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I agree...

there are no (clear) rules in writing. Good writing is simply good writing and everything seems right no matter what "rules" were broken, but bad writing is simply bad and we often wonder why author didn't see all the (obvious) mistakes...

However...

I've read too many VNs with interesting plot, lovely art and then appaling writing. Especially the dialogues that contribute to major part of many VS.

From my practice as teacher, I noticed that it rings true what my mentor taught me: "First learn all the 'rules' then break them."

Examples of fine dialogues that defy 'rules' are actually examples of masters who mastered writing. In my opinion, bad VN writing simply stems from inexperenced/unskilled writers who, mayhaps, could use an advice (and sorry if this dialogue one is a repost, I tried to find similar topic but I didn't) or could try to strive to learn the trade from masters. Reading all the writers you mentioned, reading them carefully, trying to analyze why is it that their style of dialogue works...

Trouble with writing is that it is undevalued as art because many think that as long as they are literate, they are adequate writers. Something you won't see in art or music or coding.

Maybe we could contribute by analyzing what makes some good writer's dilaogue work the way they do...

For example, dialogues in the works of noir novels are often 'cheesy' and cliched, full of pompous word-dueling, but in the context of noir novel it works fine... In this sense I do recommend reading Chandler and Spilane...

Chees
TR

tigerrenko wrote: I've read too many VNs with interesting plot, lovely art and then appaling writing. Especially the dialogues that contribute to major part of many VS.
...
Trouble with writing is that it is undevalued as art because many think that as long as they are literate, they are adequate writers. Something you won't see in art or music or coding.

You speak great truth...and it is one of the reasons I don't tend to like Kinetic Novels...because there is a lot of bad writing in the VN world. At least with a VN there are choices or gameplay to help mitigate the sub-par writing. And you are correct, I think a lot of people undervalue art and think, "anyone can do this"--when writing is an art that needs practice and study just as much as music and drawing.

tigerrenko wrote:For example, dialogues in the works of noir novels are often 'cheesy' and cliched, full of pompous word-dueling, but in the context of noir novel it works fine... In this sense I do recommend reading Chandler and Spilane...

I read a lot of pulp crime novels. I'd like to make a pulp crime VN one day...we'll see. I recommend Donald Westlake he is also classic. Though I just read a modern pulp crime by Christa Faust called Money Shot which was also very good...and it is a bit rare to read pulp crime by women. She has a newer e-book called Butch Fatale about a lesbian pulp detective I'm really looking forward to reading!

But anyway, I think that if one is going to write in a genre, it is important to really get into the genre. Read/Watch/Listen the best in that genre in order to study what makes that particular genre work...and read with a studying eye and not just an audience eye.

I'd be interested in everyone's opinions on some VNs that you feel have really really good dialogue (both commercial and free).
For us new writers, seeing examples of something that is very well done can really help


PS- i'm totally new. HI EVERYONE!

SeventhStranger wrote:I'd be interested in everyone's opinions on some VNs that you feel have really really good dialogue (both commercial and free).
For us new writers, seeing examples of something that is very well done can really help

PS- i'm totally new. HI EVERYONE!

I'll have to think about it. (Welcome!)

SeventhStranger wrote:I'd be interested in everyone's opinions on some VNs that you feel have really really good dialogue (both commercial and free).
For us new writers, seeing examples of something that is very well done can really help

It's more ADV than traditional VN, but I've always felt that the localization Capcom did for the Phoenix Wright series was really well-done. I'm not sure I'd hold it up specifically as an example of "really really good dialog," because Ace Attorney dialog is always pretty goofy--but that's intentional and by design. The game is in many ways structured as a satire of the Japanese court system. So if you're looking to write farce, Phoenix Wright is a great example to learn from. But, quite obviously, the techniques that work in a farce like Phoenix Wright may not be particularly well-suited to your grimdark fantasy epic or space opera.

I think the strength of Phoenix Wright's writing is the way that it achieves very distinct character voice, tonal consistency, and actually succeeds at being funny (which is no easy task).

I'm really tempted to dismiss the OP this as some sort of clever concern-trolling. It's nailing all the bingo-boxes. The dismissive arrogance, the very thought that someone has any real mastery over dialogue by simple virtue of being an educator -- it's almost too flawless of a ruse. Well done.

