Why Why Why ?!!!

[Jake]

To insinuate that what my work on Novelty and my work as a freelance artist are in any way related is patently wrong.

I seem to recall getting to your personal site from a link on the Novelty forum or this one (where you've mostly talked about Novelty); I know I'd seen it a long time ago and I can't think of any other way I'd have reached it, since I doubt I've gone looking before. At the very least, you've personally posted both discussion about the development of Novelty on this very forum and also hardcore pornography.

But this is beside the point, since as a kid you have to deliberately go looking to find anything 'bad' in relation to Ren'Py as well, you can't just visit the forum (unless you lie about your age); to get to any of your porn from the Novelty site you also have to deliberately go looking. And they are related, because they're both created by you.

I'm just saying that it seems to me, with my understanding of the fragile American allergy to sex, that a guy is probably less likely to get in trouble for recommending an engine which is written by a guy who doesn't maintain any such sites and whose generic engine gets used by some other people to write smut than for recommending an engine which is written by a guy who also creates smut himself. If some psychotic 'soccer-mom' got the idea to try and attack this guy, there'd be more, and more-directly-tied ammunition in the case of Novelty. There's no need for personal attacks.

(And assuming you've fixed that textbox problem, I'd have thought Novelty would be just as good as Ren'Py for use by kids.)

[Sin]

First of all, there is no porn on the Novelty web site. If someone wanted to go look for it they'd have to look for a very long time.

Second, this forum has a forum for game development and one for discussions on hentai. For someone to post in both doesn't necessarily mean anything. See, some people are able to separate work from play, hence my remark on 'professionalism'.

Third, what you're talking about is something that happened at least two years ago, before Novelty had even been released. So the relation gets even worse.

Fourth, whatever you think about me has nothing to do with Novelty. You don't know me and you are not in a position to make these claims. I told you that you were wrong, because you are. I have nothing to gain from mixing hentai with Novelty so why would I?

You may had not realize it yourself, but when you say something like:

If someone is worried about the things associated with Ren'Py because kids might poke around associated sites and find stuff their parents don't want them to see, and they might lose their job, Novelty is a worse proposition; if these hypothetical kids poke around on Sin's sites the teacher's more likely to get executed!

... then I take that very personally and I'd like for you to apologize.

At the very least I'd like you to not talk about things you don't know anything about. It's an ugly trait. Yet there seems to be at least one on every forum.

[Ren]

It would be nice if discussions could take place without having the people involved insulting others and being this abrasive.

The original poster seemed to be extremely worried (and with good reason, knowing how some parents behave) that there would be *any* connection at all to questionable content and Jake's comment seemed to be rather facetious, I'd be more worried about the content of your blog than your drawings.

I didn't see him saying that you posted Hentai on your Novelty site, nor starting a crusade against you, so it would be advisable for you to discuss in a more calm manner, rather than calling people names and then demanding apologies.

[Jake]

First of all, there is no porn on the Novelty web site. If someone wanted to go look for it they'd have to look for a very long time.

Let's face it - if someone is going to look for anything on Novelty outside of the Novelty website, they're going to be looking a very long time; you chose a regular English word for your engine title, so it's comparatively pretty hard to do web searches for related materials.

Fourth, whatever you think about me has nothing to do with Novelty. You don't know me and you are not in a position to make these claims. I told you that you were wrong, because you are.

Wait, you're not the same Sin who draws hardcore pornography? All I said was - and you quote it yourself - "if these hypothetical kids poke around on Sin's sites". Do you or do you not have websites containing hardcore pornography? The answer is patently "yes, you do".

So quit accusing me of lying. You're getting very defensive and imagining things, reading into my words imagined claims I didn't make, and then having the gall to call me "ugly", "an idiot" and suggest that I have some kind of vendetta against you.

When did I say I had anything against you? When did I say porn was bad? When did I say you were deliberately mixing porn with Novelty? It's all in your head. Maybe you don't like me, but it doesn't mean I necessarily have anything against you.

... then I take that very personally and I'd like for you to apologize.

Point me to a single thing that I've actually said - not something from your imagination - that is actually untrue, and I'll apologise. Unreservedly. Until then, I'm feeling pretty insulted myself.



