月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

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月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#1 Post by Satoh » Fri May 01, 2009 6:19 pm

月姫再度 ("Tsukihime Again"... Lit. 'Tsukihime a Second Time') is a collection of fanworks based in the Tsukihime portion of the 'Nasuverse.' It will include the official resources directly from arc.nsa and will be supplemented by my own work and anyone I successfully recruit. My intent is to try to stay faithful to the general feel and style of the originals, but also include several side stories from other fans... (Essentially I'm making another 'Fun Disc' like Kagetsu Tohya.)

This is NOT going to be a 'fanboy thing' I intend to do a good job, though I will only be able to work on it during times at which my inspiration permits. (Otherwise if I tried to keep working, the story would end up crappy, unoriginal in the least, overly convoluted, incredibly jumpy, or some combination of them all...)

Also I do intend to include at least one hentai scene... but... I can't be the one to write it... I have too much self-respect and too little... "creativity" to do it. The scene/s will likely be scrapped if I can't recruit any good writers willing to do it...(Note: though a hentai scene is a possibility, it won't be a main focus of the novel)

Literacy is a must.

About my time schedule... I am a student in college, during finals week... so, I'm a bit pressed at the moment. (one reason I need help...)

I mentioned before that I'd include supplements to the resources... I would really like someone who is good at CG, and willing to paint a few scenes. Also, I may provide lineart for a few new sprites, which I would need colored, preferably as close to the original style as possible. (copying others' work is no small task I know, but, as my tablet is currently busted... I have no very little means with which to do this myself.)

I understand basic Japanese etiquette and logic, and for what bits I'm sketchy on, I have a friend who is very well versed in it(visited the country several times.)

Being american, however, there will inevitably be discrepancies.

I will not tolerate name brands or proper-names of television, written work, or other media to appear in my story unless they are inherently from Japan. (It kills me when supposedly Japanese characters in Japan, are "watching Jerry Springer"... it makes me wish to bludgeon people with rusted toasters...)

Note that my writing ability is not reflected by my sarcastic nature, I can copy a personality. (I often find myself rewriting characters' dialogue when I discover I've used a word that character normally wouldn't.)

I fully intend to add portions of flowing-though writing into the novel as did the original authors.

The schedule for this is not planned, it will be finished when it 'feels' finished.(unless yet more fanworks of suitable quality are submitted)

If I've seemed forceful or overbearing, it is simply because I don't want this to be construed as a crappy attempt at fanfiction...

(note, having read Tsukihime and/or Kagetsu Tohya, is rather important. As for the mythology, there is a wiki that thoroughly explains most of it, should something be too cryptic.)

All that said, who's interested? Anyone?

If anyone would like to submit a work, but not explicitly join the project, that is fine, you will get your name in the credits if the "team"(however many that may be) decides it is acceptable. You may post the story, or only the concept here, and PM the full work to me, or anyone in the team(unless they state otherwise) for approval.

Admission Form
o Name
o Areas of expertise/interest
+this includes Ren'Py/Python programmers
+artists
+writers
+proofreaders/ debuggers
+story planners (I need a bit of help with this at the moment, namely the prologue)
o Whether or not you are willing to do/discuss the hentai area of the novel(optional info)
o Whether or not people may contact you with submissions

Multi-talented people are, of course, welcome.

The Story

The main story focuses, as always, on Tohno Shiki. It will branch in many directions, anywhere multiple branches can be created and finished with efficacy. (Easter-egg events are acceptable here)

it takes place mainly after Kagetsu Tohya, but can have branches that take place earlier (these will have to be started early, before any KT events are referenced)

Names will be written as they are in Melty Blood, which has all names officially translated to english. (Len is Len, not Ren, because it appears in Melty Blood as Len.)

Honorifics will be used, because they are relevant to the character interactions.

Main story characters will be Akiha, Arcueid, Ciel, Hisui, Kohaku, and Len, with the supplemental secondaries like the Inui's.

Sub Stories can appear in any amount, and focus on any character. (Preferably more than 3 stories, but it's all dependent.)
These may also be as serious, comical, downright mytho-breaking, or hentai as need be.

Characters in the side stories are as many or few as desired, including Satsuki, Sion(MB), Mech Hisui(Also MB), references to Fate/Stay Night, or original characters(if sprites are provided and they aren't ridiculous...)

I would like to revisit Nanako in at least one of these... (if possible, I haven't finished reading SOS Nanako-chan yet)

Ok, that's the deal, please let me know who's interested.
It has been brought to my attention, that regardless of innocent intent, this project is unlawful, and therefor must undergo serious revision or complete cancellation.

