Katawa Shoujo released

[Blane Doyle]

EDIT: Ok, looking back on it now, I snapped a bit here. The first time I saw what you thought, in the ACT1 thread, I didn't let it get to me. After all, not everyone will like everything, and every game will inevitably get bad reviews. But seeing you say almost the same thing here just bothered me greatly, since I have seen this happen with people who try to force their thoughts onto others or make their opinion fact (which I am certain you did not mean to do at all). But I will not edit this, so you can see what I felt upon reading what I felt to be a too harsh post multiple times. If you had been more lenient in tone, not your opinion, I would not have snapped, and I am sorry. You opinion itself is perfectly reasonable and understandable, I just think you said it too harsh to me.

... Honestly, I don't see why you think the game is so bad Taleweaver. I think it is very well written and is a great game in its own right. Sure, it may not be as great as, say, something like Ever 17, 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors, Corpse Party, or Clannad (all of which have people saying they are awful games despite actually not being awful). But for a OELVN, not to mention a FREE one, it does what it was intended to do and rather well, and it raises the bar for any that may come out in the future, as many in the past were of far lesser quality, while a select few (Narcissu and True Remembrance for example) are a bit better.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if you do not like it that's cool. But not liking it doesn't make it BAD.

It's not THE BEST VN EVER, but I have played many Visual Novels, almost 40 to date, and in comparison to some of the officially released and fantranslated ones I have played (Tasty Shafts or Do You Like Horny Bunnies for example... never again) it is at the very least "rather good but not extraordinary". But not "just a long 4Chan project".

Every game has flaws, but every game also has strengths, and you seem to be putting the flaws ABOVE the strengths. Take other non VN games, like Rule of Rose. It has an AMAZING story... but shit combat. And because everyone was giving it mid to low reviews only because of COMBAT it missed many potential fans. Or Okami. The game was nearly ignored and put the studio behind it out of business. Because people did not like the way it LOOKED. Because it was new and strange and foreign, and the brush techniques seemed too annoying or hard to use (despite later receiving critical acclaim). Yes, KS has glaring flaws, some routes are just BETTER than others (to some people, others might find the "better routes" horribly boring), and it is lacking in quite a few things that VNs that are normally sold have, and the writing is not the best.

But for what it does RIGHT, which is an understanding of those with disabilities without making it insulting or stupid, at the very least good writing, very good art, and quite a few compelling and good routes and events, it makes it all that more worth while. And since it is free, that makes it better. Now, would I buy this game? Maybe for 5-15 dollars. But not for 40 or so.

And I am sorry, but claiming that those of us praising the game must have "never played a visual novel before" is utterly insulting. Are you saying that those of us praising it here have never played one? Because I am pretty sure that is not the case. Yes, some have not. But when you think about that, isn't that a GOOD thing? I mean, if they like THIS they could look for more and potentially become interested in the genre as a whole, boosting sales of not only the official ones from places like JAST and MangaGamer, but OELVN sales as well.

In addition to your mention of what I believe to be Hanako's disability. She suffered trauma watching her mother burn alive protecting her. Perhaps you could stretch your mind a bit to possibly believe she has PSTD, which IS treated as a disability if it is severe enough to effect a persons life, or perhaps another stress or mental disorder from the event. It not being stated does not mean that it could not be possible, NOR does it mean they were just lazy, as people sometimes leave things like that out in the open for speculation on purpose.

I am sorry, but I honestly believe that you are being rather close minded on the matter, like you are comparing it to games that had more backing it, or basing your thoughts only on personal preference. Do you have it out for the game because it is from 4Chan? About people with disabilities? Not up to your specifications? Or not official? Or not from HERE? I am sorry, but it seems that is why you are saying what you are saying. Like I said, you can state your opinion. But not liking the game does not make it bad, just like liking a game does not make it good either. (That said, again, I think the game is just "good" on its own right and not amazing, so don't take my words as someone standing up for something they like blindly. I am saying this because what you are saying honestly baffles and annoys me because of how you are saying it, not that you don't like the game.)

[applegirl]

I'm surprised this is even getting to this point, but I really agree with Bane Reiko in terms of how this discussion is going. It is a fine VN that we all wanted to praise, praise that apparently not every one wants to give. Hey, that's life. Not everyone will like the visual novels made by others. But we should all do it in a respectful manner. Heck, I could easily name many visual novels that are praised that I can't stand. A lot of which are made on this board actually. But I won't because I respect not only the people who put a lot of work into the visual novel, but also the people who enjoyed it.

