Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

[Maverynthia]

What I mostly see in Bishoujoge is that the Main Character is either an entire jerk, like the one in CLANNAD, Air, Grisaia and a few others OR the character is kind of a woobie and there is a jerk character that will act in his place, like Little Busters. (Yes I don't know many bishoujoge because most of them are eroge and that ass another level of skeev to it. So I am mostly going off Let's Plays and screenshots.)

Now my experience with men is that the jerk is the more realistic one because well... hey all the men I've talked to at some point have some level of jerkness to them. Blame the media on that. The woobies don't exist at all, society made sure of that.
NOW it comes down to the girls in the bishoujoge, which are almost always some form of personality stereotype. We all know (or at least women know) that women are human beings and have a wide variety of personalities. So having all these encapsulated personalities is highly unrealistic. Also having this number of women fall for a jerk character is unrealistic as well.

So the summary is, the protagonists are usually realistic, but it's the girls that tend to make the game super unrealistic.

[LPRe]

Sorry if I say something that someone else has already said, I just skimmed over the thread after a while because there are a lot of long replies and my head is kinda spinning right now(got a headache somehow like half an hour ago, still hasn't quite left).

As someone who's got social anxiety and has never gone on an actual date nor been in a relationship(and has been turned down the only time I asked someone out), I've gotta say, I've always had a soft spot for otome games. I know this thread started off talking about bishoujo games(which I've played one or two, but I've never really been fond of the tone of those and I have a preference for men, so, it's kinda awkward for me), but there's a similar problem with otome games, which I think a couple of people on here already talked about, with the protagonist often being bland and/or stereotypically feminine, which would be fine except it's pretty much the only personality of protagonists in the genre. There are few games I can think of off the top of my head that use a different type of protagonist, and most of them berate the protag for unfeminine behavior if she happens to exhibit any, which is annoying in itself.

I think the thing with a lot of dating games, bishoujo or otome, is that the majority of the people playing just want the fantasy of a lot of hot/cute people wanting them. It's not necessarily about how real the storyline is or the characters, it's about the idea that hey, all these beautiful people(or hey, these particular beautiful people), would want to date YOU, the faceless protag with just enough traits to relate to and yet just empty enough to become your shell for that universe. It's not really about the protagonist as a character so much as the protagonist as a shell for you to sit in. That means that the protags don't change, because that would technically mean you changing, and while people may be at least subconsciously aware that maybe they should change some aspects of themselves for the better in order to actually get a real date in reality, most people don't exactly like being told to their face that they should, maybe, do some self examination. Not many people as far as I know enjoy being told that hey, maybe it's because your personality is kinda awkward or you're kind of a jerkwad sometimes or whatever, and for some people playing these games, changing these aspects of themselves is terrifying for various reasons(communication issues, personal commitments to certain things, the social atmosphere they're in that maybe requires these traits to fit in, etc). And then you just have those people who think that they should just be loved no matter what, even if they give none of that in return/are super picky with others, and when they find that approach does not work in real life, they get all bitter and seek out things that satisfy their ideas(like the self fulfilling prophecy concept. Thought > seek thing that satisfies thought > continue thinking thought as right because you found ""evidence"", ignoring how + why you sought it out and the context behind said evidence).

That means though that the stories are often centered around your shell being wanted by whatever character you happen to go after, and that those stories are really being pulled along thanks to the character you desired. The protagonist's entire point is really to be as moldable as possible to suit the situations that occur in each route, not to be their own person, because that would ruin the immersion gimmick that a lot of otome/bishoujo games rely on, because like I said before, I think it's more just the idea that all these people who you find attractive want YOU, or at least, you in this game. Personally speaking, I think this is a way that only really works on people who either have a thin grip on how real life interacting works/don't know how to interact with people well/are those people who think they deserve romance despite not really giving much in return, people who just want to numb out for a little while into a fantasyworld and then come back to complicated real world interaction(which is my main reason for playing otome games, to be honest), or young kids, which, well, they're kids. Since I think a few people have talked about kids playing these games, I'll come back to it later.

And then there's the thing that, with a game, you're very aware it's a game, and most people playing dating sims(and are over...I'll say 17) are aware that the general "goal" of the game is to get a date/relationship with the character you want. Not a lot of people seem to desire a realistic story so much as a moving/emotional/wish fulfilling story(things that don't have to necessarily be realistic, they just have to play on certain feelings that the character that you've chosen experiences + your shell's feelings, and also often are just protag(aka you) being sought by this desirable character), which is also why most game stop once you "get" the character, because you've met the "goal". I've seen a few mobile otome games try and cover the after-you-get-a-relationship part, but I think the problem with those is that 1) You know it'll end on a positive note, because if it didn't it would ruin the fantasy and 2) it's...Not as exciting as trying to "get" the character. You've already "gotten" them. After that, the post chase is...Far more monotonous in comparison, and like I said before, with a lot of games you already know the way they're going to go because if they went in an unexpected direction(a breakup or something similar), that would ruin the fantasy of this character being in love with "you". At least, speaking from the perspective of someone who has never actually been in a relationship but has played a heck lot of otome games, good and bad and in between, that seems to be the trend there. Realistic date sims don't crop up often because realistic elements often shake the fantasy aspect that these games provide for people, and most people play these games for that aspect.

