What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

[godman85]

Well I am making my first visual novel and have spent over a thousand bucks already getting ready for greenlight. I am breaking every last norm in my development.

It is a Kinetic Novel.
-Ancient Aliens
-Egyptian, Kushite, Menoan, Sumerian, Biblical, and Greek mythologies.
-real world politics as it would be assumed in 3500 BCE
-Multiple Main Characters and the killing of said characters.
-Psychosis
-Empire Building.

Yeah.

My scope has a crapload of "donts" and my art style is more comic then anime but you know what? Fuck it.

I have been writing this story for over four years and I will make this series happen one way or another.

http://www.indiedb.com/games/black-sands-origins

[Donmai]

Warning: slightly off-topic post ahead.

I don't believe in universal truths...

We are two.

Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)

I can see you are referring to VNs as a 'medium'. There's an old discussion. See 'Visual Novels are a genre not a medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=27977 and 'Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=29323
Personally (and it's important to say it's only my humble opinion )I see VNs as a subgenre of adventure games, and KNs as another subgenre. They have many common narration techniques, but KNs clearly have no intention to "pretend" they are games, they are a new genre of storytelling that is not a book with sound and not a movie without moving pictures. When TV started, TV shows were seen (and many times performed) as 'radio shows with images'. It usually takes a lot of time to consolidate genres and subgenres.
Usually VN fans will say 'KNs are not my thing' until, by accident, they stumble upon one they really like.
Yes, Trooper, I'm looking at you .
(By the way, Jazz Music was 'not my thing' until I heard Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five'.)

[Quelcezot]

I can see you are referring to VNs as a 'medium'. There's an old discussion. See 'Visual Novels are a genre not a medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=27977 and 'Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=29323
Personally (and it's important to say it's only my humble opinion )I see VNs as a subgenre of adventure games, and KNs as another subgenre. They have many common narration techniques, but KNs clearly have no intention to "pretend" they are games, they are a new genre of storytelling that is not a book with sound and not a movie without moving pictures. When TV started, TV shows were seen (and many times performed) as 'radio shows with images'. It usually takes a lot of time to consolidate genres and subgenres.
Usually VN fans will say 'KNs are not my thing' until, by accident, they stumble upon one they really like.
Yes, Trooper, I'm looking at you .
(By the way, Jazz Music was 'not my thing' until I heard Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five'.)

Apologies for veering off topic with you, but I think understandability is important here.

The term by itself is just describing a mechanism that can be used to tell a story. Identical in function to calling something a book or film. Hence, as a method of delivery, "Medium" is correctly used in this context.

That is absolutely the case. Without getting into whether visual novels are games or not, if you think they are a "genre" of video game then both can be true in their separate contexts. There isn't an explicit rule that states something cannot be both a medium and a genre, which term would be correct would be based on context.

If speaking within the context of storytelling (comparing a visual novel to a book or film, etc), then you are talking about visual novels as a method of delivery so "medium" would be correct.

If speaking within the context of video games specifically, you may well refer to a visual novel as a genre of video game as you are talking about visual novels as a particular type of video game. "Genre" would be correct.

If I was talking about visual novels as a medium of video games or visual novels as a genre of story telling, that would just be wrong.

As I see it, there's no real debate. Just grammar.

[Mad Harlequin]

I'll move the thread back on topic by referring to a problem I've been having lately:

Don't guilt yourself for getting creatively stuck, especially if you're not making something on a deadline.

[trooper6]

Personally (and it's important to say it's only my humble opinion )I see VNs as a subgenre of adventure games, and KNs as another subgenre. They have many common narration techniques, but KNs clearly have no intention to "pretend" they are games, they are a new genre of storytelling that is not a book with sound and not a movie without moving pictures. When TV started, TV shows were seen (and many times performed) as 'radio shows with images'. It usually takes a lot of time to consolidate genres and subgenres.
Usually VN fans will say 'KNs are not my thing' until, by accident, they stumble upon one they really like.
Yes, Trooper, I'm looking at you .
(By the way, Jazz Music was 'not my thing' until I heard Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five'.)

I agree with Donmai that VNs and KNs are different subgenres of adventure games. I quite like phrasing it that way. And I think the usefulness of thinking of them as two different subgenres, is that you can then ponder generating two different do/don't lists depending on if you are making a VN or a KN.

(Note: KNs are still not my thing, I just think your The One in Love is phenomenal. It is way better than Juniper's Knot, btw, which I played recently and didn't like for most of the reasons I don't tend to like KNs. I'll still keep playing KNs that look interesting because I'm open to the idea that there will be others out there that will do it for me. I have only found one so far though.)

[Donmai]

[...]

Sorry, it's not my intention to start an off-topic debate here, especially when there are so many others on the same subject. I've even included the links. See you there.
@ myself: do state your opinion / don't hikack other people's threads.

