The dilemma of a maker...

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
User avatar
F.I.A
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:49 pm
Projects: Winter Shard, EVE, Hyperion
Contact:

The dilemma of a maker...

#1 Post by F.I.A » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:57 am

If anyone had been visiting haeleth forum for the past 2 months, you should have see this thread before.

Frankly, while I am the artist of my own game, I am also a strict critique of my own work, and yea, each one of them gives me the doubt that it has flaws here and there. I want to show those works to others for comments for improvement, but I fear for a thing.

I have been thinking about posting more pictures and maybe a demo, but showing you guys the partial game might be spoiling as well, since you guys will expect what to come. Ultimately, you guys will suffer most when you cannot enjoy the game like any other players.

However, showing it to those not interested with the media is even tougher, since they will have no clue what is what(And that means few or no comment at all). I tried asking for comments from many art forums, but alas, that "o post(s)" gives me a lot of doubt. Are my works perfect without comment needed(Not in another thousand years.)? Or they are too bad to comment on? My pessimitic self tends to take the latter. Thus motivation heaps and drains faster than you say "winky knot".

Well, there you go, I pretty much ranted my woes. Let's see what other gamer/maker have to say.
「通りすがりのメーカだ。覚えとけ。」

----------
Winter shard
Image
WIP: Hyperion(Trace unknown), ?????(Progressing)

Adorya
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:51 pm
Contact:

#2 Post by Adorya » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:03 am

1st thing I suggest would be to work alone on a small & fast project, finish it then release it:

- It will test your abilities like in an exam, pick yourself a deadline and try to reach it
- You won't be bothered by comments that might change your point of view of your work. Some may be constructive but it is your work, you should be able to know your weaknesses and when to stop correcting a project
- Then, after your work is done, comments can be done, modifications if necessary can be made, etc...

The most important result will be your definite work preferences, how you want a project to be done...
If you failed the deadline, that would mean maybe you like to work slower, with wip thread and progressive beta. If you reached the deadline and you were satisfied, that mean you can mostly work on your own.

User avatar
mikey
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:03 am
itch: atpprojects
Contact:

#3 Post by mikey » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:40 am

The dilemma is indeed there.

I, for one, I don't like to see TOO much, I don't really play in-progress demos, because it doesn't fit my style, I want the full thing.

If you have a first demo, chances are that I'll play it, but not subsequent ones, as, exactly as you said, I don't want to spoil the experience for myself. Even when I'm making my own games, I try to give the thing to other team members as complete as I can do without them - for a better understanding of the concept etc.

The solution isn't simple - but IMO it should be that you will make what you can and then create a demo specifically for feedback purposes - it doesn't need to reveal the story, it just needs to show the aspects that you want comments on.

Many put out demos which are basically work-in-progress versions, and that's fine. But maybe a demo can be specifically designed for testers - show ideas you want comments on, while hiding the things you have already approved of and want as a surprise.

So my suggestion is a special public demo, which would contain all those elements that you aren't sure about - and not parts which you like. releasing a demo not for appeal, but for critique.

User avatar
Jake
Support Hero
Posts: 3826
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 pm
Contact:

#4 Post by Jake » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:36 am

Just as far as artwork is concerned, my approach (which has applied to several things, not only assets for a VN) has long been to show stuff to a handful of friends who are all well aware that I'm more interested in constructive criticism than praise; they then tear whatever I've done to bits, and I try and cater for their criticisms and improve it. Just last night a couple of guys helped me from this to this to this.

I find forum posts typically not so helpful, unfortunately. It depends on the forum, I guess, but a lot of the time I get the impression that art forums are more interested in congratulation than critique, and if people think there's something that could be improved they'll often avoid saying anything rather than helpfully point it out.


As far as gameplay is concerned, I guess I probably more or less agree with mikey's answer; if and when the time comes that I have a game I want to show to you guys (who seem to thankfully be bucking the trend I mentioned above for art forums, I have to mention) in a state where it's not finished and I'd like critique, I think I'd try to produce a more or less 'finished' demo version, probably the start of the game but nothing that gives away any major plot element from later on, specifically so as to leave the to-be-finished product still playable by anyone who's interested.
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

User avatar
Megaman Z
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 829
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Projects: NaNoRenO 2016, Ren'Py tutorial series
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The dilemma of a maker...

#5 Post by Megaman Z » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:19 pm

[color=blue]F.I.A[/color] wrote:I have been thinking about posting more pictures and maybe a demo, but showing you guys the partial game might be spoiling as well, since you guys will expect what to come. Ultimately, you guys will suffer most when you cannot enjoy the game like any other players.
um, am I the only one here who can enjoy a game regardless of if they have a walkthrough or played the demo to death?