EDIT: Well, all of the misunderstanding of intent aside, I'm now reopening this under the understanding that I do not intend any illegality from it, nor take any credit for the works of TYPE-MOON and affiliated parties. Simply a fan work.
Last edited by Satoh on Sat May 02, 2009 8:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#2 Post by Satoh » Fri May 01, 2009 6:19 pm

Satoh
All VN aspects and Quality control.
Willing to discuss hentai, in mild detail preferably...
Accepting contact for submissions and applications.
Notes: I won't expect anyone to act as though they're being paid. And I will be participating in every aspect I expect anyone else to.
Last edited by Satoh on Fri May 01, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#3 Post by Hime » Fri May 01, 2009 6:51 pm

I'm not a Tsukihime fan so I'm not volunteering, but your post left this unclear: what is your part of the project? It seems like you're looking for all kinds of talents, but you don't really mention your own. ^^;
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#4 Post by Satoh » Fri May 01, 2009 6:56 pm

Ah, my apologies, I'm essentially doing a bit of everything, from planning, writing, and scripting to image editing, and scene animation quality control.

Basically I'm doing what I would if I were doing it alone... which currently I am. I could probably finish it with the scope of the original, but it would take, in all likelihood, several years.

EDIT: To be a little more clear, I'm not specifically ASKING for help, as much as letting people know my project exists and am willing to accept help if anyone wishes to. (If no one submits anything I may end up raiding fanfiction.net for my sub plots... which will be harder since FFN is full of really really bad writers... and a few decent ones. Giving proper credit and getting permission of course.)

Also... if anyone REALLY wants to... (I don't know why you would but... eh...) anonymous submissions are fine too... which would be simple since this forum supports 'Guest replies'.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#5 Post by Asceai » Sat May 02, 2009 8:38 am


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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#6 Post by Satoh » Sat May 02, 2009 11:27 am

Having read through that, I get the feeling you're telling me that I am in breach of copyright law... otherwise why would you have even posted it?

Still a simple warning of cease and desist would have been perfectly adequate, I feel.

I should point out, simply to shamelessly try to save face, that I had no intention of publishing, making money on, or distributing the work of the original authors, including but not limited to, musical, visual, and textual resources. To be fair, I left out intellectual resources simply because that would mean not even talking about concepts involved therein. I should also point out, that while none of the following, nor the preceding exempt me from any of this, I had no intention of claiming works not of myself as my own. I will also admit that, while I did read the entire document, I was strained to understand the thick layer of legal terminology, but I understood that which was I needed.

I will not, agree, however, to any accusation that I was willfully or maliciously intending to breach this convention, nor will I claim ignorance to the concepts therein previous to having read it.

I intended no direct or indirect infringement of the rights of the originating authors, granted by the document in question.

I can say with conviction, that nothing I say after this point seems to be able to redeem the thought behind this project, so it seems I must formally admit to it's receeding into a strictly personal modification of my own property stored within my computer, unless someone has any refutation to the necessity of said action.

Please forgive my attempts at personal enjoyment with people of like mind.


If in some way I have misunderstood your intent, please, feel free to correct me.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#7 Post by killdream » Sat May 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Dunno about Typemoon, but some japanese Visual Novels producers encourage doujinshis of their works (Mostly Manga, though, dunno about other VNs based on their works), but I don't think any of them would like to have their game ripped and their resources used without prior permission.

Actually, fanfictions and mangas using characters/stories from a game do infringe copyright too, but most of authors/creators permmit fans to do, because... well, it's a free and hurtless (in most of cases) manner of marketing their products and mainaining a fanbase. (those are mostly my thoughts, but something like that). Some authors, in other hand, don't permmit any use of their work at all, that's the case with Anne Rice, for example. You can't make anything based on her works, making money of it or not.

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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#8 Post by LVUER » Sat May 02, 2009 5:38 pm

I think TypeMoon is more generous about this kind of thing. Some game has ripped off sources from their games and TypeMoon just let it slide. As long as their fan is happy ^_^
But I don't know about other studios...

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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#9 Post by Satoh » Sat May 02, 2009 5:47 pm

In the end I never had any intention of ripping off or claiming their property as my own. The entire goal was to write something I could enjoy, and if others wished to help they could, of their own volition, with their own files.

Honestly I'm less upset by the idea of not being allowed to get help with the project than I am by the manner in which I was asked to stop.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#10 Post by PyTom » Sat May 02, 2009 6:18 pm

Honestly I'm less upset by the idea of not being allowed to get help with the project than I am by the manner in which I was asked to stop.
I'll note that the forum management has not weighed in. I think it's useful to point out that fanfiction is probably illegal, but I'm not going to stop discussion of it (like I would someone talking about pirate games, rom downloads, or things like that). I will stop discussion if the copyright holder complains to me.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#11 Post by Asceai » Sat May 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Honestly, I didn't mean anything by it; and I wasn't asking you to stop either.

However, if I pointed out that your project could possibly be in breach of international copyright law, someone else would chime in saying that it doesn't really work that way in Japan*, and then someone else would chime in agreeing, and all of a sudden I have to post explaining that, no, the fact that the copyright holder generally chooses NOT to pursue does not mean they can't.

