Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

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TrickWithAKnife
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Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#1 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:58 pm

I think there is already a decent number of people who are aware of this game.
The download link is at the bottom of this post. Even at this early stage the game has 19376 words, 2473 screens and 69 menus.

The idea is to find an enjoyable way to teach people how to enjoy staying in Japan, and to also teach some Japanese. The amount of Japanese the player will be taught will depend on how interested they are in learning the language, but I'm hoping to have at least 2,000 words along with a lot of practicing and grammar in the final version for the players that do choose in game to learn Japanese.

This game is likely to be in development for a while, but I want to update sometimes so everyone can see how things are progressing.

Anyway, here is the first very rough demo for you guys to check out.
There are some things to keep in mind:
  • None of the visuals are going to be in the final game. They are place-holders. Feel free to comment on them though.
  • The animation at the start is also just a place-holder.
  • At some places there will be comments from someone named "CJ". These are my comments. They may detract from the game, but they are important things that I hope will become discussion points.
  • There are some gaps in content, which will likely be covered by my comments.
  • Although it has not been implemented, there is a lot of set-up already done for the language study part and other features.
  • Because it will be teaching a language, the game is going to be paced differently to many other games.
  • My hope is to use voice actors for the Japanese parts to help teach correct pronunciation. Possibly for some of the English too. I have 6 people interested in providing voices so far.



My hope is that you all will be kind enough to tear this game apart so it can be reconstructed into something much better. Please be brutal. :D



Download: Win32 [27.8 MiB], Mac[35.3 MiB], Linux[33.7 MiB]

TrickWithAKnife wrote:Anyway, here is a LINK to the missing folder. The content needs to be extracted in the game/Characters folder. It will create the Steve folder.




Previous downloads: v0.1: 66


Editing this out because this project has almost no resemblance to the original post. There have been so many changes and improvements that I worry that this topic will give a bad impression. Hopefully I will be able to reveal a lot more publicly in the second half of 2014.
Last edited by TrickWithAKnife on Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#2 Post by Sapphi » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:00 pm

Initial thoughts while playing:
- The letter from Uncle Steve is hard to read, owing to the small text and script-y font. I suggest narrating what it says in the text window while showing it.
- I hope that in the final version, Jack will fill his visa application out with a pen instead of a red crayon.
- Uh oh...

Code: Select all

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "game/Scenes.rpy", line 256, in script
IOError: Couldn't find file 'Characters/Jack/Isabella surprised face.png'.
- Not sure I like the choice of music so far. It is a nice track on its own, but it has a "calmly anxious" feel to it and even sounds a little sad. If I were in Jack's shoes, I would be "ZOMG SO EXCITED!" and the music playing in my head would be a lot more cheerful.
- I find it a little strange that even if you pick the highest choice available for how much Japanese you know, you still don't understand "Oyasumi". Probably better for the purposes of teaching that you don't, but it's still weird that despite your choice, your character doesn't understand a basic expression.
- The music is now giving me a headache so I'm turning it off.
- Dave: "I'll give you a hand with ordering, seeing as you've been Japan all of five minutes."
- I'm kind of hoping that when you get voice actors for the Japanese speech, you will use kana instead of romanji in the text window.... or at least alongside the romanji somehow.
- "Ni hyaku nana en desu" - supposed to be "Ni hyaku nana yen desu"?
- "Japanese people say 'en' though" - Oh, okay. XD
- Uh oh, I can't progress further than the pay phone. Every time I try to click and drag on the coins, they jump over to the upper-left hand corner and stick there. I'm not sure if it's on my end or not (I'm having graphics glitches with the cursor and the say window, but I'm pretty sure that's my computer being stupid) because at one point when they were discussing money, I rolled back and suddenly this came up:

Code: Select all

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "game/Scenes.rpy", line 645, in script
  File "game/called.rpy", line 989, in python
AttributeError: 'Drag' object has no attribute 'x'

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\execution.py", line 265, in run
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\ast.py", line 396, in execute
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\exports.py", line 701, in say
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\character.py", line 770, in __call__
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\character.py", line 664, in do_display
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\character.py", line 471, in display_say
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\ui.py", line 237, in interact
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 1798, in interact
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 2036, in interact_core
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 246, in visit_all
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 246, in visit_all
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 246, in visit_all
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 248, in visit_all
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\core.py", line 2036, in <lambda>
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\screen.py", line 155, in per_interact
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\screen.py", line 247, in update
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\screenlang.py", line 1166, in __call__
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\python.py", line 977, in py_exec_bytecode
  File "game/called.rpy", line 989, in <module>
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\ui.py", line 435, in __call__
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\Sapphicatific\My Documents\My Pictures\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\display\dragdrop.py", line 234, in __init__
AttributeError: 'Drag' object has no attribute 'x'

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#3 Post by Kinjo » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

I've been looking forward to a demo of this for a while, it really caught my interest. I've taken three years of Japanese classes in the past, but they won't be offered at the university I'm going to, so I have to study on my own to learn anything new. So I'm hoping this game will help teach me something new (or remind me of things I've forgotten).

