Facts that inspire your story

[JQuartz]

Thinking "what would an evil person do in this situation?"

Wouldn't it be easier to just think "what would a person hell-bent on destroying/taking over the world do in this situation?"

[Jake]

Wouldn't it be easier to just think "what would a person hell-bent on destroying/taking over the world do in this situation?"

The first problem with such shallow and unexplained motivation is that it doesn't always make it easy to work out what such a character would do in situations not directly related to taking over the world.

If your hypothetical 2-dimensional villain's second in command fails him, what does he do? A different villain, who's a control freak and wants everything to be running totally smoothly all the time might execute the henchman; conversely, one who's sick of the hypocritical evils of society and wants to remake the world in his enlightened image might tell the henchman to do better next time and try and retrain him so he's as good a henchman as he can be.


Fundamentally, a good villain is one that the audience can identify with, because having a recognisable human quality, especially if the audience can see a bit of themselves in that character, makes them a far more potent antagonist. The audience will fear and respect and hate far more a threat which they can recognise and identify with.

Consider the difference between a fanatical political-extremist dictator and a landslide.

The landslide is totally characterless, much like the villain whose only goal is to take over the world. Once you've saved the village from the rocks, you don't give the landslide a second thought; it's over, the danger has passed, you'll forget about it in a day or two. It wasn't a malicious rockfall, just a natural event. The rockfall didn't have any obvious direct cause (most people aren't hardcore geologists), it's just bad luck that they happened to fall near your village.

The dictator, on the other hand, has a captivating political ideology behind him - and pretty much every dictator-producing fanatic ideology is rooted in common human desires, usually things like revenge for past iniquity (e.g. Robert Mugabe) or populist scapegoating for present troubles (e.g. Hitler) or whatever. Even if you don't recognise a part of yourself that could agree with some part of their ideology, you can certainly imagine a human being who does, they're understandable motivations. The victims of such a regime feel all the more victimised by the fact that somebody chose to inflict this wrong upon them specifically, there's an act of malice - or at least aggression - behind it. Even once you topple the regime and execute/imprison the dictator, you know that you can't totally eliminate that kind of thinking, there's every chance that some other iniquity or problem somewhere else will give rise to another equally-bad regime. You remember the dictator much longer than the landslide because you can identify with it, you can understand on a fundamental emotional level where the dictator gets his power from, and you know that as long as humanity exists it's a constant threat.

[JQuartz]

If your hypothetical 2-dimensional villain's second in command fails him, what does he do?

He'll kill the guy. Personally, I feel the main problem with 2 dimensional characters (not just villains) is the lack of connection between the player/reader and the character which makes it harder to make use the character to make an emotional impact on the player/reader, instead of not knowing what actions the character might take in a given situation.

[LVUER]

Not really. You are talking from "more reasonable/adult" POV. Really, when you look at "younger" anime/manga, how much reason/rational you could get?

By "younger" you mean newer anime/manga, or titles for kids? In any way I have to disagree. Japanese animation is quite untypical, both in terms of transmission and story telling. It isn't cliched, nor trite (in most cases), and those terms are more relevant to our biased american and european animation. I don't say that every anime/manga is original to the bones, as well as every our title is bad and shallow, but even looking at the books or films about heroic tales, we can more often see that anime/manga heroes or heroines aren't that good after all and have different psychological problems, and villains are more twisted (that doesn't mean, they have to be bad). It's rather our way to try and idealize everything (hey kids, you never know what you may learn from reading comic books! ) and making everything to seem plain white/black which obviously isn't a standard case in reality. There's also a different story concerning problems with cultural and social differences.

The problem with bad "not being" true is that artists and storywriters aren't that much productive nowadays, yet they still think there's still a way by just creating a villain and giving him the simple reason to do bad things. Most of creators don't look to deep into those problems and don't even bother to try and make their characters more "real" or "human", because people will buy their work anyway... As for example, aren't most of the marvel books just plain boring? It's the same, over and over again... The point is, that I don't want and don't intend to dream being a superhero. I want to be normal. That's why I read manga instead of american comics (and I don't like them either)...

How do you people tend to create evil roles in your novels (if you have one) ?

It's a fact, that the best stories often come straight from reality, with a bit of twist of this and "that". I find also books to be a very good source of interesting ideas. If you're looking for very interesting stories, try to read one of Stephen King's books. He's an master in describing human psychology and moral problems, not to mention his mostly twisted ideas.To be honest, we sometimes don't need a "deep" villain. It's just the story, that can make his case interesting. If you didn't watched "The Cell", do it. It's another perfect example how you can create interesting villains.