[noctos]

I'm still new to this, but I have a few experiences:

Do: Be confident! Have faith in yourself, and know that you're the only one that can make the VN you're working on.

Don't: Focus solely on the end result. Sure, thinking about that glorious release day is nice for motivation, but it could also do the opposite. Focusing on the end of the journey makes you aware of how far from it you are right now. It's better to set short-term goals up until release day and look to them instead. You'll get there eventually!

Additionally, I'd say it's important to stay close, but at the same time distant to your project. You should be passionate about it, and eager to see it through to the end, but you also need the maturity to take a step back and view it objectively. Accept critique when it's offered, and try to learn from the feedback. Know that even when you've spent hours on something, it will still have flaws, and you might have to scrap it. No one's taking away what you learned from making it though.

[Quelcezot]

[...]

Sorry, it's not my intention to start an off-topic debate here, especially when there are so many others on the same subject. I've even included the links. See you there.
@ myself: do state your opinion / don't hikack other people's threads.

Rereading my reply, I came across as more "passionate" than intended. I'm sorry about that. To me it was an interesting point you'd raised and I enjoyed thinking on it.

Also while I can't speak for other people's, feel free to hijack my threads if and when I make them. I value the free flow of conversation, even thought that's technically not what a forum is for.


More on topic, I think it's a fine line when it comes to writing only in the perfect medium. A good story is a good story, if a story is good and well told enough then its medium actually isn't that important. Most people have preferences too, I'm sure there are people on these forums who don't consider writing a standard novel as an alternative to a visual novel. It may be a good personal guideline for someone with confidence in various mediums, but I wouldn't use it when selecting my own preferences of other people's work.

I would agree in the sense that I believe the best visual novel ever would have to utilize all of the qualities that are unique to that particular medium.

I really like short KNs, but I admit that generally the longer visual novels I play do involve choices. Maybe that's because there aren't that many long KNs?

Some dos and don'ts?

Do: Focus on all three key elements of visual novels: visual art, music, writing.
Do: Work with others or find creative ways to compensate for your own weaknesses.
Do: Have a story you want to tell, even if you want to portray a message as well.
Do: Try to be interesting.
Do: The main voice should be able to be empathized with, but only rarely should you expect players to fully self project onto a well developed character.

Don't: Neglect music. Having none is an option, but it must feel justified to the player. Unless you're trying to piss the player off. In which case there are other passive aggressive tactics you could also use, such as writing in a made up language or using pictures of genitals in place of character portraits. No music is of course very often justified in small or minimalist projects.
Don't: Spend too much time having characters talking back and forth without actual development.
Don't: Carelessly misplace tone. Tone shifts can be interesting, but again I believe it should make sense to the player.
Don't: Forget to steal other peoples ideas and change them just enough that no-one can sue you.

[YonYonYon]

Do: Custom GUIs.
Don't: Same faces for characters, like, seriously. The worst case is when the same-faced characters have plain hairstyles.

[Kailoto]

Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)

I can see you are referring to VNs as a 'medium'. There's an old discussion. See 'Visual Novels are a genre not a medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=27977 and 'Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium': http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=29323
Personally (and it's important to say it's only my humble opinion )I see VNs as a subgenre of adventure games, and KNs as another subgenre. They have many common narration techniques, but KNs clearly have no intention to "pretend" they are games, they are a new genre of storytelling that is not a book with sound and not a movie without moving pictures. When TV started, TV shows were seen (and many times performed) as 'radio shows with images'. It usually takes a lot of time to consolidate genres and subgenres.
Usually VN fans will say 'KNs are not my thing' until, by accident, they stumble upon one they really like.

Fair enough; I think that's a pretty reasonable distinction to make. I still prefer to refer to them as a medium, but perhaps that's because I usually deal with people who think of visual novels as digital books. I never really worried too much about the semantics, but maybe I should.

I'm more frustrated by the difference between VNs and KNs. They look the same aesthetically, and are built off of the same language, but their mechanics and design are like night and day. It's hard enough convincing someone that a VN is not a book; trying to frame the difference between VNs and KNs is a nightmare.
And to be fair, I do like some kinetic novels and can appreciate them as an art form... I'll just never be creating them personally.

Do: Focus on all three key elements of visual novels: visual art, music, writing.
[...]
Don't: Neglect music. Having none is an option, but it must feel justified to the player. Unless you're trying to piss the player off. In which case there are other passive aggressive tactics you could also use, such as writing in a made up language or using pictures of genitals in place of character portraits. No music is of course very often justified in small or minimalist projects.

Can I even express how much I agree with this? People seem to get that writing and visuals are equally important in a visual novel, but audio often falls by the wayside. Voice acting is something that I do consider unnecessary for most projects, but BGM should be a focal point of any VN. Either hire a composer to make an original soundtrack, or put some serious effort into selecting unlicensed music.

