Okay I come from a writing and tabletop roleplaying direction into this wonderful world of interactive fiction writing.
(pointless background information)
I've probebly played with various forms of IF for ten or so years from the books where you pick different choices that take you to different page numbers, to text adventures and interactive movies (phantasmagoria). I proberbly started reading/playing Ren'ai and Visual Novels about 3 years ago and around a year ago my last roleplaying party split up and went its seperate ways and I sat down and wrote a story or two.
Slowly two problems dawned on me, a) most of the visual novels I played were samey and unsatisfying, sure some were great but I sensed much untapped potential.
b) I was annoyed at the lack of choice and interaction there was to a traditional piece of fiction.
Of course this is ontop of my general disatisfaction with games in general.
These two didn't really click together until I played ever 17 and I suddenly thought "Wow that was a really brilliant story..." and more then that it was just a story.
(end of pointless background information)
Anyway as a result I sat down and started investigating ways of writing something VN and I took out a manuscript I had for my best story Progressive Reality Third times the charm if you're bored.
The central premis is that reality is based on mass perception, the perspecitve swaps between the various characters with a particular focus on Uli and Joshua.
The story itself is split into five chapters and each chapter has between 15 and 35 scenes.
So general question, what are your thoughts on converting a piece of linear fiction to interactive fiction? How would you set about adding choice and paths? I can think of lots of examples of vn -> anime/manga but not many in the other direction.
As a side note I'm not considering this as a first attempt lol, it's 50,000 words worth that would be silly. No I'm gonna write a some very short pieces first, but still I want to get fleshing the idea of converting written novels to interacitve fiction in my mind.
Sorry for rambling ;c) any thoughts are welcome *nods, bounds off*
/edit faffed with the link
From Fiction to Interactive Fiction
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From Fiction to Interactive Fiction
Last edited by Matt_D on Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Um, I get "No downloads in this category yet".
50K words is really not a lot. At 1000words/5min, that's just about 4 hours worth, and that's slow reading.
The important thing is that you have a working engine and standard formatting. Once you have that and keep things modular, then expanding to 50,000 words should be no problem, as long as you don't expect the art to arrive anytime soon.
One way to convert linear to nonlinear is through parallel paths. Identify the important key events, separate those for mainline. Then for the rest, determine which can occur simultaneously on parallel timelines. Once you've grouped them, then insert the parallel groups chronologically into the mainline.
Nanoha rules, btw.
50K words is really not a lot. At 1000words/5min, that's just about 4 hours worth, and that's slow reading.
The important thing is that you have a working engine and standard formatting. Once you have that and keep things modular, then expanding to 50,000 words should be no problem, as long as you don't expect the art to arrive anytime soon.
One way to convert linear to nonlinear is through parallel paths. Identify the important key events, separate those for mainline. Then for the rest, determine which can occur simultaneously on parallel timelines. Once you've grouped them, then insert the parallel groups chronologically into the mainline.
Nanoha rules, btw.
changed the download link. Silly security features. The actual story is getting slammed through a second round of editing so I thought it would be good to think about both things at the same time.
And yeah the issue when it comes to the word count is more translating from third person limited omniponent to either 1st person or 2nd person. Once cut across it would be easy to really fill it out with conversation. The real problem is that it's quite a complicated story and not the kind of thing I'd want to try as my first attempt.
Yeah art is the bit that'll take an age, but hey that's life, another reason I'm not going streight for the crystal, I need to run around some fields and jump over some hedges and do a barrel roll to get there first.
p.s. yeah nanoha does rule muchly
p.p.s. cheers for the thoughts
And yeah the issue when it comes to the word count is more translating from third person limited omniponent to either 1st person or 2nd person. Once cut across it would be easy to really fill it out with conversation. The real problem is that it's quite a complicated story and not the kind of thing I'd want to try as my first attempt.
Yeah art is the bit that'll take an age, but hey that's life, another reason I'm not going streight for the crystal, I need to run around some fields and jump over some hedges and do a barrel roll to get there first.
p.s. yeah nanoha does rule muchly
p.p.s. cheers for the thoughts
Got the story, thanks.
