Flight of Twilight

[monele]

I'm not *sure* it'll be bishoujo but it's a visual novel.

http://www.flightoftwilight.com/

Lead artist being toi-chan who has a Deviant Art account (http://toi-chan.deviantart.com/). Don't know much about the rest ^^;.

[DaFool]

Hmmm, it's slightly intimidating because it seems some are quite well-known hard-hitters (i.e. real art students or beyond) who are getting into the field.

But its good for the OEL Visual Novel genre.

I find it funny how they mention making a game more than the standard one-hour 'demo length', in 7 months at that. Is it just me or did that seem like they were motivated after seeing Ori Ochi Onoe? Or at the very least, after seeing the Blade Engine announcement?

So if their aim is near professional-level due to the size and scope of their team (and the fact that they aim for at least a multi-hour story), and the fact that they are customizing an engine of their own specifically for their game, then their direct artistic competitors are the likes of Shira-Oka and Hirameki's American project (if it does indeed exist). Come to think of it, I am unaware of any larger-scale Japanese doujin visual novel circles at all other than TYPE-MOON, but I am aware of at least 4 big western groups.

What can smaller groups here like ATP projects do---methinks is like the Stage-Nana of the West. If it can maximize the emotional experience then aiming for mastery of the 1.5-2 hour runtime is a reachable goal.

As for one-person experimenters such as myself...I sort of am evaluating my niche with regards with the overall community...I think I'll keep pushing the medium's capabilities, showing techniques to inspire others.

[mikey]

As for one-person experimenters such as myself...I sort of am evaluating my niche with regards with the overall community...I think I'll keep pushing the medium's capabilities, showing techniques to inspire others.

Hmmm, what do you mean by this?

[DaFool]

Meaning, while I'm not a good a writer nor as good an artist as some others here, I'll keep on thinking up ways of unique presentation that's rarely used in visual novels. (Notice my attitude and concerns regarding widescreen) I'll also be working more on polishing all my skills so they'll seem less amateur.

So, while the big teams can pool resources together to create something more similar to an authentic ren'ai game from Japan, I'll most probably be concentrating on stuff that will create reactions ranging from "WTF is that?" to (hopefully) "OMG that is too awesome!"

[mikey]

So, while the big teams can pool resources together to create something more similar to an authentic ren'ai game from Japan...

Statistically though, there has never been one single pro-grade OEL project completed. Ever since 1998, when it all started. There have been big teams (LoveRevo), ambitious teams (Project Journeys), professional teams (Hyperbunny), but none of them really did it.

So, as always, I'm rooting for the game, but the moment of truth will probably come in about 6 months. If things still run and there is substantial progress, then the chance is good.

I'll most probably be concentrating on stuff that will create reactions ranging from "WTF is that?" to (hopefully) "OMG that is too awesome!"

*gulp* just don't combine those two into something like OMGWTF...

[PyTom]

Statistically though, there has never been one single pro-grade OEL project completed. Ever since 1998, when it all started. There have been big teams (LoveRevo), ambitious teams (Project Journeys), professional teams (Hyperbunny), but none of them really did it.

I'd expect that to change soon, though. Okashi seems like they are on a course that will lead to their game being completed... at least, the art and the engine seem to be on track. I'm a little concerned about the writing, but that's only because we've seen samples of the art and engine screenshots, but none of the writing has leaked out yet.

Of course, Okashi is a business, in that it can pay people to do work. That puts them apart from some of the other projects, which aren't so much business, as vague promises to split the money if the project proves successful.

(I'm debating trying to set up a publishing house for visual novels, but I haven't really had time to see if I can make the business model close.)

I also think we have a number of projects here that have quite a bit of potential. Evergreen Valley is already more than twice the size of Moonlight Walks, and it's just getting started. I don't have the latest version of Controlled Chaos handy, but I recall it's getting up there, and it has voice, too. Similarly, U<mumble> Planet seems like a substantial game project. And (in my unbiased opinion), O3 is pro-grade in terms of quality, if not in terms of length.

[mikey]

Of course, Okashi is a business, in that it can pay people to do work.

It is a big advantage if you pay your people, means you have leverage. However, ShiraOka is also a surefire project, having a school setting and being a dating sim rather than a VN. Plus, it's not impossible to be well organized if you have the time. So the only challenge, I expect, is going to be the actual marketing and selling of the product, which can be seen even now, as they try to find the most appealing and acceptable design and solutions directly with the potential players (timed choices etc.)