Well, yeah, not all using something cliche. And some anime for kids even have the bad guys quite detailed (Yugi is one of them). BTW, with younger, I mean for kids.

There are lots of reason to make evil guy just plain evil. Money, time, and for the sake of simplicity are among of the reasons. I forget the title but there are several Bomberman title (manga, then become anime) where the bomberman using gundam B-Dama-like mecha (where the mecha have huge canon in their stomach). Or perhaps in Tokusatsu Movies, like Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, or Ultraman. In those title, although some evil guy have reason/motives (like hynotized by the evil king), the evil king itself is ... evil. No reason/background to be evil. Oh! There is a reason, it's in the blood! Family tradition ^_^

Why the Evil King is evil? Why the Demon King is so ... demonic? Why the Dark General follows and revives the Dark King? Although some evil guys could have some reason to be twisted, some better be left at being, purely evil. Because King of bad ass is born to be a bad ass.

Oh, why Kagumo (or who it is, I forget) and Naraku is so evil? Inuyasha is clearly not for children.

And just because black/white is clearly presented, not means there's nothing to be learnt. Actually, I'm more leaning to East (Anime) side. When black/white is so obvious, it's time to learn some friendship, courage, (and perhaps some purity). No love please ^_^ this is for children only, meaning no fan-service too, hehehe...

Yugi-Oh, is not for too-young audience. Watching it still need some thinking. The card game, while easier than Magic, still quite hard (and need lots of money). Of course, the older the audience, more complicity could be added. But still... there is no boundary when creativity is involved. Just be sure not to make those little children crying, scared, or confused. I still remember when the actor for Changerion that liked by many children, was then hated and scared many children when that same actor play Kamen Rider Ouja (a freak, psycho, kamen rider). Kids... heh... (shivering)...

[Dalton]

I actually don't see any of my characters as the bad guys. I just think of them as the guys that the main character wants to stop...
I just hate the "evil evil" type, because there is no such thing as being evil. The antagonists will think that they are doing the right thing. For them our heroes are the evil ones.
I don't mean that people should tell us about the tragic past or whatever all the time, but just having in mind why our villain does what he does makes him way more believable when writng him.

[LVUER]

I actually don't see any of my characters as the bad guys. I just think of them as the guys that the main character wants to stop...
I just hate the "evil evil" type, because there is no such thing as being evil. The antagonists will think that they are doing the right thing. For them our heroes are the evil ones.
I don't mean that people should tell us about the tragic past or whatever all the time, but just having in mind why our villain does what he does makes him way more believable when writng him.

I don't want argue about that for now. Besides, your argument has its right too, for a product directed for more adult consumer. But still, if it's a product for children, sometimes pure evil character are needed. Perhaps it's like when your 5 years old kids asking you "Is stealing bad? Is killing someone bad? Are terrorist who bomb the subway (and killing 325+ people) are bad guys? (And so on)"

Will you answer "Oh, it's all depends you know. Although the police/law view them as a bad guy, but for them, they are the one who good, they have reasons doing so, blah blah blah." With that kind of response, I bet your kids will be confused.

[Dalton]

I don't want argue about that for now. Besides, your argument has its right too, for a product directed for more adult consumer. But still, if it's a product for children, sometimes pure evil character are needed. Perhaps it's like when your 5 years old kids asking you "Is stealing bad? Is killing someone bad? Are terrorist who bomb the subway (and killing 325+ people) are bad guys? (And so on)"

Will you answer "Oh, it's all depends you know. Although the police/law view them as a bad guy, but for them, they are the one who good, they have reasons doing so, blah blah blah." With that kind of response, I bet your kids will be confused.

Okay, point given. Of course you are right with that. Heck when I was younger my villain even was someone who was evil just because he was evil. (But that story sucked bad) Children don't have that way of thinking, I argued. But since I am writing my storys for an audience, that does not consist of kids, I tend to forget about that aspect.

[Guest]

I don't think of making the "evil guy", or so. I just get the characters to look as peoples. Like, for example, a gentle doctor who is real nice to his patients, but since her wife's life is into the line, he goes making experiences with his patients. He sees that as a bad thing (and I think, bad/good things are just a matter of point of view), and he regret needing to doing so. But it's the last resort he has to at least try to prolong her wife's life a bit.

If you just hear he's trying to save his wife's life, and how his patients like him you'll think he's the good guy. If you just hear he's making experiences with his patients, you'll think he's the bad guy. But what if you hear the whole story? Will you think he's the bad guy, or the good guy?

