(upd Jan 23, 2015) Caramel Mokaccino (Open-ish Dev)

[Deji]

Ian, Franco and Barbara studying for a test on their first year.

No progress for a long time D:
I was busy, then distracted then I lost all my files =o=;
I lost the most recent script, some random minor characters I had sketched and other stuff I never bothered to upload anywhere D: I was bummed.
Lesson learned: Now I back up everything on SVN =o=

Now, I still haven't resumed my writing, and it's mainly because of this one thing bothering me: I don't know my main character.
Penny is so... plain. I wanted to make her the good nice kind main character, but she ended up having almost no personality (or at least none that I'm aware of).
I looked at one of those surveys to help you develop your character, and as I was reading the questions, I realized I could come up with answers for most if not all the characters except for Penny. I was completely blank when it came to her! (this is a problem with my 'nice' female characters, I seriously need to fix that X_x )
So right now I'm dealing with that in my head before proceeding.

Yesterday I also got the chance to read through the translated Quartett! (I wanted to try it since I learned about it back in 2007) and I fell in love with its visuals.
Before toying with Visual Novels, I drew some comics, either as assignments for my comic classes in college or for training/fun. I ended up dropping them because I never though I was very good at them and because, for some reason, at some point I decided to try to make every panel super pretty and colored and... I ended up burned out after 2 or three pages >>; Writing-wise, the only things I ever wrote back then were scripts for my never-finished comics.
(If you feel like taking a look at my crappy old comic attempts, feel free to take a look here http://entervoid.com/archive.php?id=1155 and some unfinished stuff here http://deji.ishtera.net/vinca_web/BB)

Looking at Quartett!, it has more art than a regular Visual Novel, but less than a full comic (at least it feels like it'd be less work than drawing a comic). Also, most of the art is not 400% polished and detailed, like what fullscreen CGs on Visual novels are supposed to be, but it still works super nicely. So I thought that maybe I could try doing something like that with Caramel Mokaccino? Writing it thinking of a comic script rather than thinking of a pure Visual Novel and as soon as I'm done with a day or a scene, make a storyboard and sketch panels out?
I'm toying witht he idea right now.
I think I'll finish re-writing Day One and test it with rough sketches as a VN and as a VN-Comic Hybrid and see what works best.

Now, some "must get this out of my head NOW" sketches for the subject xD

Penny arrives at campus, before meeting Franco and Barbara

the rest is an attempt to make a sequence, so to save space, I uploaded them here
http://deji.ishtera.net/caramel/ianscenesketches/

So... yeah.

I'll try to get some stuff done sometime soon >>;

[Auro-Cyanide]

YEEEEEES! DO IT!

I am a very big supporter of trying different ways to visually tell stories and if one of your strongest assets is art, then you should use it right? I think graphic novel style artwork will work very well with visual novels. I remember the demo for lucky rabbit reflex had something like that at the beginning and it worked quite well. I makes for interesting dynamics and you can get a really nice cinematic feel when you make small changes. I haven't heard of Quartett before, but it looks really interesting. I like the way they used the panels :3 Sprites would probably still work best for long dialogue scenes so you can reuse them, but for different moments where you will usually use CGs and even just to spice up some normal scenes they would be really good. There are so many possibilities for it, from showing more of the characters to drawing attention to small details and emotions. I quite like the panels you have sketched too, I would love to see them as a story board.

Penny being empty hmmmm. Some people do that one purpose so that the player can self-insert but I guess that is not what you are after. I did get some feeling off penny from the short demo, not a great deal because it was short but something. She felt pretty normal but when she meet Franco (? is that the right guy) I felt that she was a little shy and wary of random strangers (I'm like that, not to fond of people talking to me when I don't know them). I also get the feeling that she is one of those people who is really nice but has trouble forming close bonds. When they do form though they can be quite strong. I also got the feeling that she cares deeply about those around her but that can lead her to stick her nose into other people's business and thus lead to trouble... well, that is what I get anyway. It is probably a different reading for everyone at this point.

Too bad you lost some of your stuff. I have done that numerous times and have still not learnt my lesson >_>

[Deji]

She felt pretty normal but when she meet Franco (? is that the right guy) I felt that she was a little shy and wary of random strangers (I'm like that, not to fond of people talking to me when I don't know them). I also get the feeling that she is one of those people who is really nice but has trouble forming close bonds. When they do form though they can be quite strong. I also got the feeling that she cares deeply about those around her but that can lead her to stick her nose into other people's business and thus lead to trouble... well, that is what I get anyway. It is probably a different reading for everyone at this point.