I also think we have a number of projects here that have quite a bit of potential.

Agreed, I didn't want to be negative.

And (in my unbiased opinion), O3 is pro-grade in terms of quality, if not in terms of length.

Im my even more unbiased opinion, GR has the pro length. But I mean... should I care? It's this eternal goal of freegame makers to make something that's comparable to commercial productions. But it's really not possible - I for one don't want to spend more than 6-8 months on a project - ideally it would be 4 months. It's just too much, because (here comes the theory) the core of every VN game is the story/idea.

Now, I can have the River Trap idea, the Kaori idea, or the O3 idea. But, these aren't incredibly big ideas, so I don't want to spend several years working on them. It's just not worth it. You can say that the essence of Three Sisters Story or Divi-Dead is similar, in a way that it's an idea or story and that's it. In fact, I can think of very few works (movies, literature), that can't be simplified or the ideas of which can't be filtered out into small core statements or thoughts. And then it's only a matter of presentation - if I'm a big studio, I can make the same idea a bit more spectacular. But it will stay the same idea. Like old movies vs. remakes. Often something starts as a small story, a book, and then gets a lot of spotlight in a more production-intensive iteration, without which the story/idea might well have ended up forgotten.

And that's often the case with big titles - underneath there is a simple idea, and the only difference is presentation.

Most of all though, my point is not to get discouraged or throw away your project just because someone has a more spectacular presentation.

[DaFool]

Good points. I sometimes don't see the point of throwing more than 200 million dollars to create yet another Superman movie which doesn't substantially add to what the comics and previous incarnations had already provided. Also, why on earth did M Night Shymalan's bedtime story get turned into a movie, while I'm sure there are far better stories out there? The more media I am exposed to, the more I realize that both excellent and stupid ideas are evenly spread out among both low and high budget productions. Its just that the high budget ones have higher profiles, and the people behind them have more clout.

The primary reason why I like anime-related fandom is because of the doujinshi nature of it all. Some of the ideas are so stupid, and yet others are so brilliant. It's because instead of some editor who will screen, say, for example, harem plots because they're too abnormal, you have insane fans who say, 'bring it on', and the publishers who cater to them. There isn't going to be any Pulitzer Prize given (since most of the stuff I like is a little messed up), yet I can count far more anime-related stories and media which have touched me more than the classics of required reading in high school and college.

A way to encourage people to release their games despite feelings that it may not stand to the spotlight of more shinier games is to encourage the attitude of the indy movie scene. When an indy movie acquires a high budget, it ceases the feeling of being an indy movie. It loses that 'raw personal touch' if you will.

At the same time, we should think of of creative cost-cutting of time and money. Examples: Manga is printed in black and white, anime is rendered on 12 frames per second without lip-sync. Think how we can conserve our talents in making our visual novels while enhancing the readers experience at the same time.

[DaFool]

(I'm debating trying to set up a publishing house for visual novels, but I haven't really had time to see if I can make the business model close.)

We just need more content, and it will be feasible in the near future. Of course, since we are mainly doing this for fun and not as our primary source of living, there's no way we can match the output of professional studios. But what we lack in terms of epic scale or length or visuals we can more than make up for in terms of quality of writing and quantity of various experiences.

I imagine we can put together a disc, of say, of O3, Controlled Chaos(when done), Utsukushii Planet(when done), Gakuen Redux (with color art), Garden Society Kikuit (with color art), Go! Magical Boy, Metropolitan Blues (hmmm, maybe keep this B&W), and a complete Ren'Py 6.0.0 developer set plus demo and feature pack. That's enough hours to play 1-2 midlength professional games. Sell them at cons or wherever.

We have the technology. Heck I prefer Ren'Py over ONscripter because its faster and supports replay of animations and expressions. We have the writers who actually care about making a good romantic story rather than just filler text that would sell. The way to bring in the larger bishoujo game crowd is moe. With the freshened design of Eileen, we are getting there.

[Watercolorheart]

I'm honestly flattered you're including mine in that line-up. I was thinking it was a bit too "niche" with its hard sci-fi slant.

[monele]

(with color art)

I'll disagree here. I think these projects were meant to be in B&W... Plus it's just how the original one was released and it's now part of it... ^^;... (authors, feel free to disagree )

[PyTom]

I'm honestly flattered you're including mine in that line-up. I was thinking it was a bit too "niche" with its hard sci-fi slant.