Honestly, if I wanted to damage you or Novelty's reputation, I would be making far more absolute statements including the name of your VN engine, your name, the name of your other site and the kind of things you post on it. The kind of thing google searches might pick up and include in their summaries, for example. But I don't want to do anything of the sort, so I'm specifically avoiding that kind of statement. I'm still doing it, despite your unwarranted vitriol, and I'll keep doing it, because I'm simply not that petty. I was just pointing out the irrationality of suggesting Ren'Py wasn't potentially a good tool for kids because it was possible to make a tenuous link between Ren'Py and hentai.

There's already at least one person on this forum who maintains two separate accounts - one for professional business, one for porn - for that very reason; it's not difficult and it's well within your intelligence to do so, because I know you're a smart guy. I seem to recall PyTom deliberately hid behind his pseudonum to separate Ren'Py itself from his career, for a while. If you cared so much to have your professional reputation separated from porn, you would have done the same. You cocked up, stop getting upset at me for it. If you're so worried about it, you're only making it worse by arguing the point because it's going to draw more attention to it.

[Sin]

Jake said that to find porn on the Novelty site you'd have to look for it, making a comparison with this site. Since there is no porn on my site what-so-ever, I think the analogy fails.

Jake's point in his first post was that just because I keep a mature blog then Novelty is somehow tainted by me. Like I'm rated M for mature. I know that's not what he said word by word, but that was his point, right? Naturally I should have a right to defend myself if I believe someone has put me and my work in a bad light. Calling someone an idiot in the process is beside the point. I think his post was pretty idiotic, given the circumstances.

There is no relationship between my various blogs and the Novelty project. I have erased any such connections and I'm actively maintaining that separation. Novelty is a tool for people of all ages and it is safe to recommend to anyone who'd like to try it.

The only real connection would be me, sure, but I'd like it if people gave me a little more credit. Like I said, I'm deliberately keeping things very separate. Additionally, you could make the argument that my work as a freelance artist pays for the development of Novelty.

I'd like Jake to apologize, or at least acknowledge that he was out of line, but this is the internet so that would be a first.

PS. Jake wrote the above post before I could submit mine, but reading it I see he's not getting the point and is misunderstanding me just as much as he claims I do.

[Sin]

Never mind. I need to address these things you're saying.

Let's face it - if someone is going to look for anything on Novelty outside of the Novelty website, they're going to be looking a very long time; you chose a regular English word for your engine title, so it's comparatively pretty hard to do web searches for related materials.

Are you blaming me for the accuracy of search engines? That point is moot. Also I was referring to the actual Novelty web site, not the entire internet.

Wait, you're not the same Sin who draws hardcore pornography? All I said was - and you quote it yourself - "if these hypothetical kids poke around on Sin's sites".

Are these kids hypothetically looking for a visual novel engine or porn? In either case they won't find a link from one to the other.

So quit accusing me of lying.

I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying you're wrong. There's a difference.

... then I take that very personally and I'd like for you to apologize.

Point me to a single thing that I've actually said - not something from your imagination - that is actually untrue, and I'll apologise. Unreservedly. Until then, I'm feeling pretty insulted myself.

What are you talking about? I pasted the exact quote that offended me.

Let me spell it out for you where you are wrong: There is no connection between my work as a developer and as a freelance artist. You claim that the connection is myself. I'm telling you that's irrelevant.

This is not about Novelty vs. Ren'py. Someone in this thread made the recommendation of Novelty to the teacher, but you had to tear that down because you believe I'm doing bad things on the side. In reality however, those things are entirely separate and the teacher can be rest assured there is no pornography in relation to Novelty.

[JinzouTamashii]

I thought Novelty's GUI was very imaginative. If I hadn't already used Ren'Py for a year, I would use it. It's very intuitive looking. By the way, what is the textbox problem?

[Sin]

I think he's referring to the fact that users must build their own GUI in Novelty, which is a hard thing to ask from a first-time user. But it's a non-issue since that's no longer the case.

I don't mind if people use Ren'py over Novelty. They're both very different tools and appeals to different people. I only speak up when I believe Novelty is being misrepresented.

[Jake]

Jake said that to find porn on the Novelty site you'd have to look for it, making a comparison with this site. Since there is no porn on my site what-so-ever, I think the analogy fails.

If you read what I actually wrote, I said "Sin's sites". You'll note the plural, incidcating that I am not just talking about the Novelty site. Your entire argument against what I said it predicated on the idea that I'm talking specifically about the Novelty site, but that's patently not what I meant.