There seems to be a lot of haters (of this VN and of the OLEVN). I'd hate for this to ruin what is (imo) a work that showed a lot of love and dedication. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean the visual novel is bad, it just wasn't the kind of story/writing that you liked.

I mean, we can be respectful at least. Acting as though people who have differing opinions than us haven't read VNs is kind of insulting. I can post the link to my vndb profile that has 112 visual novels rated (both from JP and OLEVN), but who cares? The fact that I've read a lot of them doesn't make my opinion more valid than anyone else.

Also: I would have paid money for this VN as well. I can't say that about a lot of the free OLEVN I've read.

EDIT: I thought about it and understand people would want to knock this VN off because of the subject matter and the way they handled it. But I guess I should admit my personal background in some of this. My little sister has pretty bad burns, not nearly as bad as one of the girls in this VN, but enough to be teased by all the kids in school. I'm not going to go into the details, but the scenes in this VN hit close to home with how Hanako acted. So when I read this VN (with the adult scenes off, thank God), it really touched me. Any kind of VN that makes me cry is enough to make me admire the heck out of it. I can't call it the best VN I've ever read, I'll admit I've skipped a few sections. But yeah, I liked it. I liked it an awful lot.

[Fawn]

Just finished Lilly's route, it was really beautiful. If I was a man I'd totally marry a woman like Lilly... <3

Anyways, about the criticisms of the game- particularly Taleweaver's criticisms- I really don't think it should be taken so seriously. As it's been said over and over again, the writing is really good for what it is. Sure, it's long, but- have you tried other ero games? Not only are the ones I've tried written pretty blandly, they're even longer than KS when it comes to describing things... And they definitely aren't as heartfelt and engaging as KS.

Also, I think it'll be nice if KS makes people have higher standards. Yes, not everyone can afford to have the level of quality KS has achieved, but hopefully those who do will say "Hey, I should step my game up." There's been much talk on this forum about the "big" games like KS that "small fries" cannot compare to. I really don't believe that- if everyone pushed themselves more and pooled their talents, it's completely possible for "small fries" to make a great "big" quality game.

[Sapphi]

If you had been more lenient in tone, not your opinion, I would not have snapped, and I am sorry. You opinion itself is perfectly reasonable and understandable, I just think you said it too harsh to me.

I think the reason for Taleweaver's blunt criticism is not necessarily that he has it out for the creators or 4chan or people with disabilities, but that there are so many people out there shrieking about how amazing it is and not being very heavy with literary criticism. If you saw a game everyone was bashing and you liked parts of it, you would probably be motivated to write an article about Why It Doesn't Suck filled with your very strong opinion as a reaction to the general consensus. I think it works the other way, too.

It's also very frustrating for people of creative disciplines like writing to spend a lot of time getting things right and then see their work (or other work of similar caliber) be shoved under a rug because something less technically correct got popular. It implies that nobody should bother to develop their writing skills, just stuff a bunch of sparkly vampires or moe moe girls into it and profit. (This isn't intended to be a comment about the writing in KS since I've only played Act 1 very long ago, just a general observation.)

Anyway, I didn't think his comment was particularly harsh, but that's coming from an aspiring writer who really wants to avoid making mistakes in writing and tries to learn from criticism of other works.

[Omnificent]

I dunno, the visuals were nice and all, but if the plot and characterization had sucked balls all of that would have been for naught. As it happened the plot and characterization did not suck balls and it was, as Fawn pointed out, better than in most straight-up romance eroge.

That being said there is certainly room to challenge it. I would love to see more OELVNs that are more ambitious in scope than the Japanese high school, and I think that it's awesome that we have such projects going or completed. There is also room to challenge/subvert the common cliches of bishoujo and otome games even within that archetype, which I think can be done effectively regardless of overall production values. To take Katawa Shoujo as an 'abandon all hope' for the rest of the scene would be like saying that the existence of companies that make small, English-language visual novels for pay means that no one should try making them with anything less than the standard that affords.

[Blane Doyle]

If you had been more lenient in tone, not your opinion, I would not have snapped, and I am sorry. You opinion itself is perfectly reasonable and understandable, I just think you said it too harsh to me.

I think the reason for Taleweaver's blunt criticism is not necessarily that he has it out for the creators or 4chan or people with disabilities, but that there are so many people out there shrieking about how amazing it is and not being very heavy with literary criticism. If you saw a game everyone was bashing and you liked parts of it, you would probably be motivated to write an article about Why It Doesn't Suck filled with your very strong opinion as a reaction to the general consensus. I think it works the other way, too.