I'm wary of random strangers myself, so I thought that if a random guy started to talk to her out of the blue and asking her name and stuff, she'd get uncomfortable xD I made her warm up to him pretty quickly, though, not sure if that's a good thing or not ^^;
The rest of the feelings you got from her, were not something I put there consciously xD; But she could be a bit like that, yes. I know Annie is a bit like that herself, (tries to be friendly, but doesn't really bond with people and she gets lonely).
I'm still trying to find a 'template' or a default 'feeling' from her >>;
People around me are not exactly the nice and kind type to use them as models either D: Except maybe one, that actually is better for reference for Barbara and her overachieving tendencies than for Penny.
I'm trying to give her some flaws like the rest of the characters, so she gets room for character development and growth, but since she's so plain, I can't think of any >>;
Being nosey? Caring about other people's problems a lot but neglecting herself? (that would clash with her motivation to live on her own and getting a job to achieve that... unless she just wants to move in to avoid giving troubles to the Salviati family instead of just wanting a place for herself, and she gets the job just to help Enzo lacking staff...?)

I'm also starting to question why would she want to live all by herself instead of just rent a shared place with other people like regular students do. I don't know why I didn't question it before >>; I mean, she's moving away from home to a homely place, why would she want to be alone at a strange place at all? Would she be okay sleeping in that place alone every night and waking up to greet nobody every morning? Would her parents and the Salviati's really approve of her being all by herself so easily? (I know Nico wouldn't, he'd be worried sick).
I could put a room-mate in there to solve all that, but I'm worried It'd make things grow even bigger than they are now.

*ponders*
I can't put any of the main characters there... I think. Ian would be one of the obvious choice, since he lives alone in a small apt., but I like him being the neighbor that bargains in way-too-often and Penny would probably be wary to share a place with a guy she just met. Barbara would be another obvious choice, but that would screw the part where she runs away from home and stays at Penny's place when she can't deal with her situation anymore. The rest are fine where they are living right now, so the only choice would be an extra character.
I could use Linda (waitress from the Caramel, shares a couple of shifts with Penny).
I'll have to think about it...

[DaFool]

If there's somebody going to attempt FFD (Floating Frame Director) style, I'm glad it's gonna be you.

I was going to attempt it, but now with Quartett's English release I expect many attempted clones to come out, and so I decided to do something totally different.

Comic style is still ridiculously expensive though (from the perspective of a non-artist).

[Deji]

I was going to attempt it, but now with Quartett's English release I expect many attempted clones to come out, and so I decided to do something totally different.

Comic style is still ridiculously expensive though (from the perspective of a non-artist).

Yeah, it's bound to happen ^^;

I don't think something like Quartett! would be *too* expensive. I mean, it's not like it is a VN comprised by only Event CGs, but of a bunch of smaller and not-so-polished frames, that when you look at them closely, are pretty simple in composition and execution. I bet you can get plenty of images like that for the price of a regular polished full screen event CG, and you can recycle some face close-up frames several times.

[Auro-Cyanide]

It is good to wary of random strangers *nod* I think it is okay for her to warm up to the interaction though because if I was in her position and I was in a new place just starting uni I would consciously bite the bullet and try to be friendly with people. You don't get to make friends by being wary of them. I think because the game is about getting close to people and solving their problems I got the feeling at some point people will get angry at Penny for trying to get involved. You know how people get all defensive and think it is not the other person's business. You either have to back off or deal with them being angry with you and still try to help them. *I could imagine Penny trying to find out why Nico is upset and him just getting more upset because she doesn't get it XD so cute*

As for flaws, she could be too nice and thus end up as a bit of a doormat. She could end up neglecting herself for the sake of others like you said (or neglecting the issue of her and Nico for the sake of others). Maybe she is a little naive about 'real' life. Maybe she is one of those people that tends to bottle up their own feelings because they don't want to inconvenience others. Nice people usually don't appear to have flaws to other people (that is why they seem so nice) but they usually have a lot of flaws on the inside that relate to themselves. Maybe at some point she learn to stand up for herself or vent a little. If you were in Penny's shoes, who would you feel like?

I would say wanting to live by herself would be one of her character traits/flaws. She is so concerned about being a burden to other people she is willing to make her life a whole lot harder without seeing that the people didn't see her as a burden in the first place. She is being too nice. You can make a pretty solid argument for her to move out "I want to be independent, it is closer to uni, I need my own space, I want to try a new experience". That kind of think. I have no doubt that the Salviati family would be very worried and would make sure it was clear she could return any time, but at the end of the day Penny is old enough to make her own decisions. Nico would probably throw a tantrum though. Maybe it would be a good excuse for him to check up on her I also don't think it is necessary to have a room mate. I think that is a good place to show more of Penny's personality. She would probably be lonely all by herself but she has brought it upon herself and she is too nice to complain about it. It would make her enjoy her time with other people more and remember how good life was to live with a family, which would push her to form bonds. Or you could have a room mate, it really is your choice. Either way would make logical sense to me.

