Budgeting and Prices

[Parataxis]

How do you gauge what a fair price is for developing a project's budget?

First, a story: Not too long ago I engaged a friend of mine who is an artist to do some backgrounds for my project's Demo. He was having a summer commission sale, so I thought I'd give him a shot. However, his prices were initially gauged for doing full paintings with characters in them, so there was a little bit of price confusion over what he should charge for backgrounds only, eventually we settled on $13 per piece ($10 per + some additional for the size of the order). It was only much later, when interacting with other VN developers from these forums that I learned that this was obscenely cheap, especially for the quality of work he we delivering. I eventually contacted him and asked permission to add a payment of $5 to each, which he accepted, though a bit confused. It was incredibly mortifying to me, especially since he was a friend, who has done excellent work for the project and who was already giving me a discount for his stunning work.

Since then, I have decided to do my best to not undervalue artists doing work for my projects. However, I have found that it is simply not very easy to determine what a fair price is outside of direct sprite art (for which there is a lot of aggregated data). It seems like it should be a pretty straightforward process to find out, but for some reason it's not.

Prices for GUI, for instance, seem to fluctuate wildly between people, from $20 to $80 to $200--and that's just the first page of the recruitment forum. It's difficult to know how much I need to build into a budget to get good GUI. Music is, if anything, more frustrating because most composers don't even post prices and instead require you to PM them to get a quote. I know this is probably quite reasonable from their end, since different sorts of music are different levels of complexity, but I don't really want to bother 15 composers with a PM that probably won't even lead to a job just to get a sense for the market.

Is there a better way to get a sense for what is a fair price in the VN asset market? I am doing a lot of the basic work myself, but I want to make sure that I am giving people a fair shake. On the other hand, if I end up making a Kickstarter or equivalent then I had better be realistic in how much money I need.

[firecat]

its random no one knows the right number, the only way to cut your lost would be to make the art, music and coding yourself.

[Parataxis]

its random no one knows the right number, the only way to cut your lost would be to make the art, music and coding yourself.

I am already doing the sprite art, writing and coding the game in house with my small team, not to mention directing the project's creative vision, making the Demo Logo/GUI, and handling the marketing myself. Trust me, if it was possible for me to do it all, I would. However, I think it's not unreasonable to ask people who have been through this process before what their experiences are, and if there are any tricks or resources I could use to help me become more informed. If most people end up paying $5 for a 3 minute song then I know that if I hire some one for $20 a song then I am paying for something a little extra. On the other hand, if $20 per 3 Minute Song is a standard price then I might find it beneficial to outline a soundtrack appropriately. As much as I am interested in not getting ripped off, I am also interested in not ripping anyone off--and if that means offering to pay the person something more for their work than their proposed price I am fully willing to do so. Saving money is not the object, but needing money is something I will need to be able to plan around moving forward. I just want to KNOW what I need to expect.

[infel]

Truth is there is no clear answer. What I suggest is make a budget for yourself that you can afford and then try and find someone who is willing or is at the price range your looking for. I do understand about underpricing though. I too have upped the price sometimes when I feel like the person is charging them too low.

For you maybe look at the prices in the recruitment forum and get an idea on what people are asking for. Most people, for example, price CG's between 50-100 dollars.

If you're going to do a Kickstarter I suggest already have a team made with at least an artist, composer, and maybe a background artist (also coder if you don't know how to code). The reason I saY get them first is it's good to know what their prices are and then after you plan out what you need you'll be able to calculate with their pricing and have the sum needed. It won't be exact though, but having an idea on the amount you'll likely need is always a good idea.


Like I said it's a bit hard to have an exact budget for a visual novel. For GUI I suggest finding someone who you think does a good job. If they are 200 or more put it into your budgeting. If you're not sure who you want, make it about 80 but allow yourself some wiggle room in case you find someone who may higher prices. For example you'll start at 80 and will go up to 200, but not past 240. That way if needed you'll have the funds and if you don't spend them you can use them for something else needed for the project.

Musicians are a bit harder. I suggest you first listen to a lot of their music and then decide if their work matches your game. That way you won't be sending email to ten of them at a time. Besides that it's more on the poster for not putting up prices which can be a problem DX.

I hope my advice helps a little bit ='). It may not be the best, but it might be of some help for beginners.

[D.ray]

Agreed.... I don’t think there is a general correct price. The only correct price is one that you are willing to pay. It helps to first have an overview of your project. How long or short it will be, the number of sprites, and backgrounds you think you will need, as well the number of songs. From there you can see which area will take the largest number of assets and set a budget based on how much you are willing to spend on each area. I know some of these may not apply to you since you mentioned you are doing a lot of the games work yourself.

