Lemma Soft Forums

I actually traced source material to make alphes-style fanart of Seihou. I hope they don't chew me out for this since it is fanart of the same series... >_<
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ ... phesBG.png

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:

LVUER wrote:According to the article, it's not about tracing or using pose from others, but rather illegal use copyrighted photograph?

Yeah, that article is about an artist getting in trouble for photosourcing pictures she didn't have the rights to. And her use of them was either the actual photo manipulated or a straight trace of the picture. Either way, it wasn't the tracing that got her in trouble, it's that she didn't have the rights to the images she traced. If you use photographs for your art, make sure they are your own pictures, or are free of any copyright, like some of the images at MorgueFile. Anything you pull up on Google Image search is likely to be copyrighted.

As for copying poses, I'd say it's a tricky subject. After all, there are a lot of iconic poses the human body can make, and artists are undoubtedly going to return to some of the same ones again and again. As long as the general pose is all you are copying, I don't find much wrong with it. However, when it is an unusual pose with a dramatic angle or special foreshortening, and another artist comes along and grabs that for their own work, it is much more dodgy. Whatever the case, the poses should only be used for reference to do your own, never traced over.

The safest way is to learn enough anatomy to know how to pose and manipulate the body as a 3D form in your head, so even when you draw "common" poses, they are unique to you, since you aren't referencing someone else. Until you get that good, use art books filled with models posing that are specifically made for artists to copy, then stylize the result.

An aside to this, if you are using textures for 3D modeling or photo-plating many concept and set design artists use photos taken straight from google images. (you can also see this with Huke's work, who uses a texture library for his work) the difference here is that whatever image your using is completely destroyed in the process of making the picture there's no way to tell where a particular texture came from.

An example of this would be Feng Zhu, he talk a lot about copyrights among professional work, and specifically what you should and shouldn't do. Specifically if you use photos in your artwork, you should take them yourself, that way you own the copyright. However if you are texturing a sidewalk, the photo is more for level of detail than actually copying the photo.

nyaatrap wrote:It's alchemy.

50c474bb.jpg

(He's fired from the company, btw)

Yes! That's what I was talking about. Thanks a lot, I couldn't figure out where to start when I couldn't remember the information.

Sapphi wrote:

RunicV wrote:There was also a case in which the artist of Incarnate, Gene Simmon's son, copied art of Kubo Tite's Bleach.

Oh that guy... It's also cute how he thought nobody would notice the Hellsing plagiarism.

In a way, I kind of feel bad for him. I would really feel like a worthless artist if the art (and plot?) of my comics were dependent on tracing other people's original work... That can't be nearly as fulfilling as putting in the effort to create something you can truly call your own.

I think a lot of that happens when a young inexperienced artist suddenly gets a dream job or a big break, and find they don't have the skill or experience to keep up with demanding deadlines and a higher quality bar. So they panic, and look for anyway possible to get the job done and hold everything together.

Take Gene Simmons kid - he probably aspired to be a comic book artist, and KISS has a lot of connections with the comic publishers and his father is a celebrity. Dad may have pulled strings to get his kid a gig, and in doing so he put the kid in a position and on a level he couldn't possibly hope to perform at. Most young people don't have the maturity or guts to turn down something like that with a polite, "I'm sorry, but I'm not skilled or experienced enough to hold this position yet. I'll keep working at it and someday when I can deliver consistent quality to you, I'll be back."

Or you have artists like Greg Land, who are experienced and skilled, but couldn't get a lot of work. One day they slip and make a bad decision to copy - maybe to make a deadline - and suddenly everyone LOVES that work. They start throwing gobs of cash at you - but they don't want your original work. They want those pictures you draw by tracing over porn models' faces. Land is quite open about his tracing, and has described his methods in detail in numerous interviews, but I can't help but think it eats away at him a little inside.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: Or you have artists like Greg Land, who are experienced and skilled, but couldn't get a lot of work. One day they slip and make a bad decision to copy - maybe to make a deadline - and suddenly everyone LOVES that work. They start throwing gobs of cash at you - but they don't want your original work. They want those pictures you draw by tracing over porn models' faces. Land is quite open about his tracing, and has described his methods in detail in numerous interviews, but I can't help but think it eats away at him a little inside.

It kinda sounds like your standard moralizing sitcom plot, doesn't it? In the end we find out that the best thing to do is "Just be yourself, no matter what anybody thinks!" Then somebody makes a lame quip and the entire cast laughs until the camera fades out. Cue the credits!

