PyTom is willing to take up issues like these on a one to one basis then I have no problems with how the forums are run.

I think it's totally ok to keep a list of people you don't want to work with. I just think it's damaging to make a public announcement about it. Am I on that list now? I'm sure you have disagreements that aren't fatal, but members of the community being aware that you keep an anonymous list of people you will never work with is going to affect how people interact with you.

Finally, as for the anime section. I think removing it now would just be a token gesture. There are people PyTom would be uprooting by removing it, it's different from not wanting to introduce other irrelevant sections. I don't use the section myself, and I have other forums and suchlike that will offer me the same things that off topic sections here could offer - but for people who are already settled I don't see a good reason for PyTom to remove a section that has a minimal and harmless community surrounding and parallel to it.

[Lesleigh63]

I don't have an issue with the current level of forum rules and moderation.