The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
narusasu
Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:07 pm
Completed: N/A
Projects: N/A
Location: Texas
Contact:

The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#1 Post by narusasu » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:29 pm

Not 'bad' in the since of poorly thought out characters 'bad', but 'bad' as in characters that make poor choices 'bad'. And when I mean they make poor choices, they’re doing things like killing, raping, stealing, and lying. They’re bad apples even if they do have some good in them. They’re obviously hanging around for no good reasons if they’re hanging around the protagonist.

So, while researching the seven sins and writing up some character profiles for a potential Yaoi VN, it suddenly came to my attention… Man! What a bunch of assholes! Though their bad attitudes are correlated with the storylines theme of Pandora Box and the seven sins, I started to think maybe it’s a bad idea to have so many awful characters as love interests.

Sure, love ends up conquering the most vile parts of their bad attitudes, but still, they’re overall personalities are within the ‘ass-hole’ range. Once and egotistical conniving weasel, always an egotistical conniving weasel. Once an effeminate hot headed coward, always a… well you get the point.

So my question is, how many of you girls would still be interested in a yaoi that’s cast mainly comprises of not so nice characters? It really made me a bit worried about my cast when I realized that most BLs out there are filled with a slew of kind and caring handsome men who want nothing more than to make your protagonist male a happy hamster, unlike my… uh… cast of villains, trying to wreak havoc on the kind and naïve protagonist. C :>

User avatar
Aleema
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Organization: happyB
Tumblr: happybackwards
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#2 Post by Aleema » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:04 pm

I may be skewed in that I love antagonists. Guys who are overly nice only make me think that they're doing it to get in your pants. Guys who openly want sex + being antagonists are different beasts, but not "off the plate" as it were. Just don't give me flashbacks to actual pigs who actually degrade people and believe it.

I'm not sure how a game comprised ONLY of bad apples would go, though. 7 is quite a lot. It might get tiring or leave a bad after taste of men in general. It might help if there are some male characters, even if not LIs, that are on the main guy's side.

Also: rapists are not romantic interests. I know rape is totally standard in yaoi as it seems to be the only way to get someone to come out of the closet, but I'm not sure that makes it okay. If the person raped was a girl, it would be NOT OKAY x 1,000, so I don't see why it's okay if it's a dude. But, um. =\ I realize it's a typical yaoi concept.

User avatar
Omnificent
Veteran
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:23 pm
Projects: FA:NG, ???
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#3 Post by Omnificent » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:10 pm

I personally think it would be refreshing to have a game where the protagonist goes Count of Monte Cristo on all these abusive assholes and has really been pretending to be falling to their 'charms' in order to exact a more perfect revenge in the end, but I'm clearly not the target audience here. :P
Forever Alone: Nerds the Gathering - A brotome game. (Nerdy Valentine's Day Card and small status update 2/14/14)
Night at the Hospital - Maiden voyage of Team Snugglebunny
Skylessia: Tale of the Boon - Epic fantasy whatsit, currently on hiatus.
Viking Pipsqueak Productions Blog (under construction)

I occasionally frequently draw other people's characters. Now offering delinquentization, medievalization, and cyborgification. Hit me up in PM if you want sprites for your KN or non-ren'ai VN.

EVEN IF THE TENDONS OF MY THUMBS TEAR INTO NOTHINGNESS, EVEN IF I GO NEARSIGHTED FROM STARING TOO HARD AT THE SCREEN, EVEN IF MY BODY IS CLOSE TO COLLAPSE FROM THE 72 HOURS I HAVE GONE WITHOUT FOOD! I WILL DEFEAT YOU!

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#4 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:19 pm

I'm not so much catious about the bad guys, as the weak and naive protagonist :/ I have a pretty strong moral order and I don't think I would be able to stand watching anyone fall in love with people that were actually bad in the sense of murder or rape. I also don't like the idea of people be redeemed by love, because I don't like personality changes as they are unrealistic. So if the guys are falling so far out of moral range that I would like to see them dead, they are not likely to be a romantic interest I am interested in.

Of course, this all comes down to how it is written, how the characters are developed, their motivations etc.