I actually struggled with this when I was around 13 and was first getting serious about comparing my drawings to the pros. At first, I had to look at pictures of anime girls whenever I wanted to draw, because I had never studied from life and had no idea how to draw people. I endeavored to draw multiple comics, and quickly got frustrated because I had no "illustration bank" in my mind to draw from. I had to keep looking at other people's work or mine wouldn't look right. And if I wanted to draw a character in a pose I couldn't find already drawn, I couldn't draw what I wanted to draw... I remember thinking in despair, "I thought I was an artist, but these people must be the real artists! They don't have to do what I'm doing, they just generate consistent images like magic!" Then I (wisely!) reassured myself that these people were adults, and figured I would magically evolve into a good artist when I became an adult. I am not a pro, but I am better now that I am older, and it wasn't magic, but it was somehow less painful than I thought it would be... Anyway, just with that small experience, I can already tell it would be hell for me to base a career around leaching off other people's talent.

MaiMai wrote:The third girl with the short black hair is Sairenji Haruna from To-Love-Ru.

ooh, thanks for the info

Lishy wrote:I actually traced source material to make alphes-style fanart of Seihou. I hope they don't chew me out for this since it is fanart of the same series... >_<
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ ... phesBG.png

I think is fine since it's a fanart for the same series, but some more strict people might think otherwise ^^; .. better stop tracing while no one get mad at you yet, ehehe

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:Or you have artists like Greg Land, who are experienced and skilled, but couldn't get a lot of work. One day they slip and make a bad decision to copy - maybe to make a deadline - and suddenly everyone LOVES that work. They start throwing gobs of cash at you - but they don't want your original work. They want those pictures you draw by tracing over porn models' faces. Land is quite open about his tracing, and has described his methods in detail in numerous interviews, but I can't help but think it eats away at him a little inside.

wow!! So he get both fans and the company support for tracing .. that's kinda amazing ...

The company fired him on the same day this image is spread all over the Internet. Everyone laughed hard on this speed of dismissal. No one defends a shameless person

nyaatrap wrote:The company fired him on the same day this image is spread all over the Internet. Everyone laughed hard on this speed of dismissal. No one defends a shameless person

I sort of feel bad about what happened to Higashiyama Shou, I liked is stuff, especially Prism.

Well, everyone passed through copy-country.
I still have my sketch books, filled with direct copies of poses and scenes, just with changed hair/clothes.
It is one way to learn, you copy and - by trying to trace the original - (hopefully) learn how to do it.

But it is sad, if there are people that just stay there. That don't evolve.
Even use copyrighted stuff.
I mean, there is so much free stuff to use.
DeviantArt is full of it, be it hand poses, face poses, poses poses (my favorite is http://senshistock.deviantart.com/ with a gigantic gallery full of all kinds of poses that is steadily growing)...

But those people are too lazy/uncreative/whatever to think of a pose or even look for it somewhere more difficult (or just fucking ask their little sister to pose for them or something like that).
Well, serves them right, when they get punishment afterwards.

But I agree on the Greg Land case.
I feel somewhat sad for him, that his previous work wasn't wanted and that he had to realize that the audience seems to love copy-art more then his true talent... :<

Taosym wrote:

nyaatrap wrote:The company fired him on the same day this image is spread all over the Internet. Everyone laughed hard on this speed of dismissal. No one defends a shameless person

I sort of feel bad about what happened to Higashiyama Shou, I liked is stuff, especially Prism.

mmm ... I think nyaatrap is talking about the person who draw muvluv girls pictures in page 1 and got fired after that.

Higgashiyama Shou deserves some punishment, but I hope it's not permanent and he can continue the manga someday T_T

EroBotan wrote:

Taosym wrote:

nyaatrap wrote:The company fired him on the same day this image is spread all over the Internet. Everyone laughed hard on this speed of dismissal. No one defends a shameless person

I sort of feel bad about what happened to Higashiyama Shou, I liked is stuff, especially Prism.

mmm ... I think nyaatrap is talking about the person who draw muvluv girls pictures in page 1 and got fired after that.

Higgashiyama Shou deserves some punishment, but I hope it's not permanent and he can continue the manga someday T_T

Yes, I know, someone mentioned Prism earlier I think, but yea. He's still drawing for Comic LO. I don't think Prism will ever continue. He was caught, however I didn't feel that Prism should be lost in this whole this. I like to think that Shou was a great writer even though he resorted to tracing.

Well, there's a difference between using references and flat out tracing, of course. But I think too much is made of it.