I think the frames provide a versatility that full CGs don't. I have been contemplating it's use for action sequences because it allows you to show multiple actions on the same and thus reduce the shock of changing scenes rapidly. Plus, like you said, there is an opportunity to lessen the detail and work and expand on the visuals. Some frames might not even use backgrounds. It also puts more strength in the visuals and allows for more more balance between what is written and what is shown. So yeah, good opportunity.

[Deji]

I think because the game is about getting close to people and solving their problems I got the feeling at some point people will get angry at Penny for trying to get involved. You know how people get all defensive and think it is not the other person's business. You either have to back off or deal with them being angry with you and still try to help them. *I could imagine Penny trying to find out why Nico is upset and him just getting more upset because she doesn't get it XD so cute*

Yes, they do get defensive and upset she gets too involved and tell her to back off xD I guess she's stubborn as well, as she doesn't give up on them.

I thought having a roommate could give space for interesting interactions, but now that I've read your point of view, I can actually imagine Penny feeling lonely, appreciating more her family and the Salviatis and her newfound friends. I can picture her at night, drinking a mug of coffee, looking at her empty living room or her bedroom and remembering her house or the Salviatis place, much more lively, and feeling sad, but convincing herself this is the best, that she has too grow up and all that. In the beginning I wanted to make her mature enough to not have any issues with that at all, but giving her insecurities about it, I think it'd be a good thing. Also the whole thing of being nice as a flaw in itself could actually work.

Thanks for bouncing ideas with me, I really appreciate it ^____________^

[Starling]

Ah~ I love the way that the hybrid plays out in all the sketches you posted, it seems to fit the game and your style very well. It also lets you tell the story with pictures without having to worry constantly about how to put the frames and how to pace it on one page and so many other things that makes comic drawing harder... This seems a lot more flowing.

I also agree with pretty much all the ideas Auro-Cyanide gave you for Penny. I am the designated "nice girl" among my friends. The first thing that anyone ever says to describe me is "sweet" and most of those things that were mentioned as faults that Penny would have are issues I have. I never, ever tell people when something has upset me, because I don't want to bother them and I always want to help people and always want to be of use to them that I get walked all over, especially when I was younger and more naive. I'd do things for them but it would never get returned and I would just bottle it all up until suddenly I would explode which no one would expect and they would think there was something wrong. So maybe you could do something like that?

I also always convince myself in my head that I shouldn't be mad or lonely or anything because of *lists a bunch of reasons* so it's very realistic I think for Penny to be unhappy living alone but never ever to let it on and in fact try and convince herself that it's not true. Maybe learning to ask for help and learning that it's OKAY to bother people from time to time could be a way she could grow up?

[Deji]

@Starling: Oh, I see! Thank you very much for the input ! I really have no 'nice girl' amongst my close friends or relatives (seriously >>; ), so I was having a hard time figuring things out ^^;
This is clashing a bit with what I had in mind for Annie, but I think I can focus on other aspects of her personality that are not so simmilar with Penny's.


BTW, I'm glad you all like the panels idea C:
Right now, I'm going through what I manage to recover from the script and re-envisioning it in panels. So far it seems like a lot of work! But i'm sure I can cut the number of panels down as I revise the script later on, just like I did with my comic attempts back then!

[Riviera]

I heard about the Quartett translation too, and I really, really need to look into it. The concept you're describing sounds very interesting, and I can't remember ever seeing it in a VN before. The only close comparison I can think of is Hotel Dusk/Last Window and they're not very close.

I like your example! Maybe it's because I've always had a special spot in my heart for comics and their particular art style, but I like it a lot. They just seem so much more dynamic than most pictures... maybe it's the way the boxes are set up around the character? I can't think of a way to describe it.

The first thing that anyone ever says to describe me is "sweet" and most of those things that were mentioned as faults that Penny would have are issues I have. I never, ever tell people when something has upset me, because I don't want to bother them and I always want to help people and always want to be of use to them that I get walked all over, especially when I was younger and more naive. I'd do things for them but it would never get returned and I would just bottle it all up until suddenly I would explode which no one would expect and they would think there was something wrong. So maybe you could do something like that?

