Premature endings - aka game overs?

[teacup]

I'm really sorry if there's already a thread like this, if there is I coudn't find it. >_<
I just want to know what you guys think about visual novels where it's possible for the protagonist (aka you) to die in the game. I'm not talking about bad endings that are worth pursuing, but endings that are the result of you making bad decisions. In other words, endings that punish the player for making (obviously) bad choices.
One of my projects is fairly choice heavy and it is possible to die in the first day of the game. You'd have to make incredibly foolish decisions for this to happen, but it is possible.
The game takes place in a pretty dangerous future, when violence is a normal (though not acceptable) way of dealing with problems and there are a lot of shady people you shouldn't mess with. If you decide to pursue a thief who you saw commit a crime, and then threaten him, he'll kill you. Like I said, this happens in the first day of the game. The reason I've included these kinds of endings is to make the player more aware of how important their choices are and how dangerous the in-game world is.
I'm just wondering how frustrated it might make you if you get killed so soon in the game and if I should even include these kinds of endings at all?

[lepapillonrouge]

Well if you're going to do that, I think you should make the highlight this whole 'you can die at any time' thing with the setting. Or just not make it surprise. A lot of people get really pissed off if they're playing a game and then they suddenly die, unless the creator specifically mentions that will happen (i.e. Long Live the Queen - and due to the art a lot of girls were thrown off.)

I think it's a good concept. You're inevitably going to piss off a lot of people (mostly fangirls who are used to having their happy endings), but if you can pull it off, it might be interesting.
I think to make it work, you might have to make it moderately hard to live. So people are more determined to get that ending. If it's extremely hard, people will give up, and if it's too easy, well...it's too easy |Dc

[Darkmoonfire]

I think that one of the most important things about premature game overs is that they happen in a logical manner and that the player has a chance to figure out the consequences before making the choice. For example, it would be really frustrating if you're given the choice to go left or right with no information about what's in each direction, and going one way kills you immediately. Because this choice is essentially random, there's no way for the player to predict the consequences of their actions. On the other hand, the situation you described is one that the player should be able to logically figure out in advance when making the choice, or at the very least they'd be able to realize why their action was a mistake in retrospect.

[redeyesblackpanda]

I'd say the most important thing for those games is to include a "previous choice" option.
I rather like those ones where there's no clear answer, and so you end up guessing. It adds to tension, since things like that do happen in real life.

That being said, dying and restarting does have a way of throwing you out of the immersion, although it has been worked into stories before, so it's not necessarily impossible.

I suppose there's no clear answer, other than "Do what you want!"

[Arelune]

Showing how dangerous the world is seems like a good reason to me. But at least make the endings somewhat elaborated, interesting.
Not just: You died. The end!

You could show a brief struggle where it's unsure whether you'll live or die, and then... gutted! You blow your last breath contemplating what your friends will think.

I don't like boring bad ends.

[teacup]

The way I have it now, the choices don't seem random to me - but I'd like your opinions too.
Here's how it goes currently:
-You see a thief steal from the marketplace. You can either tell the merchant that his goods were stolen, or follow the thief yourself.
-You follow and confront the thief. After some (hostile) conversation, the thief looks like he's going to draw a weapon. You can either back down and tell him you don't want to fight him (which will save you), or you can threaten him further.
-You threaten him. At this point, the thief attacks you. There's a timed choice here (all of the in-battle choices are timed). You can either block or dodge him, which will allow you to live. You have five seconds. If you don't choose one of the options within the time limit, he'll pin you on the ground and slit your throat. Then you get returned to the title screen (should I include a game over screen first? I mean, I think it's kind of obvious you died, I don't want to rub it in your face or anything xD)
Basically, you get three opportunities to save yoruself. I honestly feel that if you follow the choices I listed above, you're basically asking for trouble. It's also mentioned to you several times before you go to the marketplace to keep your guard up and not get into trouble. xD
So how does that sound to you guys?

I'd say the most important thing for those games is to include a "previous choice" option.

That's a good idea! So instead of returning the player to the title screen after they die, maybe I should have a menu that asks if they want to go back to the previous choice or quit.

Showing how dangerous the world is seems like a good reason to me. But at least make the endings somewhat elaborated, interesting.
Not just: You died. The end!

