Improving the Community

[PyTom]

Recently, we've been having a lot of forum discussions that turn into shouting matches. One person says something provocative, a second person responds, and suddenly, it's on. I'd really like to end that, and to try and bring back the spirit of civility and community that the forum has seemingly lost.

Frankly, the forum has gotten wearying at times, and more than once that weariness has taken me away from Ren'Py and my other tasks.

So, I'm going to ask for suggestions on how to improve the level of discussion and the level of civility here on the forum.

Let me set a ground rule here: At this point, (the very start of the discussion) I think it would be counterproductive to address the behavior of individual users. I'd rather focus this on trying to establish some sort of community standards that people are expected to adhere to, and as to what the remedies should be should a user fail to adhere to our expectations.

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll refrain from posting them for a few days, as I think that people here will come up with some good ideas.

[number473]

(Actually I was thinking that these forums were a bit more civilized than the usual lot, but I know what you mean.)

I don't think it is possible to root out trouble without clamping down on bad seeds at least to some degree. It may be noticed (not necessarily on this forum) that certain users tend to incite arguments, and that everything is peaceful otherwise. I won't say anything about surgical methods, though, because I'm still relatively new here.

[papillon]

I suspect trying to slashdotise the forum such that posts could be modded down to -1 Flamebait, causing fights to be quietly swept aside, would be a bit difficult.

*adjusts rose-colored sunglasses* I don't see any fighting!

[musical74]

I've noticed a few shouting matches....one thing I will say is that it's entirely possible to has complete disagreements and still be civil. POSSIBLY one way to get back to the civility that was abundant when I joined is to much totally ignore the person who is trying to incite someone - easier said than done, I know, but it has been my experience that when people ignore the person trying to incite people, they tend to go away because they don't get the attention they want.

[DaFool]

I actually prefer knowing who pissed of who, rather than having random guest posts insulting the community in general, with myself not sure whether I should be offended or not (often on the side of being offended because the post was offensive)

After a shouting match, why don't the parties just put each other on 'Foe' list so they won't have to bother reading each other's posts? Simple as that.

[Jake]

I suspect trying to slashdotise the forum such that posts could be modded down to -1 Flamebait, causing fights to be quietly swept aside, would be a bit difficult.

...not to mention introducing all the baggage and gaming that Slashdot has to deal with to do with that system, where people:

- mod down posts they don't like, regardless of whether they're actually flamebait, off-topic, etc, requiring a meta-moderation system on top of the moderation system to keep those users in line.
- mod down posts the community doesn't like, regardless of whether... etc. (e.g. pro-MS stuff when MS actually does something good) which will sometimes stay buried simply because enough Slashdot readers loathe MS irrationally to not care.
- write things like "now watch this post get modded into oblivion" in a reverse-psychology attempt which frequently works to get people to mod up their controversial post as 'insightful'.

If we instituted such a system, would PyTom ever see Delta's bug reports, or would all of Delta's posts be modded down to negative numbers because he so frequently writes them in an aggressive and unhelpful manner?

POSSIBLY one way to get back to the civility that was abundant when I joined is to much totally ignore the person who is trying to incite someone

This presumes that people go out of their way to have arguments and do so just for fun. Maybe I've missed some in the parts of the forum I don't tend to read, but that doesn't account for some significant proportion of the arguments we see on this forum. I know I'll easily be drawn into a discussion when someone states something that I strongly disagree with as fact, and generally they do this because they think the thing they said was true. Generally this has one of a few results: I listen to their arguments and see they're right - or at least not-wrong - or vice-versa; one of us gets bored and disappears; or I write them off as beneath my contempt or vice-versa. But some people would consider the posts in the middle as a 'shouting match' anyway, and I've been accused of having 'blazing rows' on the forum when at least my side of it has been perfectly calm, simply because some people seem to be under the opinion that two people disagreeing with each other is automatically a shouting match. I don't know where PyTom stands on this particular point, so I don't know what he's talking about in the opening post, but it does seem to be mostly an American habit; I'd put it down to political correctness, so far.