User avatar
Mink
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:00 am
Completed: Say You Love Me (Short Version), C!P (NaNo12), Lady Misfortune, NatH, W/K, MtF, SMQ, TBM, TMHK, LoC, MMDG
Projects: Stuff
Organization: Metal Orphans
Location: Somewhere that's green
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#5 Post by Mink » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:37 pm

You know, there's a part in Now and Then, Here and There where one of the men who raped Sarah offers to run away with her, after telling her about the village she was in about to come under attack. Shockingly enough, her reaction basically amounts to, "Go fuck yourself."

And I would react the same way. If a character is all, "Sure I'm a rapist, but I've totes changed!", no. Just no.

There's being a jerk ass, and then there's being a completely irredeemable douche bag you want to see set on fire.
Aleema wrote:I know rape is totally standard in yaoi as it seems to be the only way to get someone to come out of the closet, but I'm not sure that makes it okay. If the person raped was a girl, it would be NOT OKAY x 1,000, so I don't see why it's okay if it's a dude. But, um. =\
In my opinion, no, it's not okay. It's just a double standard (a huge one) where a girl getting raped = THE WORST THING EVER. A guy gets raped = meh.
I realize it's a typical yaoi concept.
There's a reason I hate most yaoi.
"I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love."

***Say You Love Me***Human Enough***Cheerful!Polymorph [NaNo12][Complete!]***
Image
"Couldn't you stop this?"
"Probably, but I don't want to."


*Website, yo*

User avatar
Snow Blossom
Veteran
Posts: 419
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 10:30 pm
Location: Right. Behind. You.
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#6 Post by Snow Blossom » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:56 pm

narusasu wrote:And when I mean they make poor choices, they’re doing things like killing, raping
For such actions to even be called "poor choices," the characters need to have some VERY good reasons, especially for the latter one. The only reason I would ever be able to like - and that's a very tentative like - characters who commit such crimes would be if they have good reasons for it and are not just balls of hatred and/or despair - i.e.: they have personality.
Frankly, I think I'd play a game with such characters more to explore their personalities and backstories than for the romance. That doesn't mean that I'll like it any less, but you'll have to make your characters very convincing.

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4053
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: something mysterious involving yuri, usually
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#7 Post by papillon » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:59 pm

Of course it's not that much of a double standard in *japanese* games where rape is apparently popular in otome games but that's another story.

Anyway. If you openly advertise something as a dark nasty story it will probably find an audience, but a lot of other audience will be put off it. However if you're going down that route you REALLY should put warnings on it. You don't want someone who is expecting a nicer romance to end up horribly disturbed.

User avatar
Mink
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:00 am
Completed: Say You Love Me (Short Version), C!P (NaNo12), Lady Misfortune, NatH, W/K, MtF, SMQ, TBM, TMHK, LoC, MMDG
Projects: Stuff
Organization: Metal Orphans
Location: Somewhere that's green
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#8 Post by Mink » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:24 pm

papillon wrote:Anyway. If you openly advertise something as a dark nasty story it will probably find an audience, but a lot of other audience will be put off it. However if you're going down that route you REALLY should put warnings on it. You don't want someone who is expecting a nicer romance to end up horribly disturbed.
Is it terrible I kind of want to play Enzai: Falsely Accused just out of pure Bile Fascination? D8

(This is related, because seems like the sites I've seen selling it fail to mention that whole hardcore prison rape thing. You know, just a TINY detail)
"I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love."

***Say You Love Me***Human Enough***Cheerful!Polymorph [NaNo12][Complete!]***
Image
"Couldn't you stop this?"
"Probably, but I don't want to."


*Website, yo*

User avatar
Rewritten Ennui
Veteran
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:50 pm
Organization: TwinTurtle Games
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#9 Post by Rewritten Ennui » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:29 pm

narusasu wrote:And when I mean they make poor choices, they’re doing things like killing, raping, stealing, and lying.
Did they do it because they had to/were forced to? Or did they do it just for the sake of doing bad things to other people? I'm don't read or watch yaoi so I'm not too familiar with the usual plot devices, but you should tread carefully when dealing with issues like rape and such.
papillon wrote: If you openly advertise something as a dark nasty story it will probably find an audience, but a lot of other audience will be put off it. However if you're going down that route you REALLY should put warnings on it. You don't want someone who is expecting a nicer romance to end up horribly disturbed.
Some people like to ignore warning labels anyway >_> At that point, it's the reader's problem, not the author's. You should still put something up anyways just so that way you can say "Hey, I told you that you were going to get into some serious shit here."
I've swapped accounts to CheeryMoya, so this account is no longer in use. Refer to the new account if you want to contact me.