I only realized that recently when I was talking to my mother this past weekend over the phone. She is close to retirement age and had long dreamed about writing a semi-autobiographical work of fiction but doubted any publisher would even care since she didn't have a track record. She learned of my hobbies with visual novels and wondered if she could write something which can be turned into a visual novel. She asked if she needed to write in screenplay since she tended to write in prose. We thought about it, then I concluded, "Actually, it shouldn't really matter. Just write as you can write. The feeling will be preserved."
I'll let you know my general impressions once I've read the whole thing. But the important thing is that its a complete piece of writing and can immediately be used. If you were thinking of making some practice stories for demos, that's all fine, but it might be easier to go back to using this as your first project since the writing is already complete rather than finding the motivation to continue the story you wrote originally for practice purposes.
Well, as opposed to writers looking for artists, I guess I'm more of an artist looking for writers, so my perspective may be different. I don't think you really need to change the style of writing to fit a VN. Instead, just customize the engine to fit your style of writing. I think you can use kana mode (full screen NVL style like Fate Stay Night and Kana Little Sister) and just drop the words verbatim. Heck, I don't think you'll even need to remove the "He said, She said". People will say narration is redundant and you shouldn't be writing in prose, but fact is not many people are writing visual novels anyway -- it's not like it's an industry in the west with head honcho editors. The most important aspect is writing. Rather than risk changing the feeling through a rework of perspectives, try to preserve the original feeling when you wrote it and instead use the VN medium to enhance that feeling.And yeah the issue when it comes to the word count is more translating from third person limited omniponent to either 1st person or 2nd person. Once cut across it would be easy to really fill it out with conversation. The real problem is that it's quite a complicated story and not the kind of thing I'd want to try as my first attempt.
I only realized that recently when I was talking to my mother this past weekend over the phone. She is close to retirement age and had long dreamed about writing a semi-autobiographical work of fiction but doubted any publisher would even care since she didn't have a track record. She learned of my hobbies with visual novels and wondered if she could write something which can be turned into a visual novel. She asked if she needed to write in screenplay since she tended to write in prose. We thought about it, then I concluded, "Actually, it shouldn't really matter. Just write as you can write. The feeling will be preserved."
I'll let you know my general impressions once I've read the whole thing. But the important thing is that its a complete piece of writing and can immediately be used. If you were thinking of making some practice stories for demos, that's all fine, but it might be easier to go back to using this as your first project since the writing is already complete rather than finding the motivation to continue the story you wrote originally for practice purposes.
Those are actually some really good points, I'd been invisioning using the whole screen novel style for sections of it between dialogue and the like. I've been starting to think that the Visual Novel is a mechanism waiting for a channel. People don't like reading books online but they don't seem to mind the visual novel I suppose it has to do with the fonts, visual and audio ques.
Back to the story I've been thinking about, seen as it's now in its second edit I'm targeting particular problems with it such as when I first wrote it I got stuck around the middle and had to rush towards more interesting parts or else I'd have gotten bogged down. So I need to go back and flesh out things I had to rush past. So it's an apt time to start thinking about putting it into a new media format.
Also again with no track record there was little hope of getting my stories out to people, and what's the point in a story nobodies read? Even if it isn't a very good story it's still a shame if they don't get read. So my enjoyment of Visual Novels and their relative infancy in the west may give an avenue to get the stories seen.
The more I think about it the more I think I should stick with Progressive Reality.
Cheers again, you've given me a lot to think about, time to get the UML tools out ;c) and wait to get my edit back from my grammer mad friend.
Back to the story I've been thinking about, seen as it's now in its second edit I'm targeting particular problems with it such as when I first wrote it I got stuck around the middle and had to rush towards more interesting parts or else I'd have gotten bogged down. So I need to go back and flesh out things I had to rush past. So it's an apt time to start thinking about putting it into a new media format.
Also again with no track record there was little hope of getting my stories out to people, and what's the point in a story nobodies read? Even if it isn't a very good story it's still a shame if they don't get read. So my enjoyment of Visual Novels and their relative infancy in the west may give an avenue to get the stories seen.
The more I think about it the more I think I should stick with Progressive Reality.
Cheers again, you've given me a lot to think about, time to get the UML tools out ;c) and wait to get my edit back from my grammer mad friend.