I think he's a people, just one more human like me, and that's my inspiration for all characters in my stories ^.-

[killdream]

Oh, btw, that was me ^

Just forgot to login before posting ^.^'

[uluuu]

But still, if it's a product for children, sometimes pure evil character are needed. Perhaps it's like when your 5 years old kids asking you "Is stealing bad? Is killing someone bad? Are terrorist who bomb the subway (and killing 325+ people) are bad guys? (And so on)"

Will you answer "Oh, it's all depends you know. Although the police/law view them as a bad guy, but for them, they are the one who good, they have reasons doing so, blah blah blah." With that kind of response, I bet your kids will be confused.

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach kids early on that the world is not that simple? I mean, you probably shouldn't launch into a tirade about moral relativism when a kid asks you if killing someone is bad, but understanding why someone does something does not necessarily mean that what they are doing is justified. Being able to think things through and analyze them is important.
Then again, I'm not a parent, so maybe I'm just being idealistic.

ON TOPIC! I think?
Usually I'm influenced by... Well, a lot of things. Like my old, teen angst-ridden journals. A person that emotionally immature could be really terrifying, with enough power (or even if they thought they had that much power). Ideologies are fun to play with as well. Like, what if wikipedia's "no original research" was a law applying to journalism? Weird stuff like that. Mythology is funtimes.

[Dalton]

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach kids early on that the world is not that simple? I mean, you probably shouldn't launch into a tirade about moral relativism when a kid asks you if killing someone is bad, but understanding why someone does something does not necessarily mean that what they are doing is justified. Being able to think things through and analyze them is important.
Then again, I'm not a parent, so maybe I'm just being idealistic.

The problem with this is that kids tend to have a general black and white thinking. Things are either evil or good. There is nothing in between. That's how the world is working for them. (Trust me. I was working at an elementary school for some time)
"Shades of Grey", only come with age. You need some psychological insight, to understand the motives of someone else. Children see themselves and their own feelings, but don't care for others as we do. So someone who harms them or people they like, is evil.
So even explaining it to them, will not have much of an effect, besides confusing them.

[JQuartz]

"Shades of Grey", only come with age.

I don't believe so. I have met a number of adults who can only see things in black and white only and I have seen a small number of children capable of seeing shades of grey. It's not really age but what the person actually went through before. Thinking also helps.

So even explaining it to them, will not have much of an effect, besides confusing them.

It depends on how grey the situation is. If it's only slightly grey, they will still be able to understand it. Just make sure the good guys have a lot of whiteness with only a bit of gray and villains have a lot of blackness and a bit of gray. For example, a hero that is kind hearted but very money minded. Or a villain who is destructive but is very hardworking. I think these will be easy to classify them as good or evil even for children.

[LVUER]

This is why good environment is very important for children. Children often fell, rather than think. As they grow older, then they started to use more 'rationality'. You will have a hard time teaching them, just to teach them something is right or wrong, let alone something 'gray' or morality. Heck, even high schooler still haven't really understand the word 'responsibility'. It's exclusive for adult (and being old doesn't mean you are an adult).

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach kids early on that the world is not that simple? I mean, you probably shouldn't launch into a tirade about moral relativism when a kid asks you if killing someone is bad, but understanding why someone does something does not necessarily mean that what they are doing is justified. Being able to think things through and analyze them is important.
Then again, I'm not a parent, so maybe I'm just being idealistic.

ON TOPIC! I think?
Usually I'm influenced by... Well, a lot of things. Like my old, teen angst-ridden journals. A person that emotionally immature could be really terrifying, with enough power (or even if they thought they had that much power). Ideologies are fun to play with as well. Like, what if wikipedia's "no original research" was a law applying to journalism? Weird stuff like that. Mythology is funtimes.

Of course... if you can jam it into those kids brain. We could teach them all those "life isn't fair, life isn't simple, and so on, and so on..." after they grow older. Even if the kid is genious, he/she is still a kid. Perhaps Mahou Sensei Negima is a good example of no matter how smart/great a kid is, kid still a kid.

[Dalton]

Of course it matters what you have been going through, but you should go through more stuff as you grow older. With age comes experience (or should come).
Honestly understanding that there are no things as good and evil is something that not everyone can get.

[JQuartz]

Honestly understanding that there are no things as good and evil is something that not everyone can get.

There is good and evil, just nothing is purely good or purely evil. I mean just look at newpapers or history books, and you can see a there a lot of evil people.Eg, Hitler, Osama, the guy which imprisoned his daughter and made her his sex slave(can't remember his name), etc. As for good people, unfortunately they don't seem to get into history books, so you got to search the net or learn it from the word of mouth. Eg. Mother Teresa, (eh, who else is good? Sigh, the world is seriously short of good people).So surely there are good and evil people.

With age comes experience (or should come).

It should but it's no guarantee so it would be more accurate to say people can only see the shades of gray with experience instead of age.