That said, I've already finished the demo. I picked the second-most-proficient option (know some words and phrases, not necessarily conversations) and also picked the most-proficient reading option (that I know Hiragana, Katakana, and some Kanji) which are both true. Although on second thought I definitely know enough to last in a conversation (and understand some) but I didn't feel comfortable picking the highest level of proficiency. I also thought it was odd that my character didn't know "oyasumi" ... I know what it means, just not really in that context. Maybe have him think in his head about what it might mean, but he isn't totally sure.

On the contrary to Sapphi, I actually enjoyed the music. It was nice, calm, and relaxing. Though I'm assuming you'll spice things up with different music here and there, I got kind of attached to it after a while, so I really didn't mind listening to it the whole way through (but that's just me).

I was definitely surprised to see 3D-models being used as sprites, but you said most graphics are placeholders. Are you going to be using 2D sprites in the final version? Normally I dislike 3D models used as VN sprites, but the game seems to have a very realistic atmosphere about it, which kind of makes them fit, so I'm not sure what you plan on using for sprites.

I also got that error with the missing sprite, but not the other one at the payphone. I guess I know how to use Japanese payphones!
I grabbed the 100 yen coin and put it into the slot. Game progressed just fine afterward.
One downside is that the game really takes a while to get into the plot (arriving at Uncle Steve's place). Things start to pick up when
you go to the Irish pub (although I initially chose the sushi place, oh well lol). I was disappointed that the demo ended shortly after that, in addition to the fact that a few scenes haven't been written, but that's probably a good thing since that means I want to see more.


One of the things I liked most is, of course, the fact that this game teaches Japanese. It's a fun diversion from simply reading the story, and it feels like I'm trying to play along and figure out what everyone is saying in Japanese. Maybe to someone less proficient it might seem impossible to understand (and thus really boring because they have no idea what's going on until they tell you in English) but for me it was entertaining to try and figure it out as it happened, and see if I translated it correctly in my head. Maybe giving players just a bit more incentive to do that would keep them hooked until they finally meet up with Steve? Not saying I wasn't hooked, but not everyone out there knows as much Japanese as I do, so they could get bored.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it! Definitely looking forward to more, as I think the idea of a Japanese-teaching VN is really neat!

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#4 Post by Victoria Jennings » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:59 pm

They come in useful in so many other situations.
Probably should say "come in handy" or something to that effect, hehe.
feel free to get aquianted in the meantime.
acquainted*
That peaked my curiosity.
piqued*

Just a few mistakes I noticed. I'm really looking forward to the finished product. C:

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#5 Post by Sharm » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:19 pm

On the writing:
Starting with the person waking up is really typical and boring. This is the part of the story where you show what normal is before you shake things up. Maybe our MC just came home from the mall and the Mom berates you for whiling away every day.
Having some sort of one month pause before leaving isn't necessary for me. It's a game, a little suspension of disbelief is fine.
When Uncle Steve is talking about visiting he says "more often" pretty often.
Why were you invited but not your sibling? It sounded like they wanted to come.

On graphics:
It's odd that your mail has no address. It would be less jarring if it had illegible text.

On game play:
Will you have more options for filling out the visa? I really like this idea for customizing your character.
I'm not sure I see the point of having someone wander around looking for someone. Unless this is going to be a common game play mechanic, or unless you have a purpose for it besides what I see, I think you should drop it and let the narrative do the work there.
I'm looking forward to hearing Dave voiced, I really enjoy the New Zealand accent.

On random things:
I wanted to order the stake too. You should make the other guys order off of the menu so I don't get jealous.

Overall this looks like a huge endeavor, but a really great one. The pace of learning is going to be the real question. I really like the mixing in of cultural knowledge with the language, it will help give context to what's being learned and help me remember. I'm really looking forward to a finished project where I can "live" in japan and learn some Japanese!
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#6 Post by Victoria Jennings » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:26 pm

Sharm wrote:I'm not sure I see the point of having someone wander around looking for someone. Unless this is going to be a common game play mechanic, or unless you have a purpose for it besides what I see, I think you should drop it and let the narrative do the work there.
I'm pretty sure it's to get the player used to how Japanese buildings/areas are typically structured.

One of my favorite games ever, The World Ends With You, is set in Shibuya, and the map is so accurate that I'm pretty sure I could navigate myself around the real life Shibuya with little difficulty. That's the point.

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#7 Post by Sharm » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:37 pm

If it's going to be accurate that would be a good reason. It might help the realism to have some idea where you might find him. I don't remember there being any directions or indications that it would be tricky to find him.
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [KN]

#8 Post by Arowana » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:20 pm

Cool, I remember hearing about this game in another thread! So exciting to get a first look at it :D I’m taking notes as I play through, so I’ll list my thoughts out in the order I have them. Hopefully it’s not too confusing!

**

I don’t know if [KN] is really the best label for this game. Perhaps [Educational], [Edutainment], or [Learning Japanese] is not much better, but it may give players a more accurate idea of what the game is about.