It's also very frustrating for people of creative disciplines like writing to spend a lot of time getting things right and then see their work (or other work of similar caliber) be shoved under a rug because something less technically correct got popular. It implies that nobody should bother to develop their writing skills, just stuff a bunch of sparkly vampires or moe moe girls into it and profit. (This isn't intended to be a comment about the writing in KS since I've only played Act 1 very long ago, just a general observation.)

Anyway, I didn't think his comment was particularly harsh, but that's coming from an aspiring writer who really wants to avoid making mistakes in writing and tries to learn from criticism of other works.

That does make sense. Again, like I said, I snapped a bit and I suppose I did what you said in a way. However, I have always been taught and believe in fair opinions. If you dislike something, that is fine, but when you make it sound harsh or like you truly hate something without much backing it, that is going too far and makes you come off wrong to others. Tone is something that is very important in any kind of writing, be it for novellas, VNs, or just forum posts. Though I think someone making the opposite argument with the same tone is just as bad, which is why I apologized. I try to keep my things in the middle ground when it comes to reviews, make it sound like I find something good and something bad in everything, keep it... general and not overly harsh.

Let me go a bit further in my own thoughts, and show what I mean, ok? This will probably be the last I post about this, unless something happens

For example, I really did think Shizune's route was weak... exceptionally so. But Hanako and Rin's routes made up for that greatly so it does not bother me as much, and should I write a review I would mention this as such, being my own opinion of course. And the ero scenes... could have just be glossed over or removed. That most likely would have made it a much better experience, despite it having a disable option.

However, I am glad the game is getting praise for its message, that disabilities do not make you more or less of a person. You always are, and will be, a person. Just like everyone else. This is the strongest point to the game and shows the strength behind Visual novels, despite being weaker in the writing than it could have been. The writing works well enough, but isn't stellar.

I myself have received... exceedingly harsh reviews that gave little help and only pointed out the flaws in my work. No positives, no suggestions, nothing. Just things like "this sucked" and that was it. So I get a little uptight about things like this. I think it is better to say something like "this is rather weak to me, it might have been better if this" or "this was very good, but this drags it down quite a bit" or even "I really do not like this at all, in my opinion you could have" as opposed to "this is weak" or "I didn't like it, that makes it bad" and leaving it at that.

*shrug* Simple, easy, with feedback, and not harsh to the point that the author or others might jump on you or push your crit aside. The first thing I was taught to do was to take all critical feedback into consideration, but the more harsh it was the more you should think it over as opposed to someone mentioning it kindly. It seems more hearted and truthful in the later, and more opinionated in the former.

Again, my opinion of this game it "it's just plain good". Not excellent, not crap. Nothing more, nothing less. Could have been better, but it also could have been MUCH worse. It being free makes me give it a little leeway, but not as much as one would think, and it is not, say 30 dollar "JAST USA" quality. It could never hope to be as good as some, but it exceeds where it is.

Also, I agree with you Omnificent.

[Taleweaver]

... Honestly, I don't see why you think the game is so bad Taleweaver.

Katawa Shoujo is certainly not "bad", or a "bad game". I don't think that and I never wrote that. However, I consider its writing very obviously below the standards the game itself sets with its top notch art, music and anime-series-quality animation. To me, it feels like there's a jarring clash between the writing and the other qualities of the game. If Katawa Shoujo were a movie, it would be as though the producers hired a cast of Academy Award winners for the roles, gave it a budget of a few hundred million dollars, made sure they had the best possible camera and SFX team, had John Williams write the score and then gave the whole thing to Uwe Boll to direct.

It's not THE BEST VN EVER, but I have played many Visual Novels, almost 40 to date, and in comparison to some of the officially released and fantranslated ones I have played (Tasty Shafts or Do You Like Horny Bunnies for example... never again) it is at the very least "rather good but not extraordinary". But not "just a long 4Chan project".

It is massively overrated, and the only reason why that isn't just bad is that it draws attention to other OELVNs as well. My point of view.

And I am sorry, but claiming that those of us praising the game must have "never played a visual novel before" is utterly insulting. Are you saying that those of us praising it here have never played one? Because I am pretty sure that is not the case. Yes, some have not. But when you think about that, isn't that a GOOD thing? I mean, if they like THIS they could look for more and potentially become interested in the genre as a whole, boosting sales of not only the official ones from places like JAST and MangaGamer, but OELVN sales as well.