Twinturtle Games Website

narusasu
Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:07 pm
Completed: N/A
Projects: N/A
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#10 Post by narusasu » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:16 pm

Omnificent wrote:I personally think it would be refreshing to have a game where the protagonist goes Count of Monte Cristo on all these abusive assholes and has really been pretending to be falling to their 'charms' in order to exact a more perfect revenge in the end, but I'm clearly not the target audience here. :P
Heh, that's actually a close description to what happens. : P It's been so long since I've read that book! This is off topic but, now that you've reminded me... I may just pick it up again.
Aleema wrote: I'm not sure how a game comprised ONLY of bad apples would go, though. 7 is quite a lot.
Oh no, I’m not ambitious enough to make seven men, ha ha. I’ve split up the sins into four different characters. Thanks for the thoughts on this, they’re much appreciated.
Auro-Cyanide wrote:I'm not so much catious about the bad guys, as the weak and naive protagonist :/ I have a pretty strong moral order and I don't think I would be able to stand watching anyone fall in love with people that were actually bad in the sense of murder or rape. I also don't like the idea of people be redeemed by love, because I don't like personality changes as they are unrealistic. So if the guys are falling so far out of moral range that I would like to see them dead, they are not likely to be a romantic interest I am interested in.

Of course, this all comes down to how it is written, how the characters are developed, their motivations etc.
As for the weak character, he isn’t as weak as he first appears. But I don’t want to get too into how he is. Though it’s still hard to say… he is and he isn’t. He will have a personality though; he’s no Mary Sue.

There will be no major personality’s changes in the character you fall in love with. These characters will still have their basically bad apple personalities, but their more awful goals will be changed. If it’s the conniving character, he will still be conniving in the end, but the personality trait will be toned down. His conniving characteristics become less extreme and harmful by the end. Redeeming them is not what I have in mind. When I say ‘love conquers all’ it’s a loosely put term for me. At the very least, it helps them onto the path of changing. They will not completely reform as it is already a part of their personalities, but they will gain a greater conscious and find themselves wanting to break into a different character. (think of shugo chara lol)

Thank you for the feedback so far everyone! I see this is starting to sound as how I thought it would after thinking about it. Rape is a touchy subject as I feared. Maybe I'll tone down the depiction of the 7 sins a bit. I'm still only roughly sketching out the story, so I have room to re-create scenarios. Though, I'm still thinking about it. Like Auro-Cyanide said, it all comes down to how it's written.

I'll tamper around with it and maybe ask for a few beta readers some time later to look through a couple of questionable scenarios. I'd like it to reach a broader audience than what Enzai has for sure. I'm still lurking around Enzai territory, but I don't want it to be so awful that it scares everyone off either, that's for sure. It won't be gruesomely graphic like Enzai.

And I will definitely put up warnings whenever I’m showing the writings/possible VN to an audience. ^^; Thanks for the reminder!

gekiganwing
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2463
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:38 pm
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#11 Post by gekiganwing » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:28 am

Not too long ago, I read "Beyond Heaving Bosoms: The Smart Bitches' Guide to Romance Novels," a humorous book in which the writers talked about why they find romance novels to be a guilty pleasure. Along the way, they discuss the evolution of the category, and talked about how books written from the 1970s through the 1980s often included a rape scene. (Yes, they're referring to novels written in English, and marketed to adult women.)

But back on topic, it's your decision what to write, and how you will approach it. Some people like mild and upbeat BL, while other people prefer an emphasis on angst, sex, or convoluted relationships. Some people want as many fantastic elements as possible, while others look for realism.
"Welcome to WhiteSnow, a town filled with snow. Enjoy the world of snow."
-Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure

User avatar
TsukiShima
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:47 am
Projects: Heartful Memory
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#12 Post by TsukiShima » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:44 am

I'm not sure if I understand completely, but if I'm right, this is about the protagonist being naive surrounded bad guys and most probably turning into his love interest, right?