I also think the font in the letter is a bit small and difficult to read. Perhaps you could increase the font size and make the letter multiple pages, or stick it in a scrollable viewport?

Nice touch having an actual visa application to set the character stats! I’m assuming more of it will be customizable in the final game? It might be nice to emphasize the area that players are supposed to fill in (e.g. by darkening the rest of the screen, using an animated arrow, etc.) for each step, since the screen is quite busy.

I think there should generally be commas before/around a person’s name when you are addressing them. For instance, “Morning Izzy” should be “Morning, Izzy” and “You OK miss?” should be “You okay, miss?” Haha, and this may be my pet peeve, but I’d rather see “Okay” than “OK” in proper writing.

Hahaha, my character seriously didn’t learn any Japanese before going to work in Japan? :lol: I find that a bit hard to believe, especially since she presumably had a month or so. Was she really busy or lazy or something?

Overall, the beginning is a bit slow imo. If the mom and sibling do not reappear in the game, perhaps it would be more interesting to start after you’ve already accepted the invitation from Uncle Steve. I’d say you could even start as late as arriving at the airport and freaking out over being in Japan, since that’s when the story really begins. Or perhaps a more action-y scene, where you are running around being lost and panicking, haha.

It might also be nice to give the story more of an initial “hook” – a goal our character wants to accomplish or something they want to find out, to drive the story forward. Perhaps Uncle Steve is an eccentric guy no one else in your family knows much about, so there’s a bit of mystery to his character and company? Maybe the MC has an ulterior reason for wanting to go to Japan that they aren’t revealing quite yet? Maybe you run into a Japanese person having a strange problem at the beginning, and you regret that can’t communicate well enough with them to help or even know what is going on (they could potentially turn into a reoccurring character, and you eventually learn more and more about them as your Japanese improves)? Lol, I’m just making up tons of random scenarios in my head now. :P

As far as I can tell, switching my current Japanese level has no effect – my character always acts like a total newbie who doesn’t know any Japanese words/culture regardless of what I pick. I’m assuming you haven’t programmed in different dialogues yet? When you do, it would be nice to give the player the option to acknowledge when they already know certain words (like you could pick between "I have no idea what that means" or some suitable reply, but add the word to the vocab list/notebook either way).

It might be nice to italicize the romanji to make it stand out. I quite like the suggestion of putting Japanese characters over the romanji, though this might require you to move the text out of the textbox to have enough space. Hmm, maybe a speech bubble screen would be useful? Maybe you could even show romanji/hiragana/kanji/katakana on different lines in the bubble, or have buttons people press to see the different ones (and possibly a “cheat sheet” English translation button haha)? Ooh, or you could put buttons like that on the side of the textbox. Then depending on what button is currently selected, the romanji in the textbox is replaced by hiragana, etc.

I have gotten drag errors identical to Sapphi’s, but mine appear if I try to rollback while Dave is talking about the money on the table.

Ooh, the drag and drop payphone screen is cool! (Out of curiosity, what does it actually say on the phone? I see that I can use either the 10 yen or 100 yen coin, but I’m not sure why).

The station maze minigame is also cool, but I’m not entirely sure what the purpose is. Maybe you could use it to teach some Japanese characters for different directions or common signs?

For the food menu at the pub, you might just want to show the items you can actually choose from. Like for the first choice, only show the entrees. Then for the drink choice, only show the drinks. So sad I can’t pick any desserts – I just wanted the strawberry cheesecake haha.

Lol, I think it’s a bit funny that all the named characters so far are men with English names. When are the Japanese people and girls coming? :wink: Hmm, it could be interesting to meet and try to communicate with a Japanese character who doesn’t know much English. Kind of the opposite of the MC, you know. And we could learn from each other! Right now, I feel so n00b in comparison to the other characters lol – my MC is constantly talking about how much better all the dudes are haha.

The scene menu is a nice idea! Just fyi, when I pick a scene from the menu instead of starting the game from the beginning, there’s no music.

**

All-in-all, I think you’re off to a great start! You’ve clearly put a lot of thought and work into this game, and it will definitely be useful for newbies like me to learn Japanese. :) Good luck with the final version!
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#9 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:07 pm

Wow, I was worried that I wouldn't get any comments, or they would be something unhelpful like "this sucks" or "this is alright".
Instead I received a lot of very helpful ideas and thoughts.


Sapphi
I'm kind of hoping that when you get voice actors for the Japanese speech, you will use kana instead of romanji in the text window.... or at least alongside the romanji somehow.
I'm planning to have an option to choose between kana and romanji in the final version.
At this point I'm making a lot of changes, so having just romanji makes it a little easier to do corrections.

Sapphi
Uh oh, I can't progress further than the pay phone
That is a bit of a worry. I may just cut that part out and show coins being put into the phone instead. Even if most people don't have the problem, I want everyone to be able to play smoothly.


Kinjo
Are you going to be using 2D sprites in the final version?
Not really sure at this point. I wanted to see what other people think.
I did find someone who was interested in doing 2D sprites, but I haven't heard from them in a while.