In an apparently wasted effort to try and head off an unnecessarily elongated discussion like that, I decided I would simply link the relevant documents to point out (just in case the poster in question and other people potentially working on the project are unaware) that the project COULD be in breach of copyright** and leave it at that. But, no, it seems I can't do that either :(

*this actually happened. on these very fora, too!

**remember the situation where a bunch of people expended a huge amount of effort into a re-imagining of Chrono Trigger, only to be shut down by Square Enix later?

Remember how this happened TWICE, with totally different projects, both with similar goals? (and both being fairly far along when it happened). These didn't even use any resources from the original game!

Just saying, is all! I have no interest in acting as TYPE-MOON's international copyright police. I _am_ interested in making people, who, as the previous situation led me to believe, _may_ not necessarily be aware of copyright protection. If you are aware, there's no problem, to me!

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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#12 Post by Satoh » Sat May 02, 2009 7:51 pm

Asceai wrote:Honestly, I didn't mean anything by it; and I wasn't asking you to stop either.

However, if I pointed out that your project could possibly be in breach of international copyright law, someone else would chime in saying that it doesn't really work that way in Japan*, and then someone else would chime in agreeing, and all of a sudden I have to post explaining that, no, the fact that the copyright holder generally chooses NOT to pursue does not mean they can't.

In an apparently wasted effort to try and head off an unnecessarily elongated discussion like that, I decided I would simply link the relevant documents to point out (just in case the poster in question and other people potentially working on the project are unaware) that the project COULD be in breach of copyright** and leave it at that. But, no, it seems I can't do that either :(

*this actually happened. on these very fora, too!

**remember the situation where a bunch of people expended a huge amount of effort into a re-imagining of Chrono Trigger, only to be shut down by Square Enix later?

Remember how this happened TWICE, with totally different projects, both with similar goals? (and both being fairly far along when it happened). These didn't even use any resources from the original game!

Just saying, is all!
I see. Then I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I was in fact one of the signers of the official petition to Squenix about allowing the Resurrection... Quite frankly, I think Square felt threatened... I mean look at their recent travesty on the DS...

But anyway, much as I understand wanting head off long painful conversations... I've found there just isn't a way to satisfy everyone's perspective at once... (Case in point Myself this time around DX; )
Sorry to blow it all up...
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#13 Post by Nessiah » Sun May 03, 2009 7:59 am

If I'm not wrong, melty blood had so much freedom because type-moon let them and that Type Moon even requested to make the resources free to use by fans or something like that. So...
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#14 Post by Hime » Sun May 03, 2009 8:25 am

Nessiah wrote:If I'm not wrong, melty blood had so much freedom because type-moon let them and that Type Moon even requested to make the resources free to use by fans or something like that. So...
Except that it was co-developed by Type-Moon and French Bread and thus isn't one bit of a fan production, rendering this pretty much wrong. I highly doubt the resources are free either, taking to account that the game itself is commercial. It'd be suicidal of T-M and FB to make them free to use when they're trying to make a living out out of games... D:

Type-Moon has presented acceptance to fanworks in a way though, since they let 07th Expansion make a parody of Ciel (Chieru-sensei) in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. However, they had asked T-M beforehand and Chieru was well, just a parodied, minor character in the story, so we can't draw conclusions from this.
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Re: 月姫再度 (”Tsukihime Again”)

#15 Post by Satoh » Sun May 03, 2009 12:30 pm

Why does it feel like this won't stop until I hire a translator to write a formal request to TYPE-MOON...?


I should point out, however, that what the consumer does with the product, after it is in his/her possession, is up to their own discretion with the exception of making money on, or redistributing copies of said work without permission.


IE: If I get a book, I can legally use its pages to line my bird cage if I like. I can burn it, mangle it, mutilate it, use it as a make-shift cigarette paper, etc. The same is true of virtual media. Once the files are provided me, I have the right to do with them as I please, again, with the exception of distributing copies or making money on the content.

The redistribution of the original copy, is fine, so long as a duplicate does not remain in my possession.

Now, what I am proposing, for those who haven't understood, is that anyone wishing to work on this project, may decompress their own copy of arc.nsa, and have all of the needed files. (the music will need to be acquired separately.)

I, however, can provide the necessary files that ARE NOT part of TYPE-MOON's archive, and thus are my works. (this includes the main menu images, a few pictures, and all of the chapter titles. None of which explicitly show any of TYPE-MOON's intellectual property at this time.)

It should be noted also, that while fan art may quite technically be illegal, no one seems to mind it. (Kagetsu Tohya included much fan art from the TYPE-MOON website in its final release, as well as fan fiction.)

I will say, that this project is admittedly not fully legal to the intent of the law, but is not intended to be illegal, and will attempt to uphold the letter. (If TYPE-MOON happens to stumble across and further grace our little community here, leaving us the gift of a formal C&D then no further work shall progress on this project except for strictly personal use.((This means no help from others, and only using my files.))

Are we clear? I believe there IS a forum set up for the discussion of things like Japanese copyright law... and this is not it.

EDIT: Amazing, look at this...
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