[Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

For recruitment of team members to help create visual novels and story-based games, and for people who want to offer their services to create the same.
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[Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#1 Post by PyTom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:56 pm

The Lemma Soft forums are meant as a place for creators to have discussions about the creation of visual novels and story-based games. While we have sections for services offered and recruiting, these aren't the purpose of this forum. I've noticed a number of users who primarily participate in the forums by repeatedly posting to their services offered thread, so as to keep it towards the top of the list of threads in the services offered forum.

I don't like this, as it has the effect of producing a large number of posts that do not engender any discussion, and encourages others to produce similar posts to keep their own post near the top. Therefore, in consultation with the other administrators, I've decided to change the forum rules to end this cycle and increase the number of threads that lead to discussion.
16.) Services Offered
A user is allowed to post an update to their services offered thread once every two months. A services offered thread is a thread in the "I am a..." sections, offering to perform some creative service for compensation. An update is any post that is not:

a) A direct reply to a question or comment posted by another user.
b) A note that you are no longer offering your services.

Editing posts is allowed, but bumping the thread counts as an update. Threads that are updated in egregious violation of this rule will be deleted from the forum.
Feel free to post any comments or discussion on this thread.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#2 Post by zankizuna » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:15 pm

Full support! It's really fun to be a part of great mind bending discussions with really long paragraphs. There's like so much knowledge in threads like those.
If i participated more, i'd probably be a better writer than a commissions seeking artist i am now.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#3 Post by voloshenko » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:58 pm

What should an artist do when he actively participates in creating new content for visual novels and wants to share with other information about participation in the project? In what section he could demonstrate his works? It does not involve a specific customer search, but is an element of content filling that looks like a post update.
The main content of messages in this section consists of praise or criticism of the author, the author's latest work or a specific message that the author is looking for work.Perhaps it is worth to clarify exactly that authors have the right to update no more than once two month (absolutely all created content or just job search reports).Customers feedbacks on the work of the artist are important for site. but How about new content? It`ll be great to create a separate group for artists, writers, programmers, etc. in which they will be sorted by rating according to their activity in creating new content. How do you think?

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#4 Post by PyTom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:45 pm

voloshenko wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:58 pm
What should an artist do when he actively participates in creating new content for visual novels and wants to share with other information about participation in the project? In what section he could demonstrate his works? It does not involve a specific customer search, but is an element of content filling that looks like a post update.


I don't think that we need simple demonstrations of the quality of your work very often. By the time someone is at the commercial level, the quality of their work shouldn't be changing daily, or even weekly. It seems like it should be adequate to queue up new work for a couple of months, pick your best work to represent you, and post that. These are meant to be forums, not an art gallery.
It`ll be great to create a separate group for artists, writers, programmers, etc. in which they will be sorted by rating according to their activity in creating new content. How do you think?
I don't think that's something I want to run. I'd much rather have a thread in which someone is redlined than a large number of posts that create no feedback whatsoever.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#5 Post by Imperf3kt » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 pm

I support this.

If you are offering paid work, you'll get better responses by putting a fancy looking link in your signature and being active in the forum, than what you will by constantly bumping one thread to the top of a subforum.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#6 Post by Empish » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:53 pm

I support this wholeheartedly. I always thought the frequent bumping of threads by more-established people offering services makes things harder for newer people to break into the business, so to speak.

I almost want to request a similar rule for the Works In Progress subforum, because that often has the same problem.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#7 Post by sorabokki » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you, Tom, for putting this in place! I agree as well. Services offered should act more as a portfolio than - as you say - an "art gallery." There is a more appropriate sub-forum for frequent postings.
Empish wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:53 pm
I almost want to request a similar rule for the Works In Progress subforum, because that often has the same problem.
I'm not quite sure a similar rule for the WIP subforum would be appropriate just because some people work at different intervals. Progress made by one team in 2 days could equate to the work you see from another project in 2 months. I, for example, was working on a project (currently on hiatus) and had (almost) daily updates because I made tremendous progress each day. It might serve as inspiration for people to see small but sure wins each day about a team's development.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#8 Post by PyTom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:33 pm

Empish wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:53 pm
I almost want to request a similar rule for the Works In Progress subforum, because that often has the same problem.
That'll be coming down the pipe in a bit, I suspect. I've already been deleting a number of "patreon spam" posts, where a "release" consisting entirely of minor changes that nobody could possibly care about (demonstrated by the way nobody has replied to the last 3 similar posts in the thread) is used to bump a thread. But it's hard to make a precise distinction between bumps and legitimate updates that people will want to discuss, and that doesn't become a gotcha.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#9 Post by Gaudeamus » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:52 pm

I do not know if I'm in a position to participate in this discussion when I have not participated much in the forums and I'm relatively new around here

But I agree, I think that for example in the case of artists is more than enough to put a link to your page of devianart, behance, pixiv, etc, maybe put about 5 or 6 images with part of your work and already, really I do not find any sense in placing his newest work here, which, as Pytom says, is a community to discuss visual novels, not one of artists, at least that is what I think.

Maybe what would also be helpful is each forum will anchor a post to putting a list of people who offer their services for example in seeking artists put a list of people who offer their services, the same in programmers, music, etc and anchor this post in these forums and make the other post mentioning the people who offer their services, obviously this list could be edited every month for example, maybe it is a problem but it is the only thing I think at this moment
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#10 Post by DarkChibiShadow » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:07 am

Just to be clear; (cuz I don't wanna flub up) I can post to my "I'm an artist offering services" thread with new art I've done for VN's TWICE every month without problem?
And edits to any post don't count towards this count?