@Victoria Jennings

Thanks. Believe it or not, I'm an English teacher, but still made those mistakes.
I hope the people here who speak English as a second language will feel better about their English abilities after seeing mine.

Sharm
Having some sort of one month pause before leaving isn't necessary for me. It's a game, a little suspension of disbelief is fine.
I was a bit worried that it would seem like the game is jumping all over the place. I don't want to player's to get confused. Also, later the dates will become more important.

Sharm
Why were you invited but not your sibling? It sounded like they wanted to come.
Well, at the start there is only one space in Steve's company. I don't want to spoil it too much, but there may be a chance for the sibling to come to Japan later...

Sharm
It's odd that your mail has no address. It would be less jarring if it had illegible text.
I thought about that too. The blank envelope was just me being lazy with the placeholder art.

Sharm
Will you have more options for filling out the visa? I really like this idea for customizing your character.
Arowana
Nice touch having an actual visa application to set the character stats! I’m assuming more of it will be customizable in the final game? It might be nice to emphasize the area that players are supposed to fill in (e.g. by darkening the rest of the screen, using an animated arrow, etc.) for each step, since the screen is quite busy.
Hmmm, I didn't think about that. One problem that keeps coming up a lot is the main character's country. My plan was to leave it a mystery, but it would be possibly for the player to choose the country and city while filling out the visa.
For the visa and many other interactive screens there will be a hidden timer running. If the player hasn't progressed in a certain amount of time, something will happen to help guide them, for example have the main character think to themselves "Hmmm.... I guess I should tick one of the boxes."


Sharm
I'm not sure I see the point of having someone wander around looking for someone. Unless this is going to be a common game play mechanic, or unless you have a purpose for it besides what I see, I think you should drop it and let the narrative do the work there.
I wanted the player to experience getting lost in a large train station, because it happens to a lot of non-Japanese people when they come to Japan.
Personally I have a lot of experience getting lost in some of Tokyo's monstrously huge train stations. Also, in the real version of the game, I will try to use the real layout of Tokyo station, and give the player opportunities to do different things, such as ask people for help, use a payphone to call the uncle, try finding a map, etc.
So yeah, I wanted to add it because I think it will be useful for many people who come to Japan.


Sharm
I'm looking forward to hearing Dave voiced, I really enjoy the New Zealand accent.
I'm probably going to do the voice of Dave myself (If he is voiced). Although I am a NZer, I haven't lived in NZ for about 5 years, so my accent is not very strong anymore.

Sharm
I wanted to order the stake too. You should make the other guys order off of the menu so I don't get jealous.
Haha, don't worry, that menu was just a quick one I through together. All the menus will have more options, plus Japanese text. Some will have English too, some will have none.
I'll add prices too, and try to keep them realistic. I want people who play this game to be able to come to Japan and know if what they are buying is a good deal or not.

Arowana
Hahaha, my character seriously didn’t learn any Japanese before going to work in Japan?
Yeah, it is a bit unrealistic, but I needed to keep in mind that some people who are playing the game will have no Japanese ability at all. For them, controlling a character that already knows some Japanese may become frustrating.

Arowana
Overall, the beginning is a bit slow imo. If the mom and sibling do not reappear in the game, perhaps it would be more interesting to start after you’ve already accepted the invitation from Uncle Steve.
When I put out other mini-demos in our own forum, the biggest complaint I heard was "it's too much at once", and "I felt overwhelmed", so I had to slow things down a lot on purpose.
I am trying to find ways to make it more interesting without an information overload, but a lot of that comes down to writing ability, which is not my strong point.
The mother, sibling and Dave will all reappear in the game later. There will be a lot of characters in the game, but they will be spaced out, and I'd like to re-use characters where I can.
I'm sure the players don't want to spend half the game trying to remember who they are talking too, and I'm too lazy to write extra characters if I don't need to.


Arowana
As far as I can tell, switching my current Japanese level has no effect – my character always acts like a total newbie who doesn’t know any Japanese words/culture regardless of what I pick. I’m assuming you haven’t programmed in different dialogues yet? When you do, it would be nice to give the player the option to acknowledge when they already know certain words (like you could pick between "I have no idea what that means" or some suitable reply, but add the word to the vocab list/notebook either way).
I'm thinking a lot about this. I do need to adjust the current content to change more depending on the player's Japanese ability. A tricky one is that they could know some common words, but may not know others. There will be ways of finding out the vocabulary they know later, but you are right that I need to do some of it sooner.
I have also been thinking about having symbols pop up during conversations that the player can click if they want to ask questions, say something in Japanese, or whatever else.
I'm not sure if that would be annoying to some players though, but it not, I could have them appear, but the conversation would still continue if they player doesn't choose to click any of those icons.

The next scenes will be the player getting the alien registration card (I'm hesitating on finishing this part yet until I learn the next system that was implimented a couple of weeks ago), opening a bank account, and then getting a new phone.
Originally I had planned having a notebook that the main character will automatically write now Japanese with definitions into. There were some problems making it look realistic (keeping in mind there may be 2,000 or more words plus definitions for all of them), and how to search the notebook.
In the end I decided to use a smartphone instead, that way I can change the vocabulary lists easily, and scrollable word lists would look more realistic.
Not only that, but there are a lot of other features that can be done through a smartphone.