Many people who are praising this game now have never played a VN before. Just read the threads on 4chan or in the KS blog forum: some even begin with "I never thought I'd ever play one of these games, but..." I realize that quite a few VN fans are also lauding the game. Many of these I had discussions with time and again about what qualities define a VN. And the overwhelmingly stated opinion was "the art". If you judge KS by that standard, of course it's the best thing since sliced bred, being free yet looking like $39.95 on Peach Princess.

In addition to your mention of what I believe to be Hanako's disability. She suffered trauma watching her mother burn alive protecting her. Perhaps you could stretch your mind a bit to possibly believe she has PSTD, which IS treated as a disability if it is severe enough to effect a persons life, or perhaps another stress or mental disorder from the event. It not being stated does not mean that it could not be possible, NOR does it mean they were just lazy, as people sometimes leave things like that out in the open for speculation on purpose.

Hanako has a psychiatric problem. So where's the resident psychiatrist in the school? Before the arrival of the protagonist, the only person to actually care about her was Lilly, another patient! How is that a believable setup?

I am sorry, but I honestly believe that you are being rather close minded on the matter, like you are comparing it to games that had more backing it, or basing your thoughts only on personal preference. Do you have it out for the game because it is from 4Chan? About people with disabilities? Not up to your specifications? Or not official? Or not from HERE? I am sorry, but it seems that is why you are saying what you are saying. Like I said, you can state your opinion. But not liking the game does not make it bad, just like liking a game does not make it good either. (That said, again, I think the game is just "good" on its own right and not amazing, so don't take my words as someone standing up for something they like blindly. I am saying this because what you are saying honestly baffles and annoys me because of how you are saying it, not that you don't like the game.)

KS IS from here. It's powered by Ren'Py, so its technical roots lie in Py'Tom's programming skills. There are a few other people who are also "from here" and who know that I consider their writing absolutely unbearable. It annoys me to see that despite its obvious flaws, people are discussing Katawa Shoujo as though it didn't have any, or as though it absolutely ruled the competition of both OELVNs and JVNs, and I think a little critical thought is in order here.

Anyways, about the criticisms of the game- particularly Taleweaver's criticisms- I really don't think it should be taken so seriously. As it's been said over and over again, the writing is really good for what it is. Sure, it's long, but- have you tried other ero games? Not only are the ones I've tried written pretty blandly, they're even longer than KS when it comes to describing things... And they definitely aren't as heartfelt and engaging as KS.

KS has ero content, but I don't rate it as an ero game, just as I don't rate Kanon as an ero game despite the H scenes. I rate it as a serious, dramatic VN about teenagers with physical disabilities and the trials they face in life, and if I take the game like that, I find its writing seriously lacking. It's too often a "normal" teenage romance and too seldom something more than that. And if it is, it is often annoyingly so, not to speak of the flaws in storytelling itself I already mentioned earlier.

Writing doesn't have too be good to be successful. I think Stephenie Meyer has proved that quite convincingly already.

It's also very frustrating for people of creative disciplines like writing to spend a lot of time getting things right and then see their work (or other work of similar caliber) be shoved under a rug because something less technically correct got popular. It implies that nobody should bother to develop their writing skills, just stuff a bunch of sparkly vampires or moe moe girls into it and profit. (This isn't intended to be a comment about the writing in KS since I've only played Act 1 very long ago, just a general observation.)

Not a bad observation.
*edit* Just noticed this:

I'm surprised this is even getting to this point, but I really agree with Bane Reiko in terms of how this discussion is going. It is a fine VN that we all wanted to praise, praise that apparently not every one wants to give. Hey, that's life. Not everyone will like the visual novels made by others. But we should all do it in a respectful manner. Heck, I could easily name many visual novels that are praised that I can't stand. A lot of which are made on this board actually. But I won't because I respect not only the people who put a lot of work into the visual novel, but also the people who enjoyed it.

I respect the makers of Katawa Shoujo. I immensely respect everybody who is able to kep a team together over five long years where I have trouble keeping a single artist with me over the timespan of only four months. And it's not as though I didn't enjoy the Hanako arc myself, which was damn fine writing despite one or two moments I felt were added for the sake of making the whole thing longer. But as one whole game, I believe KS to be lacking in quality in quite a few places, and if you're among the people who can wholeheartedly enjoy it and write enthusiastic odes to its greatness, then you must bear some ridicule just as Stephenie Meyer fans must bear the ridicule of people who don't believe vampires should sparkle. (Or, if you can relate to that more, the ridicule from people who believe you're a pervert and a pedophile for playing "these games where you try to rape underage schoolgirls", which is a synonym for "visual novels" in certain parts of the internet.)