To be honest, I suspect that the real way to get the forum back to the nice and cosy place you knew when you first joined is to ban 9/10ths of the membership and close signups. Seriously - pretty much every forum I've seen has got worse and worse as it's got bigger and bigger. I expect that isn't an option, so the way I see it, the forum administration have a choice between introducing conduct rules and banning people for repeat violations, or putting up with it.

[F.I.A]

After a shouting match, why don't the parties just put each other on 'Foe' list so they won't have to bother reading each other's posts? Simple as that.

While it does spare you from viewing the posts, you still be seeing any new thread bumped by the FOE that it wouldn't really help much...

[Enerccio]

FIA: Nice song!

[Aashtarsrain]

Frankly, I hadn't noticed anything that bad, though I'm used to read a lot of threads (or maybe I'm reading those shenmue dojo forums too much and that's something, believe me !).

Maybe sometimes people could give their fellow renpy soldiers more patience in their explanations and reactions than they do, and some may be a little too demanding because they're passionate. And, besides appointing other mods, if some sections of the forum are more concerned than others, maybe we can do without them.

Sometimes, posts here look (and feel) longer than some visual novels . Maybe the forum should focus on the essential (though I'm perfectly aware not everybody has the same opinion on what's "essential" !!!!!). Unfortunately, "less" is never the same as "better" (another controversial opinion I'm afraid ).

[JQuartz]

So, I'm going to ask for suggestions on how to improve the level of discussion and the level of civility here on the forum.

Well, I seen some forums don't let new members start a thread. Maybe you could do the same for all forums except the renpy forum. Not only will this stop potential flamers from posting anything flamish, it will also make the new member know that renpy related post don't go to game makers corner. So maybe they need to reach like 100 posts before they could start a new thread.

As for new members posting at existing thread, allow everyone who is above 500 posts to delete these posts if they feel it is flamish in nature (the post count won't be reduced but it will get the new user a warning for first offence if justified, banned if repeated if justified. If not justified, the post stay deleted but the new member can just post it again.). This way, posts by delta won't be buried since delta is not a new member.

As for senior members, if they start a shouting match and Pytom feels it's justified (Pytom is the one making renpy so if Pytom gets weary and stops the development of Renpy, everyone in this forum suffers), have their post count reduced by 100. Once their post count reach below 100, they will be treated like new members.

[papillon]

JQuartz, that doesn't sound helpful at all. While I may have missed them, I've *never* seen a flamy thread started by a new member. What I do see new members post is:

The game project they want to start (something we don't want to prevent)
Requests for help with RenPy (something we don't want to prevent, although it often needs to be moved to the correct forum)
General discussion about games and what people want in them (something we don't want to prevent)
Spam, if they're spambots (something we DO want to prevent, but which already gets deleted when noticed)

Why would we want to intentionally hang up a sign saying "NO NEW PEOPLE WITH THEIR NEW PROJECTS ALLOWED"? Not to mention that post-number related limits are a guaranteed way to increase pointless spammy me-too posts... and arguing, because arguing is a great way to build up postcount fast.

As far as allowing members with high postcount to delete bad posts... again, postcount itself is no guarantee of quality. Now, many forums do have trusted members who are allowed to edit or delete problematic posts if things are getting out of hand. They're called moderators.

...not to mention introducing all the baggage and gaming that Slashdot has to deal with to do with that system, where people:

- mod down posts they don't like, regardless of whether they're actually flamebait, off-topic, etc, requiring a meta-moderation system on top of the moderation system to keep those users in line.
- mod down posts the community doesn't like, regardless of whether... etc. (e.g. pro-MS stuff when MS actually does something good) which will sometimes stay buried simply because enough Slashdot readers loathe MS irrationally to not care.
- write things like "now watch this post get modded into oblivion" in a reverse-psychology attempt which frequently works to get people to mod up their controversial post as 'insightful'.

If we instituted such a system, would PyTom ever see Delta's bug reports, or would all of Delta's posts be modded down to negative numbers because he so frequently writes them in an aggressive and unhelpful manner?

I was at least partially kidding, as my main point was that arguments only bring down the tone if you're paying attention to them in the first place. However, I'd like to think that people simply wouldn't make the effort to mod down delta's bug reports... it takes some crazy bloody-mindedness to follow someone around and complain about every single thing they post, surely? (Okay, some people do get touchy. But I would, perhaps incorrectly, think that most people are more likely to get their noses bent out of joint about a nasty commenter jumping into their own WIP thread than monitoring every single thing posted in the dev subforums.)