Arowana
It might also be nice to give the story more of an initial “hook” – a goal our character wants to accomplish or something they want to find out, to drive the story forward. Perhaps Uncle Steve is an eccentric guy no one else in your family knows much about, so there’s a bit of mystery to his character and company? Maybe the MC has an ulterior reason for wanting to go to Japan that they aren’t revealing quite yet? Maybe you run into a Japanese person having a strange problem at the beginning, and you regret that can’t communicate well enough with them to help or even know what is going on (they could potentially turn into a reoccurring character, and you eventually learn more and more about them as your Japanese improves)? Lol, I’m just making up tons of random scenarios in my head now.
Originally people in our forum said it was a bit strange getting an invitation to Japan from someone they don't know well, so I decided to make Steve be someone they know quite well instead.
There are ulterior motives for the trip to Japan, but that will be revealed much later.
Please feel free to share as many scenarios you think of. Learning a language is a long process, so I need a lot of interesting scenarios to keep the player from getting bored.
Maybe we can use your ideas, or modify them for what we need.


Arowana
I quite like the suggestion of putting Japanese characters over the romanji, though this might require you to move the text out of the textbox to have enough space. Hmm, maybe a speech bubble screen would be useful? Maybe you could even show romanji/hiragana/kanji/katakana on different lines in the bubble, or have buttons people press to see the different ones (and possibly a “cheat sheet” English translation button haha)? Ooh, or you could put buttons like that on the side of the textbox. Then depending on what button is currently selected, the romanji in the textbox is replaced by hiragana, etc.
To be honest, I'm not sure how to do some of that.
I do like the idea of having a small button on screen to switch between kana and romanji though.


Arowana
The scene menu is a nice idea!
Originally I put it in just to make testing faster, but I could tidy it up for players.


Arowana
When are the Japanese people and girls coming? Hmm, it could be interesting to meet and try to communicate with a Japanese character who doesn’t know much English. Kind of the opposite of the MC, you know. And we could learn from each other! Right now, I feel so n00b in comparison to the other characters lol – my MC is constantly talking about how much better all the dudes are haha.
There will be some conversations in Japanese on the train to Tokyo station, and in Tokyo station the player can *try* talking to Japanese people.
Fairly soon the player will be introduced to their future workmates, many of whom will be Japanese.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#10 Post by Sapphi » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:54 pm

TrickWithAKnife wrote:Wow, I was worried that I wouldn't get any comments, or they would be something unhelpful like "this sucks" or "this is alright".
Instead I received a lot of very helpful ideas and thoughts.
Well, you specifically asked so that is what you got. :)

TrickWithAKnife wrote: I'm planning to have an option to choose between kana and romanji in the final version.
At this point I'm making a lot of changes, so having just romanji makes it a little easier to do corrections.
I figured so. I think in the final version you should also have some kind of BIG NOTE: "Romanji is a crutch! Wean yourself from it ASAP!"
TrickWithAKnife wrote:
Uh oh, I can't progress further than the pay phone
That is a bit of a worry. I may just cut that part out and show coins being put into the phone instead. Even if most people don't have the problem, I want everyone to be able to play smoothly.
Well, that would be a shame, since it was a cool idea. :(
When I have the time, I'll try to go back and play through it again and see if I can get it to work. The fact that there was an error report and that both Arowana and I only encountered it upon rollback suggests a fixable cause. And in the end, if it's working for everyone else, I don't think you should cut anything out to compensate for one person, because:

New Ren'Py games in general have been acting funny on my machine; until now I was able to solve the problem by holding shift while opening the game and forcing software rendering, but in this case it isn't helping. Although it is probably a bad idea to beta-test a game in such an environment, I went ahead and did so anyway because the graphical glitches weren't bad enough to keep me from reading. Anyway, if you fix the coding errors and the drag function still behaves strangely for me, I think we can safely conclude it's just a case of my computer being anemic. (Ahh... anemic computer... that's so moe... ;w;)
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#11 Post by Reikun » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:59 am

This is going to be a semi-stream-of-consciousness review. I'm just typing up notes as I play along so sorry in advance if anything comes off as rude! ((Note: I am NOT fluent in Japanese, though I have self-studied/taken classes for about 4 years))