[Silvere]

Hanako has a psychiatric problem. So where's the resident psychiatrist in the school? Before the arrival of the protagonist, the only person to actually care about her was Lilly, another patient! How is that a believable setup?

Just to throw it in, Hanako always sees a Therapist - At least it is mentioned from time to time

[Nightydreams]

Yes it is mentioned fequently by Lilly and I think the nurse that Hanako sees a Therapist weekly who resides in Yamanaku.

[Silvere]

Hanako herself mentions it too, although I don't know when that happened..

[DaFool]

Also, I think it'll be nice if KS makes people have higher standards. Yes, not everyone can afford to have the level of quality KS has achieved, but hopefully those who do will say "Hey, I should step my game up." There's been much talk on this forum about the "big" games like KS that "small fries" cannot compare to. I really don't believe that- if everyone pushed themselves more and pooled their talents, it's completely possible for "small fries" to make a great "big" quality game.

Most of the people with this sentiment (not directed particularly at you, btw) have never completed a game.

And those who have will kinda laugh at this idea nervously.

Every serious creator has always been 'stepping their game up'. Those who are not would have retired already.

I don't know if I can push myself further after having a day job, family and social responsibilities, and sleeping no earlier than 4AM every evening.

Adding more team members is actually contrary to ones goal if you want a consistent project. What I learned is that more time is spent in chat or email just managing people than actually working on assets for the game. Besides, I'm pretty sure those team members would rather work on their own projects or something that interests them more. I'm sure I have felt that way many times... it's just that I cannot betray the trust of others now that I've set a goal of 100% completion for every project I'm involved in.

What I did learn however is what peoples standards are in regards to production value. So going forward, instead of, say (just roughly) 50% Art 50% Writing, projects will be 75% Art 25% Writing in terms of amount of effort. I dare you to take all the EVNs and strip away everything but the plain text script and compare them side by side... we don't suck that much.

[Taleweaver]

Yes it is mentioned fequently by Lilly and I think the nurse that Hanako sees a Therapist weekly who resides in Yamanaku.

But what is she doing at a school prepared to take care of people with physical disabilities? Really, even the protagonist staying there is a bit of a stretch ("there's medical emergency assistance 24/7..."), but there is no reason why Hanako would be there.

What I did learn however is what peoples standards are in regards to production value. So going forward, instead of, say (just roughly) 50% Art 50% Writing, projects will be 75% Art 25% Writing in terms of amount of effort. I dare you to take all the EVNs and strip away everything but the plain text script and compare them side by side... we don't suck that much.

Hooray for not sucking! ^_^

[Silvere]

but there is no reason why Hanako would be there.

I think there was a scene in which Hanako described how the orphanage(After all nobody even wanted her after all that time and she was the oldest there) thought it would be better for her to get to yamanaku as she would constantly have problems with others, therefore it maybe making it easier for her..?


In addition I'm somewhat amused about Hisao nearly never having problems with his heart conditions. The only route where it REALLY got more important was Lilly's route. Everywhere else: "Well, yea, I got a heart condition but I never really have serious problems with it. Not to mention that I never visit the nurse except on Emi's route because I'm the main char and too important to die" =D

[Taleweaver]

In addition I'm somewhat amused about Hisao nearly never having problems with his heart conditions. The only route where it REALLY got more important was Lilly's route. Everywhere else: "Well, yea, I got a heart condition but I never really have serious problems with it. Not to mention that I never visit the nurse except on Emi's route because I'm the main char and too important to die" =D

Well, he IS taking his medication and (mostly) doing what the doctors recommend, and he already had heart surgery, so I guess he's somewhat stable. Also, it is mentioned in the beginning that his medication may have to be changed if it doesn't work out, however it seems to work out anyway, so his initial medication can't have been half bad. So he can live an almost normal life - that aspect of the story felt natural to me. (I'm a diabetic, so I can somewhat relate to people with chronic conditions.)

[Silvere]

Well, that might be true, but for example in Hanako's route he thought "That reminds me I should go training with emi.. But that can wait" and things like that.

There are just way too many moments where he seems like he doesn't care at all and that just feels awkward :/