I played one, it was Cresendo, it was _really_ good. It was a bit odd at first but you settled into the story after a little while. However it had brilliant art and voice acting too.
I suppose at the end of the day it would be about execution, I think it would have to be better then stock becouse it was doing something a different way. As long as you engage with the characters that's the important thing. If you don't care about them then the perspective and tense become pretty meaningless.
It really is about execution I suppose. I think it would be harder to get right in third person, but would it be more disasterous to try and go from third to first. It defenetly brings up some interesting thoughts about the authoritive voice.
I suppose at the end of the day it would be about execution, I think it would have to be better then stock becouse it was doing something a different way. As long as you engage with the characters that's the important thing. If you don't care about them then the perspective and tense become pretty meaningless.
It really is about execution I suppose. I think it would be harder to get right in third person, but would it be more disasterous to try and go from third to first. It defenetly brings up some interesting thoughts about the authoritive voice.
Yup, anything is doable, as long as the execution makes sense.I'm actually very curious about seeing a third person VN. I just wonder wether it is feasible or not... (probably yes) and wether it would feel all right or not (that's the big question).
One thing's for sure: the character sprites better not be looking straight ahead (at You, the Player), but instead at each other, just like a movie.
Speaking of whole screen NVL mode, that pretty much cements that you'd be using Ren'Py, as I've seen you around the Blade Engine forums --- unless the BE 2.0 upcoming release surprises us all with super enhanced capabilities.
Hmm... actually, I now realize I've seen this already : Phantom Brave/Makai Kingdom and Super Robot Taisen. It just didn't bother me at all, so yea, it works. After all, these games have you controlling a whole team, while usually giving you an avatar to feel more part of the team... but it's still 3rd person.One thing's for sure: the character sprites better not be looking straight ahead (at You, the Player), but instead at each other, just like a movie.
That's a concept I'll have to try someday ^^
*ponders* I suppose that it depends on the pov if you're working in third person limited (e.g. third person but written from the point of view of being inside a single characters head) then it would be reasonable for characters to refer directly to the reader.
Thinking about it Progressive Reality was mostly written in Third Person Limited omniscient (you only have access to one brain per scene) there are moments of narrative voice and some seens that are done in third person, objective (no access to anybodies brain.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_pers ... omniscient
So there would be times where it would be completly reasonable for the characters to refer to the reador directly.
As third person omniscient is widely seen as a bad tool becouse the reader can get confused with all the perspecitve shifting.
The most movie like would be 3rd person objective becouse you only know what you can see and imply from actions and conversation.
Narrative theory, gotta love it.
Thinking about it Progressive Reality was mostly written in Third Person Limited omniscient (you only have access to one brain per scene) there are moments of narrative voice and some seens that are done in third person, objective (no access to anybodies brain.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_pers ... omniscient
So there would be times where it would be completly reasonable for the characters to refer to the reador directly.
As third person omniscient is widely seen as a bad tool becouse the reader can get confused with all the perspecitve shifting.
The most movie like would be 3rd person objective becouse you only know what you can see and imply from actions and conversation.
Narrative theory, gotta love it.
*twirls a pen* it's an interesting narrative idea, partly explored in same heart I think, the choices made as one character effect other stuff (It's on my list of games to finish playing, to much time was spent on ever and now I'm in imaginative space instead of playing space)
And actually seen as PR flips between main characters in the story it would be pretty easy to see a situation where the choices made as character A have a direct impact on the situations presented to character B
It's a pretty cool way to do a piece of fiction, narrative chains instead of normal paths.
And actually seen as PR flips between main characters in the story it would be pretty easy to see a situation where the choices made as character A have a direct impact on the situations presented to character B
It's a pretty cool way to do a piece of fiction, narrative chains instead of normal paths.
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.... Actually I find it much easier to read straight fiction on the computer screen than VNs. I read huge amounts of fanfic, but I have to take visual novels in little bursts and chunks because my eyes get so tired.People don't like reading books online but they don't seem to mind the visual novel I suppose it has to do with the fonts, visual and audio ques
Especially because:
1. Most games won't let you adjust the font style, color, size, etc.
2. Most games will not let you resize the text window to wrap the text wider or narrower - something that's easy to do if you're reading a story in a web browser. I find a lot of the default games here make the text display _too wide_ and there's nothing I can do about it.