And a lot of these games, or at least, with otomes, the target audience is young teenage girls. There are issues with that in itself, such as how many otome games feature abusive men as desirable or changeable thanks to the ~power of love~ or whatnot, and the narrative that it pushes on young girls to be ~feminine~ and ~cute~ and not have masculine traits, and various other issues that I could probably think of if I tried. But they exist for fantasy fulfillment because young girls usually don't have a lot of dating experience, and dating experiences variate with age anyways. A pair of fourteen year olds going on a date is(probably) going to be wildly different from two seventeen year olds on a date, even if they're both watching a movie, the expectations attached to the date are probably going to differ due to social factors(fourteen year olds are going to have more chaste type dates, at least, I would hope, with seventeen year olds, there's usually a somewhat awkward "what base will be go on", just because that's what's fed to us via media(TV, games, etc)). A fourteen year old girl will probably play an otome game with an older protagonist because adult life is fed to us as glamorous or at least dramatic as compared to middle school life. (Which, actually, may be why so many otome game protagonists act somewhat childish to older fans, because these games are marketed so that younger girls can relate, not older people.) Somewhat like the phrase, the grass is always greener on the other side, when you're a kid you think being an adult must be better than where you're at now, whereas a lot of people my age wish they could go back to not stressing out about uni and money and the like.

I am a US citizen, so my understanding of dating is going to be colored in a more US kind of way. Admittedly I am an Asian US citizen, so I at least kind of understand japanese context because east asian experiences are vaguely related(and I have consumed a lot of japanese media, so some things are eventually going to rub off). With japanese otomes there's differences in desirable types of men(pretty boys, for example, rather than beefy types), a different social context attached to dating and the ways in which one is supposed to respond, and generally speaking, most east asian culture is still more attached to demure girls and more forward, masculine type guys(for otome games. Masculine personalities and masculine features are often mentioned as attractive/the attracting feature, things that aren't actually always great, such as commanding presence, a suave, lady-killer-esque style, aggressiveness, etc. Meanwhile like I mentioned before, otome protagonists are often very feminine, rather weak in many ways, sometimes childish, and usually good at stereotypically feminine things.)

With bishoujo games, I think the core issues that run through those types of games it that they often pigeonhole women's reactions(like...All the girls, if they like you, will respond to you in relatively similar ways, save for one or two personality tropes), and a lot of them are eroge games, which means the core goal isn't even the relationship so much as, well, the banging that comes with it. I think a lot of these characters(both the protag and the characters you date) are flat characters because people playing it aren't really in it for the story so much as getting to see the character they like with their clothes at least partially off. Looking at it that way, a good story is more like a bonus. There are eroges with good stories, naturally, and people obviously like those better, but the core "goal" in those games is still the hanky panky with the character you choose, that your shell gets to interact with. That's not even really examining the outerworld context of how straight cis men see women, and how often times the people playing these games are straight men who want a cute girl who's a good lay, or at least, these are the guys that will pay money for these things. Not all are like that, obviously, but a lot of people paying for this stuff are people that 1) don't have the stereotypically praised qualities (notice how I said above that quite a number of men in japanese otome games are masculine traits/personality, while the male protagonist in bishoujo games is usually a nervous, unconfident guy(who is far more similar to real life guys in some aspects)) and 2) are people who probably don't have the highest opinion of girls as a result, because they've been fed the idea that girls don't like who they are, which is just not a nice thing to hear, and probably not even true! But since it's fed to us since we're young by adults who were raised with these ideas and the media, we end up believing it, sometimes for quite a long time. We get sunk into these ideas and often, fantasy is the only way people feel good about themselves/their dating prospects. And obviously people are going to put out stuff that other people pay them for, cause you know, need money to eat.

I think the key here is people growing up and realizing that these things are just fantasy meat and not really how reality functions. That realization can be pretty disappointing though, and not something people really like to face. It's not a bad thing, in my opinion, to sink into fantasy meat as long as you can firmly remind yourself that this stuff isn't at all how real life functions. Sometimes you want to get swept away by a hot person or imagine having a roll in the hay with a hot person, that's cool. It's when you get stuck thinking/idealizing what happens in fantasy and don't want to let it go/face reality that things become problematic, but I don't think that's necessarily the content's fault. Rather that's a more personal understanding that you have to go through, though you can get help via parents explaining how dating works(assuming you have a good relationship with your parent/parents), or your friends who have been/are in genuine relationships. But it's not really the piece of media's fault for feeding you fantasy material, though the material can be examined, that's a really complicated topic though. And I haven't even gone on about BL VNs, which I could prattle on about for ages.

Sorry that this is all over the place, I kind of just word vomited a lot of thoughts. Feel free to dissect and discuss with me on any of it though, I think this is a pretty interesting topic.