Some notes on the Japanese:
- If you pick the highest proficiency answer about your conversational level/understanding of Japanese, your character should at least know what Oyasumi means.
- The scene with the ordering tea/coffee in the airport after you arrive is too informal (especially on the store person's part). Try to use the polite phrases so that the conversation should flow more like:
店の人:いらっしゃいませ --> Irasshaimase (Welcome)
Dave: お茶、ひとつください。 (If he's ordering for himself too, add that in his script) --> Ocha, hitotsu kudasai (One tea please)
店の人:かしこまりました。二百七十円です。 --> Kashikomarimashita (Certainly). Ni-hyaku shichi-jyuu en desu (That's 270 yen).
//give the money
店の人: まいどありがとうございました。 --> Maido arigatou gozaimashita (Thank you for your patronage)
I feel that when they teach Japanese in the States, there is definitely NOT ENOUGH stress on polite forms and keigo (honorific speech). If you want to teach people Japanese in your game I think it is vital that keigo is taught before the casual/conversational forms. Conversational speech is easier to learn and it's a tough habit to break when you begin speaking casually and then need to speak politely. It's much more forgiving to speak in polite terms in most situations than it is to speak casually in most situations. Granted, if you want this to be like "learning as you go" (to make sense with the just-arrived-in-Japan story), there will be times when casual speech will be what you would normally pick up first. However, it's still important to make sure keigo is included, especially since you're supposed to be in Japan for work (a setting in which keigo is often used).

Question! At the "Issho ni desu ka?" part, is the store guy asking if they are going to order together? Or if they are "together"?? Not sure what you were trying to say.

- The coins: You may want to explain the reason why coins have a hole in them instead of just pushing it aside like "Oh, what a neat factoid."

- When you're going to have the finger pointing at the 円, it might "miss" because I noticed early on that the money can be dragged around. Consider showing a frame that displays the kanji in a large, readable font instead?

- I LOVED THE PART WHERE YOU'RE NAVIGATING THE STATION. What an awesome way to make you feel lost in Japan!!!

- Caught this error after you meet Uncle Steve and talk to him a little

Code: Select all

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "game/Scenes.rpy", line 897, in script
SyntaxError: invalid syntax (game/Scenes.rpy, line 897)

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\execution.py", line 265, in run
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\ast.py", line 1374, in execute
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\python.py", line 1014, in py_eval
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\python.py", line 259, in py_compile
SyntaxError: invalid syntax (game/Scenes.rpy, line 897)

Windows-post2008Server-6.1.7600
Ren'Py 6.13.9.1702
A Ren'Py Game 0.1
Ignoring it brings up another error

Code: Select all

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "game/Scenes.rpy", line 904, in script
SyntaxError: invalid syntax (game/Scenes.rpy, line 904)

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\execution.py", line 265, in run
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\ast.py", line 1374, in execute
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\python.py", line 1014, in py_eval
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\VNs\CJ's Japanese Game-all\renpy\python.py", line 259, in py_compile
SyntaxError: invalid syntax (game/Scenes.rpy, line 904)

Windows-post2008Server-6.1.7600
Ren'Py 6.13.9.1702
A Ren'Py Game 0.1
And then the game continues....

------

I got as far as the Irish Pub scene, so I have yet to play through the rest of the demo! I'll spare you an even bigger wall of text and just comment again later xD

Nice work so far! I actually think the 3d characters are really fitting since you'll be using real photographers for all your other graphics huh? I would suggest not to use too much filtering though (like on the phone. I thought it was a bit much) so that people can actually SEE what things look like in Japan.

EDIT:
What kind of romanization are you using? I noticed you spelt "dozo," whereas I normally type "douzo" (since that's how you would type it to get the hiragana). I know there are different systems for romanization, so if you're planning on using the "dozo" one, don't forget you need the macron over the o: "dōzo"
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#12 Post by Arowana » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:47 am

Ah, you actually used my "edutainment" label! :lol:
Hahaha, my character seriously didn’t learn any Japanese before going to work in Japan?
Yeah, it is a bit unrealistic, but I needed to keep in mind that some people who are playing the game will have no Japanese ability at all. For them, controlling a character that already knows some Japanese may become frustrating.
Oh no, I have nothing against the MC not knowing any Japanese. I just think there should a bit more of an in-story justification for it. Like the MC didn't have as much time to prepare, they were meaning to study more but got busy with other things/procrastinated, etc. I know the latter always happens to me. :D
When I put out other mini-demos in our own forum, the biggest complaint I heard was "it's too much at once", and "I felt overwhelmed", so I had to slow things down a lot on purpose.
Do you mean too much vocabulary and information at once, or too much story and plot at once? If it's the former, I think you could still make the beginning more exciting without have to dump a lot of info. Waking up in the morning is just not very exciting imo. ^^; Perhaps you could start off with a scene with a bit more action - being nervous on the plane, arriving in Japan, getting lost, etc.- and then flashback to when you received Uncle Steve's letter or something?
I'm thinking a lot about this. I do need to adjust the current content to change more depending on the player's Japanese ability. A tricky one is that they could know some common words, but may not know others. There will be ways of finding out the vocabulary they know later, but you are right that I need to do some of it sooner.
Hmm, how about when a new word like "oyasumi" comes up in the beginning, the player has to pick the correct meaning/response from several options on a menu (one of which can be "I have no idea" lol)?
I have also been thinking about having symbols pop up during conversations that the player can click if they want to ask questions, say something in Japanese, or whatever else.
I'm not sure if that would be annoying to some players though, but it not, I could have them appear, but the conversation would still continue if they player doesn't choose to click any of those icons.
Like a question mark button on the side would light up or something whenever a question could be asked? Hmm, would it be clear what question you would be asking before you clicked on it, though? I think this could be interesting, but would have to see an example first to understand how it works.
Originally people in our forum said it was a bit strange getting an invitation to Japan from someone they don't know well, so I decided to make Steve be someone they know quite well instead. There are ulterior motives for the trip to Japan, but that will be revealed much later.
Lol! I guess that's true. :lol: Who was inviting you originally, if I may ask?