I also always convince myself in my head that I shouldn't be mad or lonely or anything because of *lists a bunch of reasons* so it's very realistic I think for Penny to be unhappy living alone but never ever to let it on and in fact try and convince herself that it's not true. Maybe learning to ask for help and learning that it's OKAY to bother people from time to time could be a way she could grow up?

God, that sounds so much like me as well. You have my sympathy as a fellow "nice person."

So often I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of but I can't seem to find it in me to say anything. Fail!

*sigh*

Anyway... some motivations for a "nice girl": Does she have a lot of insecurity or low self esteem? Is it possible that some of her niceness is to compensate for things?

In both of these cases, even though she may be a very nice person on her own, she's also wearing a bit of a mask to sugarcoat. She may not need it, but for whatever reason she thinks she does. The self-acceptance that Starling mentioned could come in here too as a character growth indicator.

Low Self Esteem: Maybe she feels that she's not good at making friends on her own merits, so she makes special efforts to make and then keep them. "I'm not very pretty or very interesting, but if I can help people, surely they'll be my friend."

Guilt: She happens to lose her temper one day, then feels bad about it later, so she makes a special effort to be nice to everyone whether they were involved or not. Maybe no one even noticed her bout of temper, but all that really matters to her is that it happened. "I keep screwing up.. it's like my karma meter is a seesaw. If I keep doing good things, maybe I can make up for the times I screw up? Maybe smiling at that lonely girl will make up for the time I slapped that jerk in PE?"

EDIT: Haha, walked off and started doing something else and thought of two three more.

The Golden Rule: Maybe she'd like some of these things to be done for her, so she does them for others. This could be turned around to be selfish if you'd like. "I wish one of my friends would make lunch for me... so I'll make lunch for them." "I am there for my sibling because I want them to be there for me."

Empathizer: Maybe she got picked on a lot as a kid or just had a rough time at some point in her life. So she goes out of her way to be kind to others, especially the outcasts and underdogs. "I know that things can be hard. Life can feel like falling into a deep pit. But if you reach down inside of yourself, you can find the strength to climb back out."

"The Great Equalizer": That's my nickname for it anyway. Basically a very strong sense of justice and fairness mixed with generosity. She sees people doing good things, or just doing everyday normal things, and feels that they should be thanked for it, but they never are. So she goes and thanks them. "My teacher gives up her entire weekend to grade our major tests. This is her job, but no one ever seems to notice. I'm going to bake some cupcakes and leave them in the staff room as thanks."

Very sorry for the humongous walls of text. I love writing and making up characters so it thrills me to bits to have even a tiny hand in the process.

[Deji]

Thanks for more input! yay!

You know, when I read all that, I keep thinking it's closer to the image I have of Annie rather than the image I have of Penny xD;
Especially

Low Self Esteem: Maybe she feels that she's not good at making friends on her own merits, so she makes special efforts to make and then keep them. "I'm not very pretty or very interesting, but if I can help people, surely they'll be my friend."

and

The Golden Rule: Maybe she'd like some of these things to be done for her, so she does them for others. This could be turned around to be selfish if you'd like. "I wish one of my friends would make lunch for me... so I'll make lunch for them." "I am there for my sibling because I want them to be there for me."

... except Annie doesn't go out of her way to help people, unlike Penny.

I don't think Penny has a motivation for being nice, she just is that way sincerely ^^;
She probably has a very positive attitude and thinks she should be mature and all, so she shoves her problems to the side and focuses in more important matters, like studies or work, or the problems of the people she cares about.

*ponders*
Maybe she tries too hard to be positive and mature?
How about she has/had some sort of role model (like a teacher, or her mom, or something like that) that was nice and selfless and she decided to be that way herself, but she ended up forgetting about herself or neglecting herself in her pursue?
Probably she doesn't even give herself much space to consider her own problems and/or feelings, even when they're not serious issues.
I'm thinking that this could be addressed on the regular routes, but as she's too busy worrying about the issues of her friends, she doesn't give it as much attention as she should (she recognizes there is a problem, but she doesn't do much about it, still putting in first place the problem of the friend at hand), and maybe it could be a major focal point on Nico's route, where he pretty much forces her to stop for a second and think about herself and take care of herself before taking care of others...

Again, thanks a lot for the input <3
I'm not very good at this, so every idea and every discussion that triggers my imagination to keep creating this story helps a ton! C:

[Auro-Cyanide]

I'm thinking that this could be addressed on the regular routes, but as she's too busy worrying about the issues of her friends, she doesn't give it as much attention as she should (she recognizes there is a problem, but she doesn't do much about it, still putting in first place the problem of the friend at hand), and maybe it could be a major focal point on Nico's route, where he pretty much forces her to stop for a second and think about herself and take care of herself before taking care of others...

