Abbreviations used here

[Taosym]

Again, while they may not be *right*, there are people who believe the terms mean this, so one needs to be careful.

I've never met an English-speaker who used shoujo-ai or shounen-ai to mean young stuff but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, and there most certainly ARE people who will use yaoi and yuri to mean soft stuff rather than explicit.

People should not be trying to invent definitions to preexisting words.

Welcome to the English language. For my next act, I will talk about what makes a "visual novel" and what makes an "indie game". (ducks and runs)

More like Doujin and Indie, because you can have Visual Novels made by professional companies. Or small scale Doujin groups. Doujin and Indie are very similar in their uses. Because ideally you want to translate the meaning of the word to be most accurate.

Obviously the problem lies in they didn't know any better and no one corrected them, so they continued to spread this misinformation until it became common knowledge. But that doesn't make it now correct. And now, if they ever wanted to go beyond gaiaonline in learning Japanese, they will have severe problems understanding people in their fandom.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Welcome to the English language. For my next act, I will talk about what makes a "visual novel" and what makes an "indie game". (ducks and runs)

Not just English, but language in general. In fact all symbols are total abstractions that only have the meaning which we give it, which is up to the individual and the understanding of the group. Through memes, we come to understand as a group what certain symbols mean. These meaning though are entirely fluid and can vary from group to group. They only exist in our heads. You only have to look at the swastika. Once it was appropriated by the Nazis, it's meaning was changed for a great deal of the world, probably forever. You can't say one thing will always mean one thing or that it will mean the one thing for everyone. The best you can do is know the appropriate lexicon of the group and to understand that there may be different interpretations. Sometimes clarification of words might be needed to create context for the way you are using the word verse how other people might use the word.

[papillon]

Welcome to the English language. For my next act, I will talk about what makes a "visual novel" and what makes an "indie game". (ducks and runs)

More like Doujin and Indie, because you can have Visual Novels made by professional companies. Or small scale Doujin groups. Doujin and Indie are very similar in their uses. Because ideally you want to translate the meaning of the word to be most accurate.

You're totally missing my point. There is great disagreement on what exactly constitutes a visual novel - I know you've seen some of the arguments in the 4chan thread.

And there is huge disagreement over what "indie" means in game-making, so much so that even mentioning the definition of indie is considered flamebait in many circles

[Taosym]

Welcome to the English language. For my next act, I will talk about what makes a "visual novel" and what makes an "indie game". (ducks and runs)

More like Doujin and Indie, because you can have Visual Novels made by professional companies. Or small scale Doujin groups. Doujin and Indie are very similar in their uses. Because ideally you want to translate the meaning of the word to be most accurate.

You're totally missing my point. There is great disagreement on what exactly constitutes a visual novel - I know you've seen some of the arguments in the 4chan thread.

And there is huge disagreement over what "indie" means in game-making, so much so that even mentioning the definition of indie is considered flamebait in many circles

English is so needlessly complicated sometimes but I agree. Same thing with Indie. But usually reasonable people can picture what an Indie game might be, or a Visual Novel might be. Hell a lot of people still think Doujinshi = Porn Manga. But I don't think the ambiguity around the VN definition can lead to misunderstandings between two people like Doujinshi might.

[papillon]

But usually reasonable people can picture what an Indie game might be

Not really. See the usual controversy over who should be allowed to submit to the IGF. It gets everything from things like this to things like this.

Many average outsiders, asked to picture an indie game, will come up with "an artistic retro platformer" which has nothing to do with the older semi-official definitions of "anyone not funded by a publisher, no matter what the genre or budget", but is becoming so prevalent that many people who meet the old definition are now reluctant to use it because they don't want to be mixed up with the other kind. Anyway, we're getting off-topic, I'm just trying to explain that terminology is regularly confusing and simply pointing to a dictionary doesn't solve things.

[Taosym]

But usually reasonable people can picture what an Indie game might be

Not really. See the usual controversy over who should be allowed to submit to the IGF. It gets everything from things like this to things like this.

Many average outsiders, asked to picture an indie game, will come up with "an artistic retro platformer" which has nothing to do with the older semi-official definitions of "anyone not funded by a publisher, no matter what the genre or budget", but is becoming so prevalent that many people who meet the old definition are now reluctant to use it because they don't want to be mixed up with the other kind. Anyway, we're getting off-topic, I'm just trying to explain that terminology is regularly confusing and simply pointing to a dictionary doesn't solve things.

I see, I can see where that might be a problem.

These sort of things lack outright dictionary definitions. Especially the omnipresent confusion of what 萌え means. Western communities try to make their own definition, which might be fine, considering the physical and communication barrier between the west and Japan. Until you try to integrate or work with Japanese media or Japanese fans. Where your misuse of definitions might cause real misunderstandings. Like Katawa Shoujo.