^^ I don't think I'll be needing to do it more than twice a month-- I just want to be double EXTRA clear about this since I don't want my thread deleted ;___;
Thanks!
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#11 Post by TyberAlyx » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:59 pm

DarkChibiShadow wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:07 am
Just to be clear; (cuz I don't wanna flub up) I can post to my "I'm an artist offering services" thread with new art I've done for VN's TWICE every month without problem?
And edits to any post don't count towards this count?

^^ I don't think I'll be needing to do it more than twice a month-- I just want to be double EXTRA clear about this since I don't want my thread deleted ;___;
Thanks!
I think you can edit as much as you like, though posting an update (like a new reply to your own thread) can only be done once every two months.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#12 Post by Taleweaver » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:08 pm

TyberAlyx wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:59 pm
I think you can edit as much as you like, though posting an update (like a new reply to your own thread) can only be done once every two months.
Exactly. That's what the rule means.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#13 Post by Cindigo » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:18 am

PyTom wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:33 pm
Empish wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:53 pm
I almost want to request a similar rule for the Works In Progress subforum, because that often has the same problem.
That'll be coming down the pipe in a bit, I suspect. I've already been deleting a number of "patreon spam" posts, where a "release" consisting entirely of minor changes that nobody could possibly care about (demonstrated by the way nobody has replied to the last 3 similar posts in the thread) is used to bump a thread.
So, basically, if no one answers your game thread, you better leave this community? We don’t need your presence, time to finally notice that! Is that the message higher ups are trying to push out? I may be wrong, but this forum mostly has only a few audiences:
  • people who are here to upsell themselves to others or sell their products, because it’s quick cash for them
  • people who don’t know how to read documentation or use a search engine
  • people who are into R18
That can be deduced based on subforum activity. There are a few other, but just a few. I rarely see anything that could be considered even close to a meaningful discussion. If you keep the same audience and community, nothing is going to change. If communication isn’t someone’s goal then no rule will change that.

I'll not even start on bigger issues like - who is going to be all knowing God and will evaluate someone's progress reports.

How about expanding this and adding a rule against creating a new "recruitment thread" every few weeks? A few people start more new games a month than big companies can in a decade. That looks like an accepted practice here.

As for “I am...” threads – this rule solves almost nothing, because popular threads will still be up there just because they are popular and they will be full with short messages that should instead be communicated through personal messages. Short glorifying reviews as well.

If you want meaningful conversations, then write corresponding rules (etiquette) and more importantly – enforce these rules. I worked as moderator and later super moderator in a few local forums for a company called Gameforge and what I see here on a daily basis would quickly lead to silencing or a ban for a few days. Here, spam threads stay up for tens of hours, off-topic is a must, misplaced threads stay where they were.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#14 Post by Ryuno » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:57 am

Here is the thing: most people would never reply to threads on services offered. Even the ones interested in your services contact you directly via PM or e-mail.

I can see no benefit whatsoever from limiting bumps filled with content in their appropriate zones. I personally only bump when I'm free for new gigs and that helps because as soon as a potential client sees me bumping, they can message me knowing that I am still alive and have used a computer in the past few moments. Being able to know an adequate freelancer is active is vital information for an developer, and this whole thing puts it behind them checking potentially several pages of others due to a two month wait period. It sounds preposterous for anyone with a job or other responsibilities to have to consciously wait two months to bump a thread, while having whatever quantity of content available.

This rule could effectively kill freelancing and collaborations on this site. Updated content should always be fair game, and to have it otherwise is punishing people for being productive on a creative-oriented community, no less.

Edit: forgot to mention, this is coming from someone who has been in this community for years, has worked on many, many projects from here (commercial and non-commercial) and holds the second place in views for all composers in that subforum (the first one being Ziassan, who hasn't bumped his thread since 2015). This is kind of pushing people like me, Matthew Dear, Nathan Cleary, or Noyemi K. out, not to mention many drawing artists. Are we to bother clients to bump our threads for us? It is also begging for more alt accounts to show up on the forum for the sole purpose of bumping such threads, to which the moderation team will have little control over unless you start vetting everybody coming in the forum.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#15 Post by PyTom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:38 am

Cindigo wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:18 am
So, basically, if no one answers your game thread, you better leave this community?
If nobody answers your game thread, and you don't participate anywhere else, then you aren't part of the community, are you? This isn't like a commercial website, where I have something to win to by growing the community for the sake of reporting metrics to my boss - this is an actual community here. The point of this change is to get people to stop simply treating LSF solely as a jobs board.
I rarely see anything that could be considered even close to a meaningful discussion.
Sorry, but that's the problem here. I see them all the time, since I read every post on the forum, to a greater or lesser extent. They're just being swamped out right now, and I want to change that.
How about expanding this and adding a rule against creating a new "recruitment thread" every few weeks? A few people start more new games a month than big companies can in a decade. That looks like an accepted practice here.
Citation needed. I'm looking over the recruitment threads, and I don't see anything that seems abusive in them. When people post multiple times, it seems to be to fill multiple specific roles in the project.
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