Ooh, if there are ulterior motives, maybe that would be worth hinting at earlier, since you'd want to get far enough to figure them out.
To be honest, I'm not sure how to do some of that.
I do like the idea of having a small button on screen to switch between kana and romanji though.
The first way that comes to mind is to use an if statement with multiple cases, checking which button is selected, every time there is Japanese text. I imagine you could probably write a function to do something along those lines as well.
Are you going to be using 2D sprites in the final version?
Not really sure at this point. I wanted to see what other people think.
I would prefer 2D sprites, honestly. Or if you can't get an artist, maybe filter/trace some photos. 3D renders are a bit off-putting imo. Uncanny valley and all that.
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#13 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:05 pm

Sapphi wrote:I think in the final version you should also have some kind of BIG NOTE: "Romanji is a crutch! Wean yourself from it ASAP!"
I have no intentions of saying that. The characters in the game may bring it up however...
Reikun wrote: If you pick the highest proficiency answer about your conversational level/understanding of Japanese, your character should at least know what Oyasumi means.
Yeah, this is a silly thing I missed.
Reikun wrote: The scene with the ordering tea/coffee in the airport after you arrive is too informal (especially on the store person's part).
Another scene that I forgot to check the Japanese in.

Actually I have a few Japanese people who are quite happy to help correct the Japanese in the game, including my wife.

As for using keigo, it will be case by case. Of course it's important to speak politely, but I also want to make it realistic for the situation, so there will be a mixture.
I will try to make it clear when there is a difference though.

One think I've noticed in almost all language textbooks (not just Japanese) is that the speech tends to be technically correct, but not how the native speakers actually talk.

This means when the main character is talking to their Japanese friends, there will be all kinds of natural speech, such as "eto", "nan dake", "ne", dou shio kana", etc.
But as you said, keigo is also important too, so that will be taught, with a clear indication of what kind of Japanese it is, and when it's appropriate to use that kind.

When they talk to different characters or are in different settings (at work, with friends, on the train, talking to elderly people or children), the characters will speak in different ways.

The goal of the language study is to teach the player the Japanese they will really hear and use. I have also included grammar from N5 and N4 JLPT, but am not focussing on test Japanese.
Reikun wrote: Question! At the "Issho ni desu ka?" part, is the store guy asking if they are going to order together? Or if they are "together"?? Not sure what you were trying to say.
It was meant to be something like "Are you paying together?", but I forgot again to check what the correct Japanese should be.
Reikun wrote: You may want to explain the reason why coins have a hole in them instead of just pushing it aside like "Oh, what a neat factoid."
I've never even thought of it before, and have no idea why there are holes in some coins.
Reikun wrote: When you're going to have the finger pointing at the 円, it might "miss" because I noticed early on that the money can be dragged around. Consider showing a frame that displays the kanji in a large, readable font instead?
Actually, there is no real reason for the coins to be draggable, except that I was reusing code from the payphone section.
I'm in the process of finding out what the laws are regarding showing cash in games, so the final images will depend on what they say.
You do bring up a good point though. It's much more useful for the player if they can see the money clearer.
Reikun wrote: Nice work so far! I actually think the 3d characters are really fitting since you'll be using real photographers for all your other graphics huh? I would suggest not to use too much filtering though (like on the phone. I thought it was a bit much) so that people can actually SEE what things look like in Japan.
There seems to be a mixed reaction to using 3D characters. All of the characters there now I put together quite quickly, so if I did continue with them, the future versions would be improved a lot. But to have a good variety would cost money, so it all depends if I go the free or paid route, or if I can apply for kickstarter sponsorship in the future.

As for the backgrounds, most of those images were googled. I do actually have a lot of photos that I have taken for the game myself though.
Because I want to have as much variety as possible, but not increase the workload by an unrealistic amount, I'm still deciding the best method.
The original plan was to take photos myself and edit them with photoshop to look like they were painted, but the results so far are not so impressive, and the time involved for doing a better job would be a big problem.
A problem with using photos is copyright. There are many things that I would like to take photos of, but I'm not sure what the laws are regarding photographing real businesses, products, etc.
Reikun wrote: What kind of romanization are you using? I noticed you spelt "dozo," whereas I normally type "douzo" (since that's how you would type it to get the hiragana). I know there are different systems for romanization, so if you're planning on using the "dozo" one, don't forget you need the macron over the o: "dōzo"
I want to do a bit of research about that to find what is more appealing to players, or more useful.
Personally I tend to use the macrons on paper, but I'm not sure how to write them on a computer.
Arowana wrote: I have nothing against the MC not knowing any Japanese. I just think there should a bit more of an in-story justification for it. Like the MC didn't have as much time to prepare, they were meaning to study more but got busy with other things/procrastinated, etc.
That should be easy for me to change.
Arowana wrote: Do you mean too much vocabulary and information at once, or too much story and plot at once?
I presumed it was too much vocabulary and information. To be fair, the player was getting bombarded with new Japanese in the previous versions. People with some Japanese ability might be okay, but people with no Japanese ability would be scared away very quickly.
Arowana wrote: I think you could still make the beginning more exciting without have to dump a lot of info. Waking up in the morning is just not very exciting imo.
This is where my lack of writing skill shows through. The original idea I had for the start was far more absurd to say the least.
Arowana wrote: Perhaps you could start off with a scene with a bit more action - being nervous on the plane, arriving in Japan, getting lost, etc.- and then flashback to when you received Uncle Steve's letter or something?