Zootower wrote:The dismissive arrogance . . .

Zootower wrote:I'm really tempted to dismiss the OP . . .

Because if someone makes a statement about a writing style that you disagree with, they must be a troll. Trolling has clearly become far more sophisticated since the Rick Roll.

Caveat Lector wrote:Because if someone makes a statement about a writing style that you disagree with, they must be a troll. Trolling has clearly become far more sophisticated since the Rick Roll.

Caveat Lector sweetie, don't feed the troll.
-- They write stuff like that specifically to get your attention. Replying only encourages them to post more of their inflammatory crap. Just ignore it.

Hi.

I was just introduced into the VNs genre few months ago (Maybe a year now. I'm not sure), but I've already seen some of them with too "real" dialogs, and they really make me wish to skip them (But the "maybe I'll loose something important" always stops me).

The "formalities" of casual talk are dense to me even when talking with other people, and seeing them in games immediately makes me loose concentration on the plot.

I can read whole pages of useless Lore and characters' backstory, but some casual chat is enough to make me loose attention.

Now, as a writer, I may have made the mistake of adding some "real" chat in my dialogs, maybe in a try to give them a "real" feeling.

Seeing these discussions helps me identify this kind of problems, and think more deeply about them, instead of just writing what it seems fit in moment.

Thanks to all. Keep discussing, I'll be reading.

Mogwai's out.

Write what you like, cut what you don't.

You have to do both. To expect that you'll write a perfect scene straight through first time is as unrealistic as expecting that you'll draw that masterpiece without erasing a single mark.

Feel free to write crap. It doesn't matter how much bad stuff you write, so long as you put in the effort to cut it out of the final work. No, it isn't easier to not write crap in the first place -- because the internal inhibition that intention generates will make it less likely that you'll write good stuff too.

Artists draw construction lines with the full intention of rubbing them out later: they'd laugh if you suggested that meant drawing those lines was a waste of time. In the same sort of way, don't worry that deleting that scene where Angelina and Pete go shopping (or whatever) meant that you were wasting your time writing it. Getting inside a character's skin, catching the rhythm of their voice, their likes, dislikes and stresses takes time: writing time.

For me, those character sheets: "likes: popcorn; hates: dogs" are sterile and uninspiring. I have to write the scene with Colin backed up against the theater railings, frantically holding his carton of popcorn up high while a Chihuahua yaps around his ankles before I understand who he is, what makes him tick, and it's only in the process of writing that scene that I'll discover that even under extreme stress the most serious swearword he'll use is "friggerty-frack." It doesn't matter that the theater-and-dog scene gets cut from the final work: the insight it gave me into Colin's character will be spread throughout the work. That scene wasn't a waste of time to write, but if it's not doing work (see below) then it shouldn't be there.

Oh yeah: swearing and slang. The important thing is to use the words that the character would use. If your tough guy, raised in the Projects drops a sheet of drywall on his foot, then fucking right he's gonna swear. If he only says "yowch!" then inquiring readers will want to know why, and as the author it's your job to tell them (and the answer had damn' well better be to to with the story rather than you.) Having said that, dialect and colorful language is like seasoning: a little goes a long way. Give your readers a taste up front and then shift towards "newspaper standard" language. You want to give the reader the flavor of your character's speech without making it hard work to read.

I'm a great fan of Professor Strunk, but it's important to remember that his advice is directed towards helping students write academic essays. Fiction is a different beast, so just because something is in "Elements of Style" doesn't make it gospel. (To be fair to Prof. Strunk, I don't believe he would want anyone to follow his rules unthinkingly.) So if you don't follow his advice you should be able to say exactly why.

As many people on this thread have commented, dialog is not real speech: it is a carefully constructed storytelling tool cunningly crafted to resemble real speech. A stick insect looks like a twig, but underneath he's a whole lot more complicated.

Just like your money, you want your scenes to work as hard as possible. Good scenes explain the world, advance the plot, set up future situations and demonstrate character all at the same time. So when you have the first wooly, rambling, misshapen, self-indulgent and thoroughly crappy first draft of your scene in front of you, now you know what you're looking for and want to keep.

The rest you cut.