Senior Year Development Thread

[EwanG]

Figured that since my questions are now related to a specific title, I should move my discussion here

What I'm curious about at this point, is what do other authors think is a good time to start getting feedback? I have the splash screen loading, main menu working, let the user type in their name (customization right?), have some personal dialog, let them chat a bit with Linda, take them to the first branch, and then end the game. This also has let me test out some of the music and some of the sound effects.

I'm tempted to try and get someone to look at it already just to see if there are any big mistakes I'm already making, so I don't get halfway through the demo and then have to do a major rewrite. On the other hand, I'm hopeful that at the current rate I can have the demo version (just the school friend) ready for a first look in a couple weeks - which would give folks more of a flavor of the story. Thoughts?

I wanted to add a BIG thank you to the folks in the Resources thread. Found a great collection of music at ccMixter - including one song that was done in two different versions, and that has a sample of the main melody done by various instruments. This allows me to give each character a "theme" that ties together to make a great aural tapestry.

And of course, another BIG thank you to BCS, whose backgrounds and character let me shave off a couple weeks of art creation for this demo version.

FWIW,
Ewan

[mikey]

What I'm curious about at this point, is what do other authors think is a good time to start getting feedback? I have the splash screen loading, main menu working, let the user type in their name (customization right?), have some personal dialog, let them chat a bit with Linda, take them to the first branch, and then end the game. This also has let me test out some of the music and some of the sound effects.

I'm tempted to try and get someone to look at it already just to see if there are any big mistakes I'm already making, so I don't get halfway through the demo and then have to do a major rewrite. On the other hand, I'm hopeful that at the current rate I can have the demo version (just the school friend) ready for a first look in a couple weeks - which would give folks more of a flavor of the story. Thoughts?

I don't think you need to show very early versions. The less there is to show, the less specific the comments can be. I'm even more or less against demos, because it only distracts from the full version. It's often the case that after a demo comes nothing, because the motivation is lost.

My advice is, if you must have comments, put out a reasonable demo. But don't work on a demo, work on the full thing. In other words: work on your script, BGs, and whatever there is, and then fabricate a demo to have feedback on specific issues that you need feedback on - for instance transition effects, or writing style, or music. Maybe you won't need a demo at all.

A demo will temporarily boost your motivation, but if you make a demo your milestone, it will slow down the development process. It's become a habit to have demos and portions of the game presented to show that the project is progressing and harvest some comments, but actually, I think that a complete beta version up for comments is a far better idea than any demo.

EDIT:
Come to think of it, none of the games that have been completed to date have had demo versions.
Consequently, all of the projects having demo versions or aiming to have demo versions are, to date, unfinished.

[EwanG]

Come to think of it, none of the games that have been completed to date have had demo versions.
Consequently, all of the projects having demo versions or aiming to have demo versions are, to date, unfinished.

That makes sense. However, I had gotten the impression that before one shilled for assistance, that one had to have something to show folks to get them energized to work with you. I may need some art (though between BCS' material and the clip art I got over the weekend that may not be as big a deal as I first thought), and I will definately need voice actors (having a bass voice does not lend itself to doing a good female impression).

If you don't have a demo, then what do you normally send those folks? Just what you have so they can see it - i.e. you don't release a formal demo, but give them something to look at?

Thanks,
Ewan

[mikey]

Normally, you will probably need to have the full script working, complete with branches and possibly sketches of locations, in the game engine of your choice.

This art-less version is more or less the base - you have a clear scope for the artist - s/he knows precisely how long the game is (since it's completed in text form) and it's somehow the critical point for the project. It's like you have the wireframe and all that's needed is to make textures. The artist doesn't really need to see art, they only need to know that their work will not be wasted, and with a full script and working engine, you can basically give them that assurance.

This method worked for me internally, and it works for a lot of completed games as well. Since it's the writer's motivation that usually sets back everything, or the inability to transform the text into the engine script for that matter, having a skeleton full-text version and then asking for art and music is the most successful procedure that the community has been able to make.

[Megaman Z]

EDIT:
Come to think of it, none of the games that have been completed to date have had demo versions.
Consequently, all of the projects having demo versions or aiming to have demo versions are, to date, unfinished.

technically, wouldn't the original Recontruction (by Dre) count as a demo?

also, I plan on breaking this trend very shortly...

[mikey]

technically, wouldn't the original Recontruction (by Dre) count as a demo?

Technically, maybe, perhaps... yes. But the Rec01 game was finished as a shorter version in NaNoRenO, AFAIK due to the inability to complete it within the timeframe, so it wasn't meant to be a demo in the sense that most demos are meant. I'm sure had Dre had the time, we'd see a full release straight away. The concept of making something, gathering comments and then finishing the larger leftover part wasn't there.