I do see prices fluctuate wildly for artists, composers and other things. I think for the most part the prices offered by them are fair. Sometimes you do get lucky and come across someone great who puts out quality work for what might be considered minimal pay. There could be a number of reasons behind why that is, but eventually I’m sure they end up rasing their rates, especially if they become very in demand.

I think it’s great you don’t want to undervalue others. And if you do hire someone who does great work, but feel their pay should be greater, I see nothing wrong with increasing their salary as long as you can afford it. As far as I’m concerned, paying what the artists, or whoever else you hired, asks, is the best practice. If after the work is completed, and you feel they deserve something extra, be it in pay, referring them to other projects, or taking them out for lunch, go right ahead. I’ve seen this practice happen a lot in music and in other industries when the client is happy with how the process went and with the end product.

On the subject of composers, I can give you a bit of my insight. Much like every other area, it varies wildly. You’ll see some that will work for free, others charge per minute of music and that can range from anywhere from $10 to $100 and above. Some charge based on number of instruments used within a song or how complex it is. However, for the most part, composers charge per minute of music or per song,. Like every other area, you should find out either how much your willing to spend on music, or find a few composers you like and see how much their services will cost and go from there.

I do think it’s strange how some composers will post rates, while others will require you to PM them. I think this usually comes down to two reasons, one, they charge based on complexity, and two, they might not want to scare off potential customers if they feel their price range might be high. Personally, I post the general price I charge and follow up by stating I’m indie friendly and willing to work within budget, but should be PMed for further discussion.

The best thing you can do is set a budget for whatever area you need by how much you want to spend, or the possible cost of hired work from someone you like, and continue from there.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Parataxis - read this thread by Greeny. It offers a very in-depth discussion of the subject from artists and game producers both.

I give my own thoughts quite extensively in that thread as well.

[Tempus]

While prices fluctuate, having a range to work with is still an improvement over nothing. Generally speaking you're going to need to have an idea of the cost of living in the person's country relative to your own to be able to work out a fair price. If you want to kickstart I'd strongly recommend commissioning the person first for test pieces. That way you know their prices, workflow, turnaround, and so on before you're too heavily invested.

[KittyWills]

The lemma forums and VN games in general seems to have a skewed economy when it comes to pricing. Probably because 90% of people are amateurs, but prices are VERY LOW. And every contract you make with people will differ.

A good rule of thumb is to give "minimum wage". Find out what it is in your(or theirs, you have the pay the higher one) country and find out an average of how long it will take to make the product. You should never go below this. Industry pricing tends to be double or even triple this.

I'm tangent-ing a bit. But games are expensive, if you want a certain quality you have to be willing to pay for it. I work two jobs to afford my game and comic projects. My current project is at $1000 and it's a small game with only two characters and this is just art. I'm still looking for a composer. Plus any outside expenses add up.

If you are looking for a realistic price, and I can only speak from my own experiences from working in illustrations. If you are buying everything I'm going to estimate $2500 for a small 5-8 hour game, no more then 2 characters and minimal backgrounds. Since you're doing a lot in house. For music and backgrounds you could probably stay under $1000 if you stay smallish. And these are low-ball for lemma pricing.

I'll admit, I'm not the best gauge for lemma since I hire mostly outside the forums and I'm quality nut. I'm willing to pay $50, $100 and more for a music track or for art if I get the quality I want. and quite frankly anything less then $50 for anything is insulting to your creative team.

I'm rambling, I get a bit emotional about this sort of stuff. lol I second the link that Rabbit posted. Lot of good advice in there.

[RotGtIE]

As a commissioner, you should only be concerned with whether the price is affordable and the quality of work is acceptable to you. It is not your business to decide for an asset creator what their prices should be - that is entirely within their jurisdiction. "Fair" is just one of those words people try to inject into negotiations in the hopes of skewing the prices more to their favor; ignore such manipulative appeals to your emotions and simply make your deals based on what you want and what you can afford to offer in exchange.

[SundownKid]

To find what a "fair price" might be, you really need to know where they are living, how long the project will take and what the average hourly pay for that profession is. Then diverge from the average based on their skill level and add an additional tip because a fair price for a freelancer is always higher than an equivalent time for a salaried employee.

So assuming in X country an average artist makes $15 an hour, they are of average skill and this background takes them 6 hours, then a fair price might be $100 for the background.

[Tempus]

The lemma forums and VN games in general seems to have a skewed economy when it comes to pricing. Probably because 90% of people are amateurs, but prices are VERY LOW. And every contract you make with people will differ.

This is very on point. Aside from regional differences I think the membership being quite young on average also factors into this.