I said what I said because it was in response to the notion that Ren'Py was somehow tainted by being associated with pornography and Novelty wasn't. We're not talking about rational, normal human beings; we're talking about the kind of crazy psychos who think porn is dirty and it's somehow evil to expose kids to the idea that people sometimes have sex. These people won't care a jot whether or not you link to porn directly from the Novelty site, there is a link. It's findable - I found it, others have found it - you didn't make a point of even trying to hide it until very recently.

In fact, you more or less admit this yourself:

I have erased any such connections

Now, I'm pretty sure I saw mention of Novelty development progress on the same site of yours as pictures that your average schoolteacher would be wise to stay shy of as recently as a couple of months ago; I remember thinking at the same time that it was interesting you weren't separating them more than that, especially since you're registered under a different name on the Novelty forums. So I apologise for not going off and re-checking every single site I know you have anything to do with just to make sure you hadn't secretly erased the connections since I last saw them before making statements based on my memory of apparent fact... but that's all I'm going to apologise for.

Are these kids hypothetically looking for a visual novel engine or porn?

It's pretty obvious that kids only looking for VN-engine advice aren't going to accidentally stumble upon porn in either case, so you really don't need to ask that question.

I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying you're wrong. There's a difference.

You're saying that I'm talking about things I don't know anything about, on purpose. You strongly insinuated that I was doing it because I had something against you. These two things mean you're effectively calling me a liar; you're saying that I'm making things up to hurt you. Which is basically slander.

What are you talking about? I pasted the exact quote that offended me.

You posted the quote that offended you, but it doesn't contain any statements which aren't factual. Well, with the exception that I exaggerated the reaction for comedic effect - I don't honestly think anyone [in the US] would literally be executed for showing kids that kind of stuff.

What I said was that the things you post on your sites - not the Novelty one, just your sites in general - are just as bad, if not worse, than the things you see in the LHH forum here. This is, to the best of my knowledge, a true statement.

The disconnect is that I had no idea you'd gone back since the last time I'd seen those sites and removed the connections between the porn and the engine that I remember seeing; I don't check your sites every day and definitely don't go back through the archives comparing them to my memory of the site to see what's changed.

The mature response to that disconnect would have been to PM me, point out that you've deliberately severed those connections and ask me to amend my post in case anyone got the wrong idea; I would have had no reason not to comply. Instead, you chose to just wildly accuse me in public of either being stupid or intentionally damaging your engine's reputation (or both!).

I think he's referring to the fact that users must build their own GUI in Novelty, which is a hard thing to ask from a first-time user. But it's a non-issue since that's no longer the case.

Yes. When I last used Novelty, the user had to set up their own text box and manually hook it up as the place that dialogue comes out. It wasn't straightforward or intuitive, and I wouldn't have recommended the software to anyone else based on that alone. If it's been changed and users no longer have to do that, then undoubtedly Novelty is a better piece of software as a result.








And seriously, if you want to distance the porn from Novelty, then if I were you I would go through your posts to the art forums and remove the porn, maybe ask for your account to be re-named, then if you still want it shown on this site, you can start a second account to post that kind of thing. Or maybe just remove any opsts of yours that refer to novelty. And since this kind of conversation is making reference to things you apparently want to hide, I'd be happy for PyTom or Lemma to delete everything from your first complaint and my replies onwards - just stop accusing me of things I didn't do. If you ask politely, I'll even re-word the post you took offence to, because whatever you may believe, I've not at any point been trying to damage your reputation.

[Sin]

Deleting posts doesn't serve anyone. I'd prefer it the discussion was left intact so people could make up their own minds on the issue at hand.

If you read what I actually wrote, I said "Sin's sites". You'll note the plural, incidcating that I am not just talking about the Novelty site. Your entire argument against what I said it predicated on the idea that I'm talking specifically about the Novelty site, but that's patently not what I meant.

See, this is my point. What does my other sites has to do with Novelty? Why would you even bring them up? Like I said, there are no connections. The ones that were have been erased and there is no reason to not recommend Novelty to a teacher and his students. Yet you claimed there were. Even if you thought the posts were still available (read: googl'able) I've just told you five times that they're not. Why can't you just take my word for it?

It's highly unfeasible that someone looking for information about Novelty would randomly stumble upon my totally unrelated blog. So there is no issue. That's where you were wrong and that's where I corrected you. Maybe you have reasons to be suspicious of me because of the content of that blog, but I'm right here. Here it comes straight out of the horse's mouth: Don't worry about it.