Aww, so cute. I think this is good. She has been so busy helping others that when Nico helps her it comes as a bit a shock. It shows a great deal of maturity for Nico to step up and say it (him growing up?) and show Penny that she might sometimes need some help. It also strengthens the bond between the two. I think it is a really interesting aspect that while chasing Nico, Nico is chasing Penny. You try and fix his problem and he ends up saving you. That is pretty cool

Some of those things do sound like Annie. Though there is nothing that says you can't have two nice characters. People often have similar characteristics that either lead to people feeling connected to them or fighting with them. Plus there are different types of nice. I am considered a nice person, but I'm not like Penny. In fact, being nice is kind of a lie. I tend to be really nice, especially around people I am unfamiliar with, because it is easy. You don't rock the boat, people like you, no drama. However my real personality is more fiery and I have a very strong point of view. I am not afraid to say what I think around my close friends. I am fiercely loyal to those I consider close to me. But if you didn't know me I would just seem to be polite, soft and smiley. I am being a bit manipulative I suppose ^^"

It seems to me that Penny is generally a nice person because she wants to help, but Annie is slightly more selfish. She is nice so that she can gain from it. It probably isn't directly on purpose but she is probably thinking "I really want to be nice so that I can make friends" so that she can feel good about having friends. Most people have this self-serving attitude. Even when we so something that appears self-less, such as giving up your seat, you are rewarded with a feel-good feeling. I think Penny might have a simpler attitude, maybe she helps people because she feels the problems should be solved and people should be happy. She feels this a natural state of affairs... I think I may be thinking about this too much >_>

Anyway, I sure you will be fine. The characters are already really interesting and I am really looking forward to the story.

[Starling]

Character developing is one of my favourite things to do(just ask Aleema XD), so I'm glad to help any way I can.

Penny seems to me from what you've liked and not liked to be someone who is is positive and nice without thinking about it at first. Which kind of doesn't lend it's self well to there being a role model. Following a role model kind of implies that she isn't naturally a nice person. Instead hmm I can't remember if this was mentioned anywhere, but does Penny have any siblings? If she has younger siblings it could be that she's also really used to taking care of people and being called the "responsible one" It could be that she is naturally a positive, nice, mature and responsible person but because of this fact, everyone ALWAYS ALWAYS expects her to be like that all the time. She'd really never be allowed to have any negative traits *also knows this from experience* so maybe a character makes her angry and some small true feelings or pet peeve could come out?

Or she could also break down from exhaustion over never letting herself relax because she unconsciously tries to always be that perfect person.

And since she's nosy she could have a thought process of that everyone needs someone to talk to, to bottle it in is just bad, yet she's hypocritical in the fact that she doesn't do so for herself.

[Deji]

@Auro:
I guess most people put up a 'nice' mask to deal with other people that are not close to. I'm like that, haha, and I have a hard time being nice when I'm with people that know me better xD; (I tend to be too blunt with them to the point of being mean >>; ).
And yes, like you said Penny is nice by default ('everybody should be happy'), while Annie has two layers: nice, friendly and chatty on the surface, and selfish and insecure beneath it (though not as bad as it sounds xD).

@Starling:
Oh, I see, the role model would work against all that.
Penny doesn't have any siblings, as far as I know. I don't remember if I ever thought a reason behind that, or I just defaulted her as only child (I'm an only child myself, so I default my characters to have no siblings, unless I specifically say they have them ^^; ).
In lack of younger siblings, I think that maybe her parents could just have had raised her like that?
You know, busy but loving parents that can't be around that much, so they count on their kid to deal with things.

*ponders*
Maybe it's not like she wasn't allowed to have bad traits, but she didn't allow herself to have them, so she could fulfill her duties and make her parents proud and happy, since they spent so little time together, she just wanted all to be happy together.
Probably with her classmates and friends, she also behaved like that, trying to help them so they would be worry-less and they could spend time together being happy, without being bothered with problems?
And in the process, she forgot to have that healthy does of selfishness, to the point of not knowing how to deal with problems or feelings that mattered only to herself.

I'm not sure about how the other characters in the story see this. I know Nico has probably seen it since forever, but the rest of the characters may be too worried about their own issues and Penny so worried about helping them and managing her life well, that they don't get to see it much... this makes me worried, for the future of their relationship on their romantic endings, lol.

[Tsundere Lightning]

Good to see another person coming back to their worthy projects, Deji. I'm watching this with great interest. If I think of anything to suggest, I'll let you know.

I really do think the way you're planning the timeline is very, very smart and will save you a lot of wasted time.