I think Togainu no Chi is a good example? (I'm not referring to it's anime, the VN is purely Yaoi). However I must admit, I don't want everyone that hangs out with the protagonist are bad guys, I would be very mad to find out that all of them only tricked and played him. Maybe you can make them turn into good later on, but still have that 'villainous' feel around.

As a girl, I admit I love badass guy as well as the goodie-goodie one. Some badass guy, have an agenda behind him. They appear to bad, but in the end it would later reveal they did it for a really good reason. I love those kind of things, it's like that Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. It would really take the attention of the audience.

So basically, the characters can be bad as they want, but some of them still need have a sense of justice. Each of them need their weakness, and I think that BL VN will be perfect to be play by us Yaoi fangirls.

I was just throwing in my opinions, so forgive me for some misunderstandings.

User avatar
Aleema
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Organization: happyB
Tumblr: happybackwards
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#13 Post by Aleema » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:52 am

gekiganwing wrote:Not too long ago, I read "Beyond Heaving Bosoms: The Smart Bitches' Guide to Romance Novels," a humorous book in which the writers talked about why they find romance novels to be a guilty pleasure. Along the way, they discuss the evolution of the category, and talked about how books written from the 1970s through the 1980s often included a rape scene. (Yes, they're referring to novels written in English, and marketed to adult women.)
Those have an entire web of reasoning and purpose, one of which is just to be erotica. Romance novels, as I say, are porn for women. Not just stories w/romance. That's why they're called "trashy." They don't really stand as proof that rapists should be romantic interests or that rape is romantic - they're in a whole other world by themselves.

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#14 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:15 am

It is true that no matter what you do, there will be someone, somewhere that won't like it. It's just a fact you can't please veryone all the time.

I'm pretty sure there is nothing you could do that would freak me out. Wire in the Blood is one of my favourite shows because it delves into the darker side of humanity, which is there whether we like it or not. So that interests me a lot. Again it would be how you dealt with it.

I think I would be worried if there was a positive message about negative acts. I don't care if characters accept them, since they are neither you nor me, but I don't like things that seem to promote negative acts (like twilight promotes staling as a romantic act :/) I'm pretty sure that isn't what you intend to do, but it might be something you need to stay aware of.

I have thought about it and my main problem would be a weak protagonist. Some people like that type of thing, but I personally don't like playing as a weak character. It would just... irk me on so many levels if there wasn't an option to stand up for myself. Have you perhaps considered having a main character as bad as the rest of them? I wouldn't mind playing a bad guy amoungst bad guys, that sounds like fun :D Plus I think I would feel happier if it was an even playing field.

Rape is a touchy subject and it is linked to fetishes because of the whole concept of dominace vs submissiveness. However there is a big difference between fake/fantasy and real depending on how you write it. A rape scene in an erotic novel is going to be very different to how a rape victim would tell their story. It's probably something you want to be careful with and be aware that some people won't play it depending on what you do.

User avatar
Taleweaver
Writing Maniac
Posts: 3428
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:51 am
Completed: Metropolitan Blues, The Loyal Kinsman, Daemonophilia, The Dreaming, The Thirteenth Year, Adrift, Bionic Heart 2, Secrets of the Wolf, The Photographer
Projects: The Pilgrim's Path, Elspeth's Garden, Secret Adventure Game!
Organization: Tall Tales Productions
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

#15 Post by Taleweaver » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:29 am

If you base the bad guys on the Seven Sins, I'd really like to see anybody draw Gluttony as your typical yaoi bishounen... only with an additional 200 lbs of weight...
Scriptwriter and producer of Metropolitan Blues
Creator of The Loyal Kinsman
Scriptwriter and director of Daemonophilia
Scriptwriter and director of The Dreaming
Scriptwriter of Zenith Chronicles
Scriptwriter and director of The Thirteenth Year
Scriptwriter and director of Romance is Dead
Scriptwriter and producer of Adrift
More about me in my blog
"Adrift - Like Ever17, but without the Deus Ex Machina" - HigurashiKira

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Mandakaru