Also, the thing about modding-down rather than deleting is that the posts are still THERE, so people can see them if they make the effort... and I suspect PyTom would probably make the effort to look at any hidden comments in a thread that was obviously for bug reporting.

Modding down posts the community doesn't like regardless of their 'objective value' is not necessarily a bad thing if what you're trying to achieve is a harmonious environment. In terms of what we do here, what's so important that it absolutely must be shouted from the rooftops despite the community actively not wanting to hear about it?

[sake-bento]

Might it be useful to implement a modified version of the SA forum rules? Specifically, the ones about staying on topic?

[Exhausted]

Might it be useful to implement a modified version of the SA forum rules? Specifically, the ones about staying on topic?

Willing to second this.

Also, a larger crew of mods who are willing to enforce the rules in creative and heavyhanded ways would be beneficial.

[Midnighticequeen]

sake-bento wrote:
Might it be useful to implement a modified version of the SA forum rules? Specifically, the ones about staying on topic?

Willing to second this.

Also, a larger crew of mods who are willing to enforce the rules in creative and heavyhanded ways would be beneficial.

I think this is a good idea. but what would be the punishment for those who repeatedly break the modified version of the SA on purpose just to keep arguing? Would they get put on lemmasoft probation, have their account canceled, what?

[PyTom]

I've found the input valuable so far. Some responses to people who have posted:

papillion>>>

While potentially valuable, it would be difficult technically to implement a Slashdot-style moderation system. I'd also worry about balkanizing the forum experience, with some people seeing some subset of posts.

DaFool>>>

We've pretty much eliminated guest posting. So guest posters aren't a big problem anymore.

Jake>>>

I'd still expect to read every forum post, regardless of moderation.

I do think that the freedom to disagree is an important one, provided that the area of disagreement is on-topic for the thread and the forum in question. One of the problem I'm seeing is when threads that are nominally about one topic begin to deviate onto other topics... often becoming about personalities more than the underlying disagreement. Thinking about it, dealing with that sort of deviation is what I've been having problems with.


everyone>>>

I see at least two problems on these forums, that I'd like to think of ways to address.

The first problem is threads degenerating into "fast flamewars". To me, this is where the thread goes off topic, and starts being about users (or user behavior), rather than about the underlying topic. IMO, the portions of threads I've considered most problematic tend to be about people rather than games, software, art, etc.

To address this, I'm thinking of instituting a rule that posts about user's behavior (either forward- or backward-looking) are off-topic. If you disagree with a user's behavior, you should use the report button. (The little exclamation point on the bottom-right of the post.) A moderator will look at the posts in question and decide, in private, what will be done.

I'm also considering instituting a few remedies, including:

- To prevent flamewars from cluttering up otherwise-good threads, moderators will be able to move posts to a most-hidden sub-forum.
- Users that seem to be unable to make the distinction between productive and counter-productive posts will find themselves placed into a moderation queue, so that a moderator can make that distinction for them.


The other problem I'm seeing is a lack of "community spirit" on the forum. I'm thinking that this may be largely my fault, and that changes I made a while ago have hurt the community.

We've refactored the forums a few times over the past few years. The WIP forum was split out of the Game-Maker's corner, and the Art/Music/Writing forum was created from the art dumpage thread in the general forum. I'm starting to think that these were mistakes.

What I think has happened is that the LSF has moved to a state where people are focusing on individual threads devoted to their project or their art, rather than community threads where people discuss things together. One of the best threads I've seen has been the Art Circum-Critique thread, and that stands out as being one that everyone can participate as equals in... and that's something that seems to have been lost.

I'm really wondering if it makes sense to:

- Close Works in Progress and replace it with a monthly WIP annoucement/progress thread in Game Maker's Corner.
- Close Art/Music/Writing, moving the Art Dumpage and Circum-Critique threads into GMC.

The idea is to narrow the LSF focus to the inter-project part of visual novel development, and to start expecting intra-project discussions to be held elsewhere.