Someone else made a similar suggestion, but we realised that having a flashback would mean a lot of work trying to find another way to let the player choose which character they will control, and none of the ideas we could come up with fitted in smoother than using the visa.

There are actually some other things happening in the code with those early scenes that players won't be aware of. I have a bunch of variables keeping track of not only the Japanese side, but also the way the main character interacts with different people, which in turn will affect how those characters interact with them. It will also change the available menu choices sometimes too. There are some things I want to try figuring out fairly early, which are in the first few scenes.
Arowana wrote: Hmm, how about when a new word like "oyasumi" comes up in the beginning, the player has to pick the correct meaning/response from several options on a menu (one of which can be "I have no idea" lol)?
Possibly, but I have to be careful not to bombard the player with too many menus every time they encounter new Japanese.
It may not be so smooth in the start, but I have an insane number of variables for tracking the player's Japanese skill, which will become more accurate the longer the player plays.
For example, I'm not just tracking if they know each word, but also how they heard the word, what they may think the word means, what it actually means, additional information about the words that they discover later through lessons or experience, how often they have encountered the word before and after learning the meaning, whether they understand the word well enough to recall it, or just enough to understand when they hear it. There are a few other things, but I'm taking the study side of it very seriously.

In fact, going back to whether this game will be free or paid, if it is paid, I want to hire a proper Japanese language teacher to help design the lessons that will appear later in the game. My ability is not even close to high enough to teach anyone more than common vocabulary.
Arowana wrote: Who was inviting you originally, if I may ask?
Inviting me to Japan? It's kind of a long story. The short version is that I wanted to learn another language, and when I heard Jin Kazama speak both Japanese and English in Tekken, I thought it sounded awesome, so my study started from that day. The study eventually led me to coming to Japan.
Arowana wrote: Ooh, if there are ulterior motives, maybe that would be worth hinting at earlier, since you'd want to get far enough to figure them out.
Good point. I'll drop a few vague clues here and there.
Arowana wrote: I would prefer 2D sprites, honestly. Or if you can't get an artist, maybe filter/trace some photos. 3D renders are a bit off-putting imo. Uncanny valley and all that.
The jury seems to be split on 2D sprites or 3D renders. To be fair, no-one really knows what the 2D sprites would look like, including myself.
As for filtering/tracing photos, I'm not really good at that. My attempts so far were not so impressive. After all the time I'm going to be putting into this game, I don't want to lower the quality with my lack of skill.
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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#14 Post by Victoria Jennings » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:42 pm

TrickWithAKnife wrote:In fact, going back to whether this game will be free or paid, if it is paid, I want to hire a proper Japanese language teacher to help design the lessons that will appear later in the game.
I think you should definitely do this. The game would be far more valuable, if a tad less accessible, if you were able to afford a sizable budget for it. I'd definitely pay up to $20 for it.
TrickWithAKnife wrote:My ability is not even close to high enough to teach anyone more than common vocabulary.
On that note, just out of curiosity, how fluent are you, exactly? 0:

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Re: Still-to-be-titled Japanese Game [Edutainment]

#15 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:05 pm

My Japanese is not good.
  • I can read Hiragana and Katakana smoothly.
  • I can only read about 100 Kanji, but wouldn't be able to write many of them on paper.
  • My vocabulary is just okay. If I had to use a number, I think I could recognize a few thousand words at least.
  • My pronunciation is quite good.
  • My speaking ability is low because I have (surprisingly) had very few opportunities to speak Japanese over the last 4 years. I forgot most grammar after coming to Japan.
  • My listening ability depends on the topic. If it's everyday conversation I can generally follow what is being said, but not complicated issues like politics.
  • I love lists
Before anyone says "how can someone with such terrible Japanese make a game that teaches Japanese?", I should mention that I have 3 Japanese people that I know well who are excited about being able to help me with the Japanese. One of those people is my wife, who of course I see every day.

That bad Japanese in the demo is stuff that I threw together as "place-holder Japanese", and forgot to ask to be corrected.
I won't just write my Japanese then have it corrected in the real game though. I will be sitting down with Japanese people and writing the Japanese parts with them.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

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