You could show a brief struggle where it's unsure whether you'll live or die, and then... gutted! You blow your last breath contemplating what your friends will think.

I don't like boring bad ends.

Hmm, well I don't really know how to elaborate on an ending where you get killed because of your own decisions. ^^; There is a brief exchange before you get killed, but it's pretty, well, brief. Does that seem okay, or is that boring to you?

[Showsni]

I really like how it's handled in Fate Stay Night. Here, when you die you get sent to a room called the Tiger Dojo, where the characters discuss what you did wrong in humorous ways, and what you should have done. Makes you want to actually go out and collect all the bad endings!

Eg here's the first one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn7v7vckNR0

Provided it's made apparent this is the kind of game you can die from the start, and you allow frequent saving, I'm fine with game overs being peppered everywhere. I tend to save before every chocie anyway.

[nyaatrap]

What piss off players is the repetition of the same event more than a bad end. If a bad end makes a point where it leads the bad end clear, and a (wise) player can avoid the same bad end in the 2nd play, it's ok isn't it?

[gekiganwing]

You don't want your visual novel to be like a pen-and-paper RPG with a sadistic game master. There's a lot of fan lore about game masters who kill off player characters for petty reasons, sometimes with no warning.

There's a timed choice here (all of the in-battle choices are timed). You can either block or dodge him, which will allow you to live. You have five seconds. If you don't choose one of the options within the time limit, he'll pin you on the ground and slit your throat.

Timed choices are another, separate topic. I don't want to get too sidetracked here, but please keep in mind that timed choices can be frustrating. (Three examples. In Sakura Wars 5, none of the timed events lead to instant death... but I felt that sometimes the player was given too many of them, sometimes with only a slight hint of what to do to succeed. In Love Hina Advance, sometimes I felt like I had to guess blindly in a hurry, and the main character could lose health points. Finally, one major problem with Yo-Jin-Bo was that the main character's choices could lead -- without warning -- to a point where all possible decisions lead to death. Since there were few untimed choices, it was frustrating.)

(should I include a game over screen first? I mean, I think it's kind of obvious you died, I don't want to rub it in your face or anything xD)

I don't know that much about Tsukihime or Fate/Stay Night. But according to what I've read, something like this happens in both VNs. It sounds like "Teach Me Ciel-Sensei" and "Tiger Dojo" scenes occur after a bad ending involving premature death, and are used as a sometimes-humorous hint corner. Other people probably know way more than I do about them...

Basically, you get three opportunities to save yoruself. I honestly feel that if you follow the choices I listed above, you're basically asking for trouble. It's also mentioned to you several times before you go to the marketplace to keep your guard up and not get into trouble.

If you include premature endings, then I think they should be thematically appropriate. For instance, permanent death endings make the most sense if both the player and the main character know they are in a situation where death is a strong possibility. If the main character is given a strong warning, and the player chooses to go against that warning, then perhaps the MC will have to suffer the consequences.

Think about what sort of message you want to convey in your visual novel. Do you want to create a story in which people are rewarded for being cautious? Do you intend to give rewards to your characters for taking risks? Neither of the above?

Finally, you might benefit by looking to other types of media for inspiration. For instance, "have a nice death" endings were common in graphic and text adventure games, but show up in all sort of places.

[KimiYoriBaka]

I think bad ends are one of things that really affects the feel of a story. While I don't know the precedent for bad ends in gxb games, as all the ones I've played with lots of bad ends were bxg, but I've found that bad ends can either be used for comic effect of for making the overall plot seem darker.

Basically, you get three opportunities to save yoruself. I honestly feel that if you follow the choices I listed above, you're basically asking for trouble. It's also mentioned to you several times before you go to the marketplace to keep your guard up and not get into trouble. xD

I think here you're trying too hard to be nice. if your main character is confronting a thief without the proper means to defend herself you can go ahead and kill her off. if you really don't want to frustrate the player just stick with the previous choice idea, possibly with a brief note from the main character of "wait, this could be dangerous. maybe I should re-consider"

the most important thing is just to make sure your bad endings are each different, so the player doesn't just get the same ending over and over.