Are we on the same page here?

[Jake]

Even if you thought the posts were still available (read: googl'able) I've just told you five times that they're not. Why can't you just take my word for it?

Yes, I thought the posts were still available when I wrote it, because I'm fairly sure they'd been there pretty recently and I didn't see any reason to suspect they'd have been removed. I am taking your word for it that they're not any longer, I've not gone to check.

But I'm honestly not sure what you're confused about - in case it needs clearing up, I wrote the post that you objected to before you objected to it. As I said before, I didn't go and double-check all of your sites in case you'd wiped them clean, so I didn't know you'd had a change of heart and deleted the connections, so I couldn't have taken your word for it when I wrote that first post.

And as I said before - if you'd just politely pointed out that I'd not noticed you'd removed the links, and asked me to correct my original post, I'd have been happy to. You're the one who's decided to accuse me of all kinds of things and blow this up into a big fuss, and I really don't understand why.



And honestly:

Maybe you have reasons to be suspicious of me because of the content of that blog

What? Why would I have reasons to be suspicious of you? Do you have another blog somewhere that I've not seen upon which you publically plot my death, or something?! The only reason I'd have to be suspicious of you is that you've been agressively acting overly defensive the whole time you've been posting in this thread, as if you had something you wanted to hide. I presumed it was because you wanted to avoid people looking for Novelty info finding out about your porn drawings, which is why I suggested asking for the posts to be deleted.

[Sin]

You were the one emphasizing the fact that I have a mature blog, which lead me to believe that it was something you had a problem with. I couldn't see any other reason for you to repeatedly bring up the "hardcore pornography" otherwise. Hence I said that maybe there were natural reasons to be "suspicious" of me because of the content on my blog. I never said you were. When people use words like "maybe" they're usually just stating a possibility. Don't bury yourself in semantics.

All I've said so far has been about your first post, the one I quoted and the one that was an ad hominid attack on Novelty. Why do I have to spend my entire day explaining to you why that post offended me? It's right there in black and white in my responses.

Beyond that, you just said you could had gone back and changed the posts. That's fine. You don't need to do that. But if you can agree to that then maybe you could also agree that you shouldn't had written it in the first place, and possibly avoiding coming off as a jerk? I don't know you. You could be a great guy, but that post sure made you sound like one. You might not had intended it that way, but guess what, you have to answer to things you say.

Again: The FIRST post that I quoted. The one where Novelty is a worse proposition and the teacher would get executed for dealing with me and my web sites.

[JinzouTamashii]

Please stop ... this bothers me.

[Jake]

You were the one emphasizing the fact that I have a mature blog, which lead me to believe that it was something you had a problem with.

Did you actually read any of the thread other than my post, or did you only take in the bits you could interpret as insults? The context was Ren'Py being associated with pornography, why do you think I mentioned it, genius?

was an ad hominid attack on Novelty.

Lie!

But if you can agree to that then maybe you could also agree that you shouldn't had written it in the first place

I see you're continuing your only-read-the-bits-you-want-to habit. I said that had I realised you had gone back and removed links between your sites when I first wrote it, which I hadn't, because I don't obsessively check your sites for changes, then I wouldn't have written it in the first place.

I also said that if you had been willing to be polite about it then I would be happy to go back and correct it, but instead you launched into this immature tirade, which you show no signs of relenting from. It's obviously not worth my time trying to communicate with you, since you continue to just accuse me of things which I quite clearly didn't do and refuse to even read my posts properly. So forget it. There's no chance of you getting any more of an apology out of me than you've already had, because all you're doing is convincing me you're a dick. There's no point continuing this discussion.

[you're both being stupid]

When I look at Ren'Py, I see a relatively safe environment that at least makes an attempt at sectioning off hentai and non-hentai works.
When I look at Novelty's site, the first thing I see is the drawing of a young girl with her panties showing. Not exactly "all ages" as Sin implied.


Jake made a funny comment that was meant more in humor. Sin is being overly defensive about the fact that he may/may not have dirty things associated with his person and/or projects, and is embarrassed that he didn't do more to prevent linking Novelty to said dirty things.

Complaining will get you no where. If you think Jake is an asshole, then whatever. He's obviously not going to apologize because he believes that he was not in the wrong. Deal with it. Quit being defensive and do something about it, this way the future Jakes of the internet cannot point out what went wrong.