I'll be more than willing to test-play a game (so long as it isn't of the adult variety) and NOT spoil it for anyone else.
~Kitsune Zeta

User avatar
dizzcity
Veteran
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:51 am
Projects: Lakeside Sunset, Wedding Vows, Working Woman
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Re: The dilemma of a maker...

#6 Post by dizzcity » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:45 pm

Megaman Z wrote:um, am I the only one here who can enjoy a game regardless of if they have a walkthrough or played the demo to death?

I'll be more than willing to test-play a game (so long as it isn't of the adult variety) and NOT spoil it for anyone else.
You're not the only one. :) However, I have to say that I am far better at critique-ing writing and plot structure than art, so I guess that doesn't really apply here that much.

F.I.A. - I think you need to ask yourself whether you are mindful of the creation or the audience, when you are drawing. What is your primary motivation? Is it to create the best thing you possibly can out of your vision, regardless of whether people will like it or not, or is it to create the most pleasing and widely-acceptable thing you can, regardless of its quality of vision? Neither choice is wrong. Both paths have been taken to success. (Rembrandt took the former, Shakespeare took the latter... both are famous). There are people of both types in these forums. The choice depends on your personality.

And that choice will affect your actions.

If you choose the former, save and with-hold the juiciest spoilers while getting feedback on specific parts and work on a big splash entrance with something complete for the audience to behold. Have self-confidence in yourself and stay true to your vision. If you choose the latter, release a work-in-progress demo and use your audience to help you polish your creation to be something you know all will like. Gather feedback and reshape your creation to appeal to more and more people.

Are you an Artiste (I create for the sake of my creation) or an Entertainer (I create for the sake of the audience)? Once you know what your work-style is, stick with it and don't look back.

-Dizzy-

EDIT: Changed the advice in the second-last paragraph after my thoughts became clearer.
Last edited by dizzcity on Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A smart man follows the rules, a dumb man breaks them. A great man bends the rules and thus creates them.
Fanfiction.net Profile.
Writer and director of Working Woman (NaNoRenO March 2010)
Writer and director of Wedding Vows (finished 2009).
Creator of Lakeside Sunset (finished 2006).

User avatar
lordcloudx
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1406
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:47 pm
Completed: http://rd2k2-games.blogspot.com

#7 Post by lordcloudx » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:18 pm

Seen this topic on the Haeleth boards. :twisted:
dizzcity wrote:F.I.A. - I think you need to ask yourself whether you are mindful of the creation or the audience, when you are drawing. What is your primary motivation? Is it to create the best thing you possibly can out of your vision, regardless of whether people will like it or not, or is it to create the most pleasing and widely-acceptable thing you can, regardless of its quality of vision? Neither choice is wrong. Both paths have been taken to success. (Rembrandt took the former, Shakespeare took the latter... both are famous). There are people of both types in these forums. The choice depends on your personality.
So true. I for one don't care for any kind of criticism before the entire thing is finished on any work I do whether, in journalism, creative writing or in making a visual novel except from people that I know personally or a project I've abandoned and I'm fishing for some ego boost to continue.

Also, if it's getting stressful for you, then it can't be good unless you're used to getting emotionally involved in your work and actually enjoy it even though it seems outwardly that you're not. For me, just working on a project that I enjoy working on is already a success and the project itself is my motivation to complete it. (Something that someone from haeleth said too, I think.)

Popularity can come now, later, after a few years, or even never. It doesn't always have to matter when the only one you want to satisfy is yourself. Then again, once you feel totally satisfied with something that you have accomplished, then you have nothing left to make.

but my thoughts are getting a tad disorganized to sum it up.
http://animerd2k2.freewebsites.com/awriter.htm

And... if you're looking for some inspiration. Try taking a walk or listening to some music (ones that you like). Although this applies more to journalism, one piece of advice I received from a panelist in my college days was, "You can write about anything under the sun, so if you feel that you have nothing to write about, try taking a walk around town, feel the breeze and pay attention to your surroundings, you might see something from a different perspective that you didn't notice before. " I believe he was right.
How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

User avatar
F.I.A
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:49 pm
Projects: Winter Shard, EVE, Hyperion
Contact:

#8 Post by F.I.A » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:50 pm

Thanks for the feedbacks, folks. I think I am more of the entertainer, that I want the audience to like my work. Since I don't want my game being lackluster thanks to the graphics and such. So that is why I got all stressed up when I cannot get a single comment of other audiences(members of the art forum for example).