Here, when you die you get sent to a room called the Tiger Dojo, where the characters discuss what you did wrong in humorous ways, and what you should have done. Makes you want to actually go out and collect all the bad endings!

it might also be worth noting that in f/sn they added extra content for getting each instance of the Tiger Dojo (total was 40 I think), and even threw in a mini-plot for the characters that advise the player. one of the bad endings woth the tiger dojo was even fake (a dream sequence).

[Anna]

I think what you're doing is fine (except for the timed choice, but that's more personal preference), but I think you need to be careful with the knowledge you assume.

For you it may be obvious that this is a no-go, because you know your character is weak and society is harsh and that's the point of the game, but others may not. You have to make the character's abilities and setting at least somewhat clear before people can properly decide what to do with them and not feel cheated or angry afterwards.

[yukipon]

Since everyone gave their opinions on bad endings, I'll just tell you examples of Bad Ends that I remember from the VN's I've played.

11eyes (Lass): In this VN, the majority of the decisions that you face during the transitions into the Red World typically amount to, "Pick the right decision or die," with scene(s) that show Kakeru's attempts to follow through with that decision, but ultimately fails. There were a few that you could kind of guess at, but it was largely left to guessing.

Chaos;Head (Nitro+): In this VN, there are really only two bad endings (this is mainly for the first playthrough). Since the VN plays around with Takumi's perceptions of the world and the people around him, it's not exactly clear which or what will lead to a bad end. By the time you reach the decision where Takumi will actually die, you're not exactly sure if it will lead to his death or if it's really just in his head. The other Bad End appears when the player messes up on a series of choices at the end.

Shikkoku no Sharnoth (Liar-Soft): In this VN, as far as I know, all the Bad Ends are a result of Mary getting caught by the Metacreatures during the minigame. There are no decision points (as far as I know).

Aoishiro (Success): The Bad Ends come largely as a result of decisions made earlier that force the player to enter a particular chain of events. In my first playthrough, all the decisions I made earlier cemented the fact that Syouko was going to die, Nami was going to die, or the great evil would be unwittingly unleashed (in three different ways). Of course, in order to experience the full story, you had to replay it several times as new decisions would appear along with new Bad Ends (I think). Some of the decisions were sort of trial-and-error-ish, but they were kind of obvious, if you really thought it through.

Others have already mentioned Fate/Stay Night, so I won't go into detail here.

Out of all them, the Bad Ends in 11eyes annoyed me because it became a series of trial-and-error decisions; I even kept a count on how many decisions it took before I accidentally picked the wrong one and died. In Aoishiro, it was really annoying being forced to choose one or the other, but I like Success, so bias~. ^.^

My opinion on Bad Ends is this: Write your Bad Ends so that the player discovers something new that he/she would not have otherwise known. And, unless you plan to play the psychological horror angle that Chaos;Head did, make your Bad Ends obvious. Nothing is as frustrating as picking a decision point blindly, thinking that it's right logically, only to find it was wrong because the game left out a "certain" detail the player would only have known after the fact. Or unknowingly die because you didn't think it would kill him/her.

[Arelune]

Hmm, well I don't really know how to elaborate on an ending where you get killed because of your own decisions. ^^; There is a brief exchange before you get killed, but it's pretty, well, brief. Does that seem okay, or is that boring to you?

Write the scene as if it's just a scene like any other. I've played a lot of games that go into details with its scenes, but when you make a bad decision they just can't seem to be bothered with it. No more nice writing, just 'he fell on a stick and died.' You can say so much more than that. You can begin with how he felt it pierce it body and punctered his lung. His horror at seeing his friends tearstricked faces...And other things. You can get as gory as you want.
The way he dies does affect how elaborate you can get. You won't live long after a headshot wound, but drowning takes a while.
As for slitting the throat, it depends on how experienced the person is and what part they slit.

The way I have it now, the choices don't seem random to me - but I'd like your opinions too.
Here's how it goes currently:
...

What you wrote seems fine to me, as long as you character is strong or agile enough to block/dodge. If it would be me, I'd probably be dead anyway.

Write your Bad Ends so that the player discovers something new that he/she would not have otherwise known.

I like that, but that can't really be done when it's just a quick dying ending.