Let's take music. Would we call Benny Goodman a hack because he didn't write "Sweet Georgia Brown"? I guess that most of what big concert orchestras play wasn't composed by them but by people like Bach, Mozart, etc. And a lot of pop music is simply covers of older songs. Or parts of it, especially when the audio sampler became popular. Take the "amen break", for example. There are dozens of numbers using that breakbeat.

Musicians are still considered good musicians even if they use each other's compositions (how many drum patterns are there anyway?). But in art originality is expected (this is something of the last century or so, wasn't always like this). It's expected not only of high brow, groundbreaking artists but even of comic book artists who have to make a dozen or more drawings each day. And I'm not sure whether that is reasonable.

Taosym wrote:Yes, I know, someone mentioned Prism earlier I think, but yea. He's still drawing for Comic LO. I don't think Prism will ever continue. He was caught, however I didn't feel that Prism should be lost in this whole this. I like to think that Shou was a great writer even though he resorted to tracing.

yeah, I feel bad for prism T__T, that manga is good

Paul Mesken wrote:Well, there's a difference between using references and flat out tracing, of course. But I think too much is made of it.

Let's take music. Would we call Benny Goodman a hack because he didn't write "Sweet Georgia Brown"? I guess that most of what big concert orchestras play wasn't composed by them but by people like Bach, Mozart, etc. And a lot of pop music is simply covers of older songs. Or parts of it, especially when the audio sampler became popular. Take the "amen break", for example. There are dozens of numbers using that breakbeat.

Musicians are still considered good musicians even if they use each other's compositions (how many drum patterns are there anyway?). But in art originality is expected (this is something of the last century or so, wasn't always like this). It's expected not only of high brow, groundbreaking artists but even of comic book artists who have to make a dozen or more drawings each day. And I'm not sure whether that is reasonable.

if I redraw Monalisa then I'm a good artist, but if I trace Monalisa then I'm a bad artist. In my opinion, tracing is similar to lip synch while singing a cover song is similar to redrawing/copying.

The best practice of copying poses is, rotate the camera angle of references slightly and trace this imaginary figure. It boosts your drawing skills and no one notice the original. Even someone noticed, they'll rather applause your skill

Paul Mesken wrote:Well, there's a difference between using references and flat out tracing, of course. But I think too much is made of it.

Let's take music. Would we call Benny Goodman a hack because he didn't write "Sweet Georgia Brown"? I guess that most of what big concert orchestras play wasn't composed by them but by people like Bach, Mozart, etc. And a lot of pop music is simply covers of older songs. Or parts of it, especially when the audio sampler became popular. Take the "amen break", for example. There are dozens of numbers using that breakbeat.

Musicians are still considered good musicians even if they use each other's compositions (how many drum patterns are there anyway?). But in art originality is expected (this is something of the last century or so, wasn't always like this). It's expected not only of high brow, groundbreaking artists but even of comic book artists who have to make a dozen or more drawings each day. And I'm not sure whether that is reasonable.

Big difference. All those music examples are by people that either got permission from the original artist, or the artist was long dead. And the effort involved in copying music is quite different than the effort involved in copying art. To copy music, you still need to know how to read music and play an instrument well. To copy art, you just place a piece of paper over it and trace the lines. A child could do it - and most children do.

And getting permission to use another artist's work is the same as borrowing, while taking it without permission is the very definition of theft. It is VERY REASONABLE to expect ANY artist working professionally not to steal other people's work, whether they are working on "high brow" pieces for museums or drawing a comic issue. Hundreds and thousands of comic artists have drawn their 1, 2, or 3 pages a day without resulting to plagiarism - if an artist finds it too hard to do that without resorting to cheating and theft, they aren't ready to operate as a professional at that level. Nor, will they ever GET to that point, because they aren't practicing how to create original work.

So many of these plagiarists insist they were performing "homages" to the original artist when they are caught, but professional artists make it very clear when they are performing an homage, copying a panel set up and iconic character poses in an obvious way but without tracing. They then add "After [Original Artist's Name Here]" somewhere on it or nearby, to say "Hey, I took this idea from so-and-so." The biggest change this makes is that the artist is not perpetuating a fraud on his or her audience by making them think they came up with this idea or drawing on their own. Another big difference is that they might do this for a cover, or a single panel, but they WILL NOT use homages over and over again for the majority of their work.

Fraud is a big reason why plagiarism is looked down on besides it being theft. The copycat is lying to everyone about how skilled they are, garnering unearned and undeserved praise and acclaim.