Actually controlled chaos seems more like soft sci-fi to me. There are a couple of scientific errors in it... one that comes to mind is that you mention "macroscopes" expanded the size of the observable universe, IIRC fivefold.

The thing is, the observable universe isn't simply the set of things we can see in the universe. Instead, it's the set of things we could potentially ever see.

Space itself is expanding. Between two points that are far away, the rate of the expansion of the space between them is proportional to the distance between the two points.

According to wikipedia, the rate of this expansion is roughly 70 km/s per megaparsec. So every second, we get 70 kilometers away from things that are one megaparsec away... 140 kilometers away from things that are 2 megaparsecs away, and so on. We're not moving, the other thing isn't moving... it's that the space between us is growing.

Now, think of a point where things are so far away from us, that the distance between us and it is growing faster then the speed of light. Light from that point will never reach us. That's because it's outside of the observable universe. No matter how big our telescopes get, if no light can reach them, there's no way to see that point.

And since nothing is actually moving, limitations of the speed of light don't apply. Insane but true... for more details, and a really good article explaining this, check out the March 2005 issue of Scientific American.

... and realize that the universe is a far more interesting place then is commonly thought.

Now, details like this matter in hard sci-fi... but in soft sci-fi, they don't. CC is, I think soft sci-fi... and I think that's what's right for the story.

(Oh, and I would suspect CC will belong on a list like the one above when it's done. But I'm less interested in selling free games at cons, and more interested in sponsoring the development of commercial games... well, I don't know what I want, really. Other then for there to be more good games.)

[mikey]

The way to bring in the larger bishoujo game crowd is moe.

I agree, actually. If by moe you mean anime characters that are made to be liked (something like anime stars or whatever). Dating sims with girls befitting many tastes, and so on.

IMO it really is possible to create a game that will have these characteristics - as you said, the technology is here, there are writers who can put together a neutral-but-interesting story and there are artists who can deliver the visuals and also the audio.

However, I can say that as far as I go, a moe title is nothing that I'd like to make. This is something I'd rather PLAY than make. If I did it for some other reason than to give it away for free - for instace I'd make the games to make money, or to create a portfolio for myself, the motivation would be different.

But again, having been in the commercial game-making circus for two years, I see freegame makers want to reach the level or even mimic the games of big companies - but what the companies make is dictated by the market, not *really* by their creativity - so if you want to sell, you can't do without moe. People see that from the shiny eye-candy perspective, but in fact, it's a prison.

So my viewpoint may be a bit different - I'd say building a good strong niche is possible, not really anything beyond that. The last thing you want to do is start making a game for the wrong reasons.

[Adorya]

Right now we plan to release SCEnE as a standalone engine and editor for free for non-commercial use.

I keep the words "right now" for future modification in their website but the engine doesn't seems to be aimed at first for commercial purpose (only packaged game or convention game will be charged) unlike Blade or Ren'py which can possibly enter a commercial market.

Though I didn't see in what license type they are going to, so as usual, wait and see...

Edit: adding comment from post above, it is possible to not fall into the moe trap, but the rest of the game has to be strongly well done (writing, music, graphic style and why not gameplay innovation)

[DaFool]

However, I can say that as far as I go, a moe title is nothing that I'd like to make. This is something I'd rather PLAY than make. If I did it for some other reason than to give it away for free - for instace I'd make the games to make money, or to create a portfolio for myself, the motivation would be different
...
So my viewpoint may be a bit different - I'd say building a good strong niche is possible, not really anything beyond that. The last thing you want to do is start making a game for the wrong reasons.

There's a Japanese 3-character term for innovation, I forget what it is, but basically consists of the following:

1.) The standard. The conservative, i.e., keeping elements that have the original appeal of whatever product or endeavor it is.
2.) The branching out. A few little tidbits that show you are trying to go beyond the conventional, yet at the same time keeping your feet planted on the ground.
3.) The revolutionary. A few aspects that are totally above and beyond what has been encountered before.

Look at the examples of successful doujinshi:

1.) The cute girl(s) you go moe over. Tsukihime...check. Higurashi...check. Narcissu...check.

2.) The above and beyond, yet still normal. Tsukihime...school setting, but supernatural horror plus personal drama. Higurashi...school setting, but mystery horror plus supernatural drama. Narcissu...hospital setting, but combined with road movie conventions

3.) The totally revolutionary. Tsukihime...the time loop system of gameplay (heard about it in this forum). Higurashi...the clues + answers subdivision of storytelling. Narcissu...the super minimalism and option for voice / unvoice.