3. Either you have to keep clicking and clicking and clicking and clicking into exhaustion, or you have to turn on auto-play and remember to keep paying attention. And you do have to *pay attention*, you can't just relax, because even the professional games don't have clear quality English voiceovers.
Adventure gamers complain a lot about 'too much reading' in games, even though reading is a large part of the POINT... and they're very cranky about games without full voice acting. Which is going to be a problem for me when Fatal Hearts comes out, because I don't think I can manage to get it voiced.
Those are pretty interesting points and actually echo some of my (although not before realised) irritation with most of the engines out there.
1) I'm quite lucky when it comes to fonts as generally the defaults in visual novels are more suitable too me (I have real issue with screen white backgrounds for any length of time I have to keep moving my eyes about to stop things vanishing.) But the text changing element would be nice to provide the reader choice.
2) It's a real pain from a writer perspective having to format the text to fit an x by y box. It'd be far nicer if the parser pulled text into the box based on how big it was. However most of the engines are still better then typing.
printf "\"yadda\n\"";
although it looks like Ren'py needs escaping.
linked with one I suppose really as if you could change the size of the font then obviously the text box would need to be able to cope with that change.
3) That's less of a pain if you're doing whole screen text. *spins pen* But yeah often I've come away from a game thinkng "darn my hand hurts ¬.¬."
However in general people don't like reading on the pc for any length in the office here people will always print off documents to read (and they're all techies) my old dear can't read on a PC for any length of time and neither can most of the people I know, they'd much rather print it off. I know when I'm editing I can't edit on the pc as I'm forever missing things.
But at the same time some people don't have a problem with it.
Having come from the dark and distant world of fighting fantasy and AD&D alongside Zork and leather goddess of phobos I don't mind reading lol. Also I hate western dubs they make me want to grind my head into shreader of some description. I can't play Star Ocean or Final Fantasy anymore becouse I just want to throw my coffee cup through the TV.
However I think I'm best suited to aiming at people who wanted to read. Maybe put up a big warning at the start that says "Includes lots of words, you have been warned ;c)"
But they're interesting points from a structural perspective, having points where a reader can happily save are proberbly important. Defenate lulls in the story where you can think "Right, I'll go cook dinner, watch an episode of stargate then get back to it."
hmmm
1) I'm quite lucky when it comes to fonts as generally the defaults in visual novels are more suitable too me (I have real issue with screen white backgrounds for any length of time I have to keep moving my eyes about to stop things vanishing.) But the text changing element would be nice to provide the reader choice.
2) It's a real pain from a writer perspective having to format the text to fit an x by y box. It'd be far nicer if the parser pulled text into the box based on how big it was. However most of the engines are still better then typing.
printf "\"yadda\n\"";
although it looks like Ren'py needs escaping.
linked with one I suppose really as if you could change the size of the font then obviously the text box would need to be able to cope with that change.
3) That's less of a pain if you're doing whole screen text. *spins pen* But yeah often I've come away from a game thinkng "darn my hand hurts ¬.¬."
However in general people don't like reading on the pc for any length in the office here people will always print off documents to read (and they're all techies) my old dear can't read on a PC for any length of time and neither can most of the people I know, they'd much rather print it off. I know when I'm editing I can't edit on the pc as I'm forever missing things.
But at the same time some people don't have a problem with it.
Having come from the dark and distant world of fighting fantasy and AD&D alongside Zork and leather goddess of phobos I don't mind reading lol. Also I hate western dubs they make me want to grind my head into shreader of some description. I can't play Star Ocean or Final Fantasy anymore becouse I just want to throw my coffee cup through the TV.
However I think I'm best suited to aiming at people who wanted to read. Maybe put up a big warning at the start that says "Includes lots of words, you have been warned ;c)"
But they're interesting points from a structural perspective, having points where a reader can happily save are proberbly important. Defenate lulls in the story where you can think "Right, I'll go cook dinner, watch an episode of stargate then get back to it."
hmmm
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