Yea, I know some gamer/makers will not mind getting spoiled beforehands, but... let's just say this is rather of me being methotical. Yea, sue me for not giving away any ideas about my work yet. :P
Last edited by F.I.A on Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
「通りすがりのメーカだ。覚えとけ。」

----------
Winter shard
Image
WIP: Hyperion(Trace unknown), ?????(Progressing)

User avatar
Megaman Z
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 829
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Projects: NaNoRenO 2016, Ren'Py tutorial series
Location: USA
Contact:

#9 Post by Megaman Z » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:56 pm

[color=blue]F.I.A[/color] wrote:Yea, sue me not to give away any ideas about my work yet. :P
same with me and my RPG. (Ch. 1 nearing completion, but I'm going to need a character artist for some CG's.)
the extent of what I'm going to say about my RPG is that it will be released in chapters, you'll be able to revisit earlier chapters (but for the effects of changes in earlier chapters to occur, you have to play through ALL the successive chapters. yes, I figured out how to pull THAT off), I'm using RPG Tsukuru XP for it, and the FOUR main female characters (only one of which will make a major appearance in CH. 1) are the elementals from the run-time package that came with the install.
~Kitsune Zeta

User avatar
DaFool
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4171
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:39 pm
Contact:

#10 Post by DaFool » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:05 pm

Yep, more of an entertainer here. Otherwise I'd just make a visual novel starring a bunch of stick figures discussing the laws of thermodynamics. (That and the cute story of a squadron of flourescent panties).

The reveal-some-but-not-all is a good approach.

I personally decided not to release any more demos, as the original demo succeeded in its original purpose of showcasing my skills (for later recruitment in projects), most importantly, getting the hang and work/balance ratio, as well as offloading some art which were too good not to be used but won't really fit in the more overall vision. And I discovered, even in this forum, that THERE ARE EXPECTATIONS for what a visual novel should be / feel like.

I like to replay updated demos, and it rewards me by showing me almost how something was created from scratch. However most of the times I wish I'd just get the full product.

User avatar
monele
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:57 am
Location: France
Contact:

#11 Post by monele » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:42 pm

DaFool wrote:(That and the cute story of a squadron of flourescent panties)
Just reminding you that I'm eagerly waiting for this :) Nyehe~

User avatar
mikey
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:03 am
itch: atpprojects
Contact:

#12 Post by mikey » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 pm

F.I.A. wrote:Thanks for the feedbacks, folks. I think I am more of the entertainer, that I want the audience to like my work. Since I don't want my game being lackluster thanks to the graphics and such. So that is why I got all stressed up when I cannot get a single comment of other audiences(members of the art forum for example).
It's like those fearless warriors - they always say that if you want to be really good, you have to get rid of the fear of death - only then are you free and blah blah. But actually, it's kind of true, if you stop worrying about this and that, you'll be much more focused and in turn this will show in your game.

And as for improvement, why not improve from game to game - not from artwork to artwork or text to text? This is what I like to do, move from project to project, rather than perfecting specific elements. It does make sense in the way that you're making a game. If you were just drawing, drawing a picture, having it critiqued and drawing a new one would make sense. But a game shouldn't be made for its elements, but for the overall effect. Sure, the reviews may pick on specific elements, but that's how people review.
monele wrote:
DaFool wrote:(That and the cute story of a squadron of flourescent panties)
Just reminding you that I'm eagerly waiting for this :) Nyehe~
Me too. Actually, this would be perfect for this forum's mystical Let's Hentai Hentai game project. :P

User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 15443
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

#13 Post by PyTom » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:27 pm

mikey wrote:Me too. Actually, this would be perfect for this forum's mystical Let's Hentai Hentai game project. :P
Mystical? Did we decide to make some of the girls witches?

When I was developing 5.6.2, I kept using "Let's Hentai Hentai" as the name of the project to work on.
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
"Silly and fun things are important." - Elon Musk
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

musical74
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: Oregon
Contact:

#14 Post by musical74 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:52 pm

OK this is from the viewpoint of a gamer...

When I play a game, I look at the total package. Text, graphics, music, plot, etc. I can tell when a game seems *rushed* vs a game took too long in development. The main thing I look for is to be entertained in a game.

If you are getting stressed out...taking a step away from the project, for a few days maybe, really does wonders for it. If I play a demo (such as Magical Bouitque) I always try to give an honest opinion on what works fine and what I think needs work. It gives you an idea on how the gamers view the demo, and then you can say *OK this needs works* or *Throw this idea from the game away* or *OK everyone likes this idea, I'll stick with it* By not commenting on what's right or wrong, you, as the gamemaker, have no idea what to fix, what to flesh out, etc.
A friend is one that walks in when the world walks out.

User avatar
mikey
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:03 am
itch: atpprojects
Contact:

#15 Post by mikey » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:05 am

PyTom >> well, mystical in the sense that no one has seen it, but everyone knows about it ^_^

musical74 >> That's quite true. Ideally, one should review demos very critically, to help the author improve, but then, view the finished game as a whole (and not nitpick) once it's presented as a complete experience.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users