[DaFool]

EDIT:
Come to think of it, none of the games that have been completed to date have had demo versions.
Consequently, all of the projects having demo versions or aiming to have demo versions are, to date, unfinished.

Haha

Actually, I still advocate making a very reasonable demo, because it really shows the creator the ultimate amount of effort it may take to make a completed game. Its more for the creator, not the audience. Maybe the demo can be a sort of sacrificial guinea pig to collect comments and to show people the strengths and weaknesses of the creator.

It worked for me...because of my demo people have had enough confidence in recruiting me (I'm on my second such project).

But that statement is also true. My own project, though within the same universe, is going to be so far removed from the demo, due to the lessons I gained during its production and feedback.

[mikey]

... because it really shows the creator the ultimate amount of effort it may take to make a completed game. Its more for the creator, not the audience. Maybe the demo can be a sort of sacrificial guinea pig to collect comments ...

The trouble is a lot of people never go beyond that unfinished demo. Usually, it just discourages them. In a way though, it makes a lot of sense to let everyone learn their lessons their way and not talk them out of making demos. But then, we're back to the significance of a small project - if it has to be a guinea pig, then let it at least be a completed one. See Host Love.

Oh well, problems problems. You see, in my native language, the word "game" is of the female gender. It may explain why things get complicated once you start being involved with them. ^_^

[DaFool]

It also depends on the type of project. Yours seems to be a conventional multibranch VN.

The more rpg/dating-sim like you go, the more response you'll get from a demo, just discussing the possibilities.

But the more kinetic-novel like your project, people tend to become quiet as they just wait for more content.

Suffice to say I'm not releasing demos anymore since I'm a kinetic-novel kind of person.

[EwanG]

The more rpg/dating-sim like you go, the more response you'll get from a demo, just discussing the possibilities

Well, that brings up another question I've been pondering. Part of me is interested in making this a full blown eroge, while another part of me thinks I should stop at being just romantic, and leave the sex more to the imagination.

For the sake of the story, the only character I think would be somewhat diminshed by not having the sex scenes included would be Annette (the artist). For the rest of them, I see it more as icing on the cake. I would think that staying just romantic might make it easier to get help with the art and voice acting, but I wonder if I'm going to lose much of an audience by producing something that's more PG-13?

[DaFool]

Hmmm, the eroge question

It's a possibility for me because I can just draw the scenes myself (and I draw better when I'm horny )

But this seriously already calls in the question drawing skills since the stakes have to be all stacked up upon the visual element.

In your case, you said you require

- an artist to draw
- voice acting

Seriously, good luck if you can get people to sign up, with them knowing its an eroge. Because I think it might get hard. So keep it tame at first, but with the option to open up possibilities when you see a way to achieve them.

[EwanG]

As I said, that's why I have kind of mixed emotions about going that route. If I keep it to just being a romantic VN, then I can probably do most of the art myself, and I suspect it will be easier to get help for the voice acting.

On the other hand, one line of the story is then a bit (not a lot though) weaker, and I'm wondering if there will be as much of an audience?

Thanks,
Ewan

[mikey]

Because I think it might get hard.

Well, you said it yourself in the brackets, ne?

Alright, jokes aside - I'm all for erotic content, and if you can't find a direct way of including sex, why not work around it? Maybe implied sex or just hints, or no visuals. Depends heavily on what your game requires, but if you're thinking abut a non-erotic version, then it seems that sex is not absolutely essential - therefore tricks and such may be the answer.

[DaFool]

I already explored the question of audience in haeleth forums. And haeleth / animesuki people are the only respectable eroge audience I know. I won't bother with newgrounds or 4ch or even hongfire, where most eroge players reside.

The general gist of it is that most eroge players won't bother touching an OEL release. Because an OEL VN will never be Japanese enough, so don't even bother trying. Just make it the best British / Czech etc. OEL VN it can be. VNs are already a niche, all the more OEL VNs.

So you do not have to worry about the audience thing.

[mikey]

The general gist of it is that most eroge players won't bother touching an OEL release. Because an OEL VN will never be Japanese enough, so don't even bother trying. Just make it the best British / Czech etc. OEL VN it can be. VNs are already a niche, all the more OEL VNs.

It's something I was trying to somehow solve in that long post somewhere in the renpy section - indeed the Japanese-centered communities will paradoxically react colder than you'd expect/predict. So maybe an interesting audience would really be the unsuspecting normal adult person (casual gamer) who is wiling to try something new, such as the Facade game.

And I think it's the right way not to try to impress those who won't be, instead make happy the fans who are willing to support you.