I guess I also have this to add, then: Do make use of sound effects. Not every visual novel has to have tons of sound effects, but even just adding in a few at the right times can drastically enhance the experience. They're less noticeable than actual music tracks or character voices, but they add that last level of detail that elevates a work from good to great.

[Chocopyro]

Do:
Take other people's advice into account.
Don't:
100% obey it. Because you'd be denying yourself the opportunity to either:
1 | Learn exactly WHY the advice is important (Learning for yourself can be much more valuable in growing your skill)
2 | Innovate what was previously accepted as wrong by the status-quo into yet another "Right" way to do something. Sometimes a weakness is a strength in disguise.

Also, adding to Quelcezot and Kaito pointed out in the subject of music:
I have to agree. Music (And consequently sound effects) continues to tell a story where words end, so it really doesn't make sense if you are just using music as a way to blanket the silence. You just wouldn't be making full use of all the options that the Visual Novel narrative provides. It's the synergy between sound, writing, and visual intake which really can take a story further than any one of those elements can achieve alone.

Lastly, on the subject of the visual side of things, make sure you do some research on the psychological effects of different colors. It's a real eye opener and has a much more profound effect on the viewer's emotions than I really ever thought before. I'd like to see how people can use it to their advantage when conveying a story.

[namastaii]

Just so I'm fully understanding. What is the direct/blunt definition of a kinetic visual novel?

[trooper6]

Just so I'm fully understanding. What is the direct/blunt definition of a kinetic visual novel?

Kinetic Novels are usually understood to be just like VNs (or you could say VNs are just like KNs) but they don't have choices and they are linear, no "gameplay." So a KN is just like a novel or a short story, but with graphics and sound.

[Kailoto]

Just so I'm fully understanding. What is the direct/blunt definition of a kinetic visual novel?

Kinetic Novels are usually understood to be just like VNs (or you could say VNs are just like KNs) but they don't have choices and they are linear, no "gameplay." So a KN is just like a novel or a short story, but with graphics and sound.

Pretty much. And because of that distinction, in some cases the term "visual novel" can refer to both branching and linear experiences, or only to branching.

Also note that in Japan, the term visual novel (ビジュアルノベル or ノベルゲーム) isn't used in the same way as it is in the west; in fact, the term is often used for linear stories in the same way that we use the classification of kinetic novels (because to them, "novel" implies linearity.) Not something that you really need to know, but an interesting fact nonetheless.

[Laiska]

I have friends who play the Voltage apps on their phones. They LOVE these games and play through them twice to make different 'choices' and see the outcome (which only differ in 1-2 sentences of dialogue). It pains me to see them wasting their time.

As an informed source, I can tell you that you also get better endings depending on the choices! =D Though, that doesn't precisely explain the appeal.

What the Voltage games do do correctly is that they know their audience. They know exactly what the customers like, and what they will keep buying. The art is created to the specification of what the people who buy them will find enjoyable, and the writing is often fine-tuned to play into tropes that will pull at one's heartstrings and keep a player invested. It's cheap, and roughly the same level of artistry as a snack company determining just how much salt to put in their potato chips to keep you eating them (which is to say, it's more like a science!), but it gets the job done. And boy if people don't enjoy binging on those chips.

Who creates those 'Shall We Date' games? Are those from Voltage? Because I feel like you just described Shall We Date VNs. lool

Those are put out by NTT Solmare. There's also the "Forbidden Romance" games from D3Publisher. They're all of the same ilk. xD


So to piggyback off of this and keep on-topic-

DO: Know your audience! Determine who you want to make a game for—who would ideally be the kind of person to play and enjoy your game—so that you aren't stuck with a mixed bag of ingredients as you try to capture the attention of everyone.

DO NOT: Pander to them! Unless your aim is purely commercial gain, like with the phone otomes, don't craft a game just because "it's what the people like." Follow your own visions and make a game that appeals you you, foremost. If you work your hardest and put genuine effort and interest into it, there's bound to be someone who will share your interests.


I also want to make a note on the aforementioned music point- I actually spent a bit of time playing a handful of VN demos/short games, just to see which ones used music or didn't, and how that worked out for them. While the music absolutely added something, and I do not recommend skipping out on it, there were a few that worked in silence. However, they were largely short games. As someone who very much enjoys music, I don't think I would tolerate a long game with no sound. If you don't want constant music, you can also substitute atmospheric effects. Even the occasional interspersing of silence can make the music more powerful. But it certainly should be a consideration for most creators.

THAT SAID, please do not make a game that relies on its soundtrack to tell the story, unless you plan to explicitly state this fact to players beforehand. You may not know any personally, but there are deaf players of VNs too!