[Kailoto]

-snip-

That sad part, I think, and the part that makes this such an issue of contention, is that it can be done well. I've played more than a few games that were ostensibly dating sims without some or even most of the typical flaws. And even if I can't think of a perfect example off the top of my head, I know with conviction that it is possible to make something that avoids these pitfalls. It might not be as marketable or profitable, but the potential is there. Wish fulfillment and realistic, thematically deep narratives are not exclusive to one another.

And I agree with what you say. There's still a market for these types of things, and there's still people who are willing to make them. I'm not against that. Perhaps it's naive, but I believe that you can create a galge or otome that accomplishes the goal of the genre and pleases the target demographic, while still being sophisticated and nuanced in its portrayal of relationships. And I wish there were more games like that.

Another part of the topic is the effect that unrealistic depictions have on the impressionable teenagers playing them, to which I've already stated my side: It's still bad if it leads to lazy writing, but in no circumstance should the writer be responsible for separating reality from fiction, except maybe when dealing with historical contexts. That responsibility falls onto the reader, and no creator should be held liable for how someone decides to interpret their work.

[LPRe]

-snip-

That sad part, I think, and the part that makes this such an issue of contention, is that it can be done well. I've played more than a few games that were ostensibly dating sims without some or even most of the typical flaws. And even if I can't think of a perfect example off the top of my head, I know with conviction that it is possible to make something that avoids these pitfalls. It might not be as marketable or profitable, but the potential is there. Wish fulfillment and realistic, thematically deep narratives are not exclusive to one another.

And I agree with what you say. There's still a market for these types of things, and there's still people who are willing to make them. I'm not against that. Perhaps it's naive, but I believe that you can create a galge or otome that accomplishes the goal of the genre and pleases the target demographic, while still being sophisticated and nuanced in its portrayal of relationships. And I wish there were more games like that.

Oh yes, there are definitely great games that are basically dating sims or at least have that as a core aspect, though I can't quite think of any right now. And I would like to see more games with better writing of relationships, or at least with something new to the genre as opposed to the same old relationship tropes thrown in the same ways, but I think that's sort of relatively new thing. Well not really new-new, but like, otome games have gained a lot of drive in recent years, so I think they're starting to get more colored with newer ideas about romance then the same stuff we've been fed for a while. I'm willing to bet a similar phenomenon might be happening to bishoujo, but I wouldn't really know about that. But media is pretty slow as a whole, at least, from what I've seen, about changing their formulas, even if they should. And doing new things to the usual formula can be pretty daunting, it definitely takes more work and it has a larger risk factor of turning people off because it's not what they're used to or you've done it in a way that doesn't really appeal to many people. If you get it right, you can win pretty big, get it wrong, you can lose pretty big as well. Still, it'd be nice to see more complex and varied relationships, preferably by people who've actually had relationship experience, just for the sake of getting it right.

There's also that I've found as I've gotten older I don't like the shell type character protag so much as a character with their own personality, and I kind of wonder if that's a preference that comes with age as you get less and less able to fit into the shell that games provide. As a young kid, your imagination is usually fresher and it's easier to sink into fantasy and shells, when you get older your experiences make it harder to suspend your disbelief.

[Kuiper]

A fourteen year old girl will probably play an otome game with an older protagonist because adult life is fed to us as glamorous or at least dramatic as compared to middle school life. (Which, actually, may be why so many otome game protagonists act somewhat childish to older fans, because these games are marketed so that younger girls can relate, not older people.)

One of the things that I see consistently taught in writing classes and workshops on YA and middle grade fiction is the notion that YA and middle grade readers want to read about protagonists that are 2 years older than they are, but with mentalities and behaviors that are consistent with their own. (This is true of all genres, not just romance.) So if you are writing a story that appeals to 14-year-old girls, your protagonist should be a 16-year-old girl who thinks and acts like a 14-year-old girl. Regardless of any opinions that I have on the matter, that's what works (or to be more accurate, that's what sells).

[Steamgirl]

I sort of agree with the OP. While I get that in many cases it is a teenage fantasy, I think it's possible to write many stories that resonate while still having a confident protagonist looking for a healthy relationship.

The key to romance stories is that the protagonist and the love interest can't be together until the end - something should separate them until they are able to overcome it - while something else should draw them together. For example, A-ko can't be with B-kun because she's human and he's a vampire, but they're both on the student council and have to organise the end-of-year festival. Or, A-ko is in love with B-kun, but so is her best friend C-ko, who told everyone, so A-ko can't pursue B-kun. But both A-ko and B-kun have been chosen for the athletics team and have to train together.

Then you add conflict to make sparks fly. For example, A-ko and vampire B-kun have very different views of what the perfect end-of-year festival should look like, for example she wants it in the day, he wants it at night, etc. And in the second case, C-ko and B-kun have been voted as school King and Queen, and A-ko has been asked to organise a school Valentine's event with them as center stage.

The protagonist and the love interest have to use everything they have to overcome their obstacles and reconcile their differences in a believable and satisfying way. A meek insecure protagonist won't be able to handle the challenge. Sparks wouldn't fly. They would just let B-kun do whatever he wants with the festival. A-ko would just watch C-ko take B-kun away from her. (Flip it around if it's the boy